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Mother-In-Law Still under review 2 yrs now.

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npayne27
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Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by npayne27 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:44 am

Hello everyone,

I am a British Citizen exercising my rights for more than a year in Ireland working. My husband received his residence card a few months ago. We brought my mother-in-law over because she is also dependant on us and we have provided all documents proving this. INIS sent us a letter asking for further documents which we provided. We received a letter this morning saying her residence card was refused and her stamp 4 will expire in April and will not be renewed.

The reason for refusal was 'after assessing all documents she is not considered a qualifying family member and we did not show her dependency in this state on the EU Citizen.

I don't understand this because we sent EVERYTHING, tenancy agreement, bank statements, utility bills, EVERYTHING even showing that I pay for all of these things.

Please, we are in bits over this, in tears, she has no one if she goes home and we will have to send her money again, she has also settled here and loved being around her family.

What are our options?
We have to send an appeal within 15 days, but I will be sending the same documents they already have????
I just don't understand!

I work two jobs and have worked extremely hard to bring mother-in-law here and to keep our family afloat.

If we appeal and she is still refused then what? She can't go back home!

Can we move back to UK? We don't want to move back to UK, we have built a life here. God help us.

Please advise.

Thank you

shpirtshqipe
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 10:33 am

Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by shpirtshqipe » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:36 pm

Based on your information you have more than satisfied INIS that you are financially able to support your mother in law here in Ireland.

Can I ask what evidence you’ve submitted to prove your mother in law WAS dependent on you the EU Citizen before coming to Ireland? What were her social/financial/living circumstances back in her home country? The aforementioned need to be evidenced in paper to qualify your mother in law as Dependent on You (not your husband).

npayne27
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Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:43 am

Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by npayne27 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:00 pm

shpirtshqipe wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:36 pm
Based on your information you have more than satisfied INIS that you are financially able to support your mother in law here in Ireland.

Can I ask what evidence you’ve submitted to prove your mother in law WAS dependent on you the EU Citizen before coming to Ireland? What were her social/financial/living circumstances back in her home country? The aforementioned need to be evidenced in paper to qualify your mother in law as Dependent on You (not your husband).
Hello,

Thank you so much for responding. Before coming she applied for an EU treaty Rights C visa to join me and my family here. We supplied about a year and a half worth of western union receipts showing us constantly sending her money and a doctors letter explaining that she should be with her family due to her ailments. Her visa was granted after further documents were requested. They had no problems. Even the refusal for the residence card is based on the Regulations 3(5) which is for an application to join or accompany me, so I don't see how they can use this as a refusal because she already satisfied this regulation to get here. They didn't refuse her based on Regulation 6 which is for people who have been here for more than 3 months.

They said we didn't provide satisfactory documentation evidence of being dependent on me in this state, even though we sent them bank statements showing i pay all the bills, the rent, all the food, everything. Thats all she needs to live and I pay for it all, what other kind of dependency could they expect?

After seeing the doctor here, he said that she must get a long term illness card which entitles her to diabetes medicine. Would that be why they refused? I don't see that as an excuse to refuse her because we didn't even ask for the illness card! The doctor said anyone with a long-term illness gets it.

I am seriously stressed out. I just feel like crying all the time. I love her so much and can't bare the thought of her having to leave. Would we be able to relocate to the UK? We have built a life here. I'm just praying that review the appeal.

shpirtshqipe
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 10:33 am

Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by shpirtshqipe » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:48 pm

They said we didn't provide satisfactory documentation evidence of being dependent on me in this state, even though we sent them bank statements showing i pay all the bills, the rent, all the food, everything. Thats all she needs to live and I pay for it all, what other kind of dependency could they expect
INIS has refused the card because Proof of Dependency hasn’t been satisfactory. In order for your mother in law to qualify for the EUFAM in Ireland (dependent on you) she needs to show as much evidence of dependency in her home country first. The refusal has nothing to do with you (sponsor) not satisfying the ability to support her here in Ireland.

Unfortunately for us, you have to prove dependency at a reasonable level (INIS being difficult) so if you provided just the Western Union transfer and a letter from GP may not suffice. INIS can argue that unless she has a life threatening condition that can’t be treated in her home country this alone may not qualify her as “dependent” on you. Secondly the Western Union transfers whilst they’re invaluable evidence when presented alone may not automatically qualify applicant for EUFAM.

I’m making this sound all doom and gloom but,

Apart from the Western Union transfers what other evidence of dependency did you submit?

Questions for you?
1. Is your mother in law a widow, divorcee or married?
2. Does she have other children in her home country?
3. Does she own a property there?
4. Does she have savings or properties/business in home country?
5. If other children, does she live with them?
6. If other children do they provide financial support and can thus be evidenced?
7. If other children do they live in her home country or not?

npayne27
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Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:43 am

Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by npayne27 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:41 am

shpirtshqipe wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:48 pm
They said we didn't provide satisfactory documentation evidence of being dependent on me in this state, even though we sent them bank statements showing i pay all the bills, the rent, all the food, everything. Thats all she needs to live and I pay for it all, what other kind of dependency could they expect
INIS has refused the card because Proof of Dependency hasn’t been satisfactory. In order for your mother in law to qualify for the EUFAM in Ireland (dependent on you) she needs to show as much evidence of dependency in her home country first. The refusal has nothing to do with you (sponsor) not satisfying the ability to support her here in Ireland.

Unfortunately for us, you have to prove dependency at a reasonable level (INIS being difficult) so if you provided just the Western Union transfer and a letter from GP may not suffice. INIS can argue that unless she has a life threatening condition that can’t be treated in her home country this alone may not qualify her as “dependent” on you. Secondly the Western Union transfers whilst they’re invaluable evidence when presented alone may not automatically qualify applicant for EUFAM.

I’m making this sound all doom and gloom but,

Apart from the Western Union transfers what other evidence of dependency did you submit?

Questions for you?
1. Is your mother in law a widow, divorcee or married?
2. Does she have other children in her home country?
3. Does she own a property there?
4. Does she have savings or properties/business in home country?
5. If other children, does she live with them?
6. If other children do they provide financial support and can thus be evidenced?
7. If other children do they live in her home country or not?
Hi!

Actually they specifically stated that she has not provided satisfactory evidence of dependency in THIS state, not referring back to when she was in Ghana. I also give her money every week on top of paying for all the rent, bills and food so that she can buy stuff she wants, but we can't get a bank account for her because the banks won't accept any document other than a utility bill and she does not have that so I just give her money by hand. But still, all the evidence proves she is dependent on me.

Answers to your questions:
1. She is divorced. Husband and father of five children left and ran away to UK with another woman who could speak better English. He basically though my mum-in-law was useless.
2. She has 4 other children, two adults who can support her as they don't earn enough to even support their own families and two younger 18 year old who are at boarding school and go to live with the older brother when there is holiday.
3. She does not own a property. My husband owns the land she lived on but the house in inhabitable, no electric, running water and leaking roofs.
4. No savings.
5. She does not live with them, they were at boarding school and came to visit her. She used money we send her to cook food for all of them.
6. They don't provide other financial support as their income is too low, about $200 a month and they have 2 children themselves.
7. One of the older children lives in Nigeria and we hardly hear from him. Her other children live in Ghana too but far away in Kumasi and cannot financially support her.

shpirtshqipe
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 10:33 am

Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by shpirtshqipe » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:14 am

Please provide the exact extract of wording of refusal. This oddly strange since by default the EUFAM for a relative is usually being dependent on the EU Citizen.

Also sorry to be asking again but what other Dependency evidence back in Ghana was provided when applying for the EUFAM apart from Western Union & GP letter?

npayne27
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Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:43 am

Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by npayne27 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:25 am

shpirtshqipe wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:14 am
Please provide the exact extract of wording of refusal. This oddly strange since by default the EUFAM for a relative is usually being dependent on the EU Citizen.

Also sorry to be asking again but what other Dependency evidence back in Ghana was provided when applying for the EUFAM apart from Western Union & GP letter?
Hi, the exact wording was

On the basis of the documents supplied, the Minister has determined that you are not a qualifying family member as set out in Regulation 3(5) of the Regulations. You have failed to provide satisfactory documentary evidence to show that you are dependent of the EU Citizen, Nicola Geraldine Payne, in this State.

We also provided my husband;s land owner ship and lots of photos showing that we lived there with her for 3 months and she is a member of our household, even for the fact that she lives on our land in Ghana, but it is not fit for anyone to live there.

shpirtshqipe
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Posts: 224
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 10:33 am

Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by shpirtshqipe » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:32 am

Hi,

Your application has been refused because there's not enough evidence of dependency from country or origin provided to INIS upon application. As I explained before, Dependency must be proven from country of Origin. By default when applying for the EUFAM for a Permitted Family Member you are saying they are dependent on you in their country of origin hence you want them to stay with you here in Ireland. The refusal extract you provided refers to Proof of Dependency before entering Ireland. In order for your mother in law to remain "dependent of the EU Citizen, **********, in this State (as stated in refusal)" you must prove such dependency with "evidence from country of origin". To give you an example, my mother is dependent on me in the Irish state as a Permitted Family Member under the EU Treaty. I proved dependency by providing evidence from my country of origin.

See extract from the EU Directives pages 7 & 11:
(PAGE 07)...in cases falling under Article 3(2)(a), a document issued by the relevant authority in the country of origin or country from which they are arriving certifying that they are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen, or proof of the existence of serious health grounds which strictly require the personal care of the family member by the Union citizen;
(PAGE 11)..in order to decide whether to grant a permission under paragraph (a
), the Minister shall cause to be carried out an extensive examination of the personal circumstances of the applicant and shall have regard to the following:
(i) the extent and nature of the dependency;
(ii) in the case of financial dependency, the extent and duration of the financial support provided by the Union citizen or his or her spouse or civil partner to the applicant prior to the applicant’s coming to the State, having regard, amongst other relevant matters, to living costs in the country from which the applicant has come, whether the financial dependency can be satisfied by remittances to the applicant in the country from which he or she has come and other financial resources available to him or her;
(iii) in the case of dependency on serious health grounds which strictly require the personal care of the Union citizen or his or her spouse
12
[548] or civil partner, the nature of the serious health grounds concerned and the duration of the period in which they have existed;
Link to document: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015 ... ade/en/pdf

My advise to you would be to consider gathering the following evidence as per your replies to my questions.

Provide a letter covering in great details the following points:
Provide a divorce certificate. State you’re providing this as a means of proving she’s alone.
State on the cover letter that although she has other children you and your husband are the sole financial providers for her (re-attach Werstern Union letters). State how much the other siblings earn and if they have families of their own (obviously if they do what they earn they spend to support their families) so you can put things into context. Explain in more detail how her other children are basically unable to adequately support your mother in law therefore the burden falling squarely on you and your husband.
Provide land ownership under your husband’s name as proof she’s dependent on your husband for a place to live (by default then she becomes dependent on you since you’re married to her son) (for the purpose of proving dependency your mother in law is technically homeless). State clearly she lives in dire conditions without access to basic living utilities and re attach the photos you’ve already mentioned.
State the money she gets from you and husband is used for her day to day expenses and medical care not even enough to feed her children. You could also include the medical expenses on a monthly basis and perhaps the GP in Ghana can write another letter confirming the monthly cost incurring on your mother in law.
Other point to consider:
If your mother in law is of retirement age is she is in receipt of state pension. If yes provide certified proof of the amount she gets. If not, is there any official way you can prove it? i.e. get a certificate/testimony from social security etc?

The above suggestions are for you to consider as a means of proving dependency so you include, exclude or add more as you see fit. The way I see it anything provided gives you the chance of a positive outcome but obviously is not a guarantee.

npayne27
Newbie
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:43 am

Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by npayne27 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:34 am

shpirtshqipe wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:32 am
Hi,

Your application has been refused because there's not enough evidence of dependency from country or origin provided to INIS upon application. As I explained before, Dependency must be proven from country of Origin. By default when applying for the EUFAM for a Permitted Family Member you are saying they are dependent on you in their country of origin hence you want them to stay with you here in Ireland. The refusal extract you provided refers to Proof of Dependency before entering Ireland. In order for your mother in law to remain "dependent of the EU Citizen, **********, in this State (as stated in refusal)" you must prove such dependency with "evidence from country of origin". To give you an example, my mother is dependent on me in the Irish state as a Permitted Family Member under the EU Treaty. I proved dependency by providing evidence from my country of origin.

See extract from the EU Directives pages 7 & 11:
(PAGE 07)...in cases falling under Article 3(2)(a), a document issued by the relevant authority in the country of origin or country from which they are arriving certifying that they are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen, or proof of the existence of serious health grounds which strictly require the personal care of the family member by the Union citizen;
(PAGE 11)..in order to decide whether to grant a permission under paragraph (a
), the Minister shall cause to be carried out an extensive examination of the personal circumstances of the applicant and shall have regard to the following:
(i) the extent and nature of the dependency;
(ii) in the case of financial dependency, the extent and duration of the financial support provided by the Union citizen or his or her spouse or civil partner to the applicant prior to the applicant’s coming to the State, having regard, amongst other relevant matters, to living costs in the country from which the applicant has come, whether the financial dependency can be satisfied by remittances to the applicant in the country from which he or she has come and other financial resources available to him or her;
(iii) in the case of dependency on serious health grounds which strictly require the personal care of the Union citizen or his or her spouse
12
[548] or civil partner, the nature of the serious health grounds concerned and the duration of the period in which they have existed;
Link to document: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015 ... ade/en/pdf

My advise to you would be to consider gathering the following evidence as per your replies to my questions.

Provide a letter covering in great details the following points:
Provide a divorce certificate. State you’re providing this as a means of proving she’s alone.
State on the cover letter that although she has other children you and your husband are the sole financial providers for her (re-attach Werstern Union letters). State how much the other siblings earn and if they have families of their own (obviously if they do what they earn they spend to support their families) so you can put things into context. Explain in more detail how her other children are basically unable to adequately support your mother in law therefore the burden falling squarely on you and your husband.
Provide land ownership under your husband’s name as proof she’s dependent on your husband for a place to live (by default then she becomes dependent on you since you’re married to her son) (for the purpose of proving dependency your mother in law is technically homeless). State clearly she lives in dire conditions without access to basic living utilities and re attach the photos you’ve already mentioned.
State the money she gets from you and husband is used for her day to day expenses and medical care not even enough to feed her children. You could also include the medical expenses on a monthly basis and perhaps the GP in Ghana can write another letter confirming the monthly cost incurring on your mother in law.
Other point to consider:
If your mother in law is of retirement age is she is in receipt of state pension. If yes provide certified proof of the amount she gets. If not, is there any official way you can prove it? i.e. get a certificate/testimony from social security etc?

The above suggestions are for you to consider as a means of proving dependency so you include, exclude or add more as you see fit. The way I see it anything provided gives you the chance of a positive outcome but obviously is not a guarantee.
Hi!

Thank you so much for reply and time you took to help! I have written a letter along these lines, so will try to gather all the evidence again. Everything you said I should write is true anyway so will try my best!

shpirtshqipe
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Posts: 224
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 10:33 am

Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by shpirtshqipe » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:33 am

No problem.
Good luck and keep us posted how you got on.

Shpirtshqipe

pal80uk
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Ireland

Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by pal80uk » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:25 pm

Hi both, in my understanding qualifying family members did not require prior dependency on the EU citizen?
Also INIS only requests this information on the permitted family member application form.

Am I missing something here, as you both seem to be quite confident in your statements?

npayne27
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Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:43 am

Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by npayne27 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:29 am

pal80uk wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:25 pm
Hi both, in my understanding qualifying family members did not require prior dependency on the EU citizen?
Also INIS only requests this information on the permitted family member application form.

Am I missing something here, as you both seem to be quite confident in your statements?
Yes qualifying family members like your spouse, children etc. But for dependant parents you do need to show they are actually dependant on you. Do you have any info that says otherwise? And yes thry don’t require duch info on the qualifying family mrmber application form, that’s why i was do dhocked thry refused her application because I meet all the requirements on the form.

npayne27
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Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by npayne27 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:39 am

She is a qualifying family member.

shpirtshqipe
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Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by shpirtshqipe » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:46 am

pal80uk wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:25 pm
Am I missing something here, as you both seem to be quite confident in your statements?
Read page 11 of the EU Treaty Statue:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015 ... ade/en/pdf

pal80uk
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Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by pal80uk » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:07 am

Hi Shpritshqip....i hv chkd pg11 of the regs which refers us back to pg10 (3)(a)(iii) - EU citizen who is exercising treaty rights as student.

In my case (i believe in OP's case too) we are in regular employment and fall under catagory (3)(a)(i) on pg 10 - as workers, and cannot see anywhere in regulation where it says we hv to show prior dependency too. This has always been my understanding.

If you still think otherwise, can u plz share part of the regs which refers to eu workers catagory and requires prior dependency?

shpirtshqipe
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Posts: 224
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 10:33 am

Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by shpirtshqipe » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:49 am

Hi Shpritshqip....i hv chkd pg11 of the regs which refers us back to pg10 (3)(a)(iii) - EU citizen who is exercising treaty rights as student.

In my case (i believe in OP's case too) we are in regular employment and fall under catagory (3)(a)(i) on pg 10 - as workers, and cannot see anywhere in regulation where it says we hv to show prior dependency too. This has always been my understanding.

If you still think otherwise, can u plz share part of the regs which refers to eu workers catagory and requires prior dependency?

On Citizens Information page read what defines a Qualified Family Member:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... mbers.html


Dupalsky has made a very clear point in your original thread and I’m afraid your understanding of the law governing the EU Treaty Rights in this instance for Dependent Parents is wrong.

Page 11 of the Treaty refers to what the minister takes into account when deciding whether a Qualified Family Member meets the requirements.

Good Luck

pal80uk
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Ireland

Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by pal80uk » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:43 pm

You did not respond to my question....tht pg 11 referres to eu citizen treaty rights as student only? Hence parents prior dependence was requested.

But in our case....for employed eu citizens....only requirement as i understand is dependence at the time of application in the state.

npayne27
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Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by npayne27 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:30 pm

Yes, it is true. It does apply to students and not employed people. The only way the Minister could treat a qualyfying member as a permitted family member is only if they are a student and when they are applying to come into the state. Applying for tesidence us under Regulation 6 and again can only request dependancy proof before hand if you are a student. Which I am not. But all you both said has really helped so i will just for purpose pf proving our genuinity provide all said above to prove dependancy beforehand. The initial letter said we have not provided documents showing dependancy of eu citezin in the state, which is wrong because we provided EVERYTHING. So we are also going to atta h tv liscencr, more bank statements and supermarket shopping receipts. You can see clearly on bank statements that i pay for everything.

shpirtshqipe
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Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by shpirtshqipe » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:45 pm

The initial letter said we have not provided documents showing dependancy of eu citezin in the state, which is wrong because we provided EVERYTHING.
You are getting muddled up with the wording of the refusal letter.

The refusal letter is addressed in your mother's name therefore ALL the wording used in the letter is referring to your mother and not yourself, the EU Citizen. If they felt you had not provided enough evidence to support your parent in Ireland they would have written to You in person in your Name.

Therefore INIS has been very clear by WRITING to YOUR MOTHER (not you) that she has not provided enough evidence of dependency in THIS STATE. In lay terms "IN THIS STATE" refers to the fact that the parent can obtain the EUFAM visa (right of residency in Ireland) by proving they are Dependent on the EU Citizen in their Country of origin which I covered in my previous replies.

npayne27
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Re: Mother-in-law refused residence card, please help

Post by npayne27 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:02 pm

shpirtshqipe wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:45 pm
The initial letter said we have not provided documents showing dependancy of eu citezin in the state, which is wrong because we provided EVERYTHING.
You are getting muddled up with the wording of the refusal letter.

The refusal letter is addressed in your mother's name therefore ALL the wording used in the letter is referring to your mother and not yourself, the EU Citizen. If they felt you had not provided enough evidence to support your parent in Ireland they would have written to You in person in your Name.

Therefore INIS has been very clear by WRITING to YOUR MOTHER (not you) that she has not provided enough evidence of dependency in THIS STATE. In lay terms "IN THIS STATE" refers to the fact that the parent can obtain the EUFAM visa (right of residency in Ireland) by proving they are Dependent on the EU Citizen in their Country of origin which I covered in my previous replies.
I see what you mean :-) Thank you so much for all your help. I will be sending all the documents tomorrow.

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