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Need advice on EU law?

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, Administrator

Plaasjapie
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Need advice on EU law?

Post by Plaasjapie » Sat May 05, 2007 12:58 pm

0000
Last edited by Plaasjapie on Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Sat May 05, 2007 3:20 pm

Here's some details from the European Commission's Website on the Free movement of Workers...

http://ec.europa.eu/employment_social/f ... ily_en.htm
Family members

The following family members, whatever their nationality, have the right to reside with you in the host Member State:

* your spouse;
* the partner with whom you have contracted a registered partnership in a Member State, but only if the legislation of the host Member State treats registered partnerships as equivalent to marriage and in accordance with the conditions laid down by the host Member State;
* your descendants and those of your spouse or registered partner who are under the age of 21 or are dependants;
* your dependent relatives in the ascending line and those of your spouse or registered partner.

Member States must also facilitate the entry and residence of:

* other family members who are dependants or members of your household or who require your personal care due to serious health grounds, and
* the partner with whom you have a durable relationship, duly attested.

If the family members are EU citizens, they may be required to register with the competent authority, in which case they will be issued with a registration certificate.

If they are third-country nationals, they will be issued a residence card, valid for five years or for the envisaged period of residence of the worker if this period is less than five years. An entry visa may also be required to enter the territory of the host Member State.

Only the following documents may be required for issuing the registration certificate or the residence card:

* a valid identity card or passport; if the family members are third-country nationals, they must produce a valid passport;
* proof of the family relationship or of the registered partnership;
* the registration certificate of the worker or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host Member state;
* in the case of dependant relatives, other family members or durable partnerships, proof that they fall into these categories.

Family members also qualify for the right of permanent residence after a continuous period of residence of five years in the host Member State. If they are EU nationals, they will be issued, upon application, with a document certifying permanent residence. If they are third-country nationals, they will be issued with a permanent residence card renewable every ten years.

They may retain, under certain specific conditions, the right of residence in case of divorce, annulment of marriage, termination of registered partnership, death or departure of the worker.

Members of the family who have the right of residence in the host Member State have the right to work in the host Member State whatever their nationality. If they are third country nationals, this means that no work permit will be required. They have the right to equal treatment, including the award of social advantages.

The children of the worker, whatever their nationality, have the right to education in the host Member State on the same terms as its nationals. This includes, for instance, a right to equal treatment in relation to study grants.

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Tue May 08, 2007 9:29 pm

This is the reply we got from the Citizen's signpost service
The right of all EU citizens to reside in one of the 27 EU Member State for more than three months should also be granted to their family members.

EU citizens, who have exercised their right to move and reside freely and moved to a host Member State, are therefore entitled to reside together with their family members, irrespective of nationality.

Your husband, as a non-EU national, is obliged to apply for a residence card with the relevant authorities of the host Member State (as he has done). The deadline for submitting the residence card application may not be less than three months from the date of your arrival (which you have satisfied).
Your right of residence is evidenced by issue of a residence card. For the residence card to be issued, the host Member State may only require that you present a valid passport and:
• a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship or of a registered partnership;
• the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host Member State of the Union citizen whom you accompany or join: and
• in case that you are dependant direct relative, documentary evidence to that effect.
The residence card should be issued no later than six months from the date on which you submit the application. A certificate of application for the residence card should be issued immediately. The residence card should be valid for five years from the date of issue or for the envisaged period of residence of the Union citizen, if this period is less than five years.
Possession of the residence card may under no circumstances be made a precondition for the exercise of a right or the completion of an administrative formality, as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof. What is important is that you have the right rather than having an official paper to that effect.

Please note that your husband’s residence in Ireland as a family member of you (a Union citizen) might have certain bearing on his right of residence. The Union citizen whose right to reside in the host Member State is dependent on having sufficient financial resources not to become a burden on social assistance system of the host Member State must show that all family members residing with him/her in the host Member State have comprehensive sickness insurance cover and that he/she has sufficient resources in order that the family members do not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence.

If your husband wishes to work and you have any further questions it would be beneficial to contact the Employment Permits section of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (contact details attached below):
Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment
Employment Permits Section
Davitt House
65a Adelaide Road
DUBLIN 02

Opening Hours: 9:30-13:00 & 14:00-17:00
Tel: (01) 631 3333/3308
Homepage: http://www.entemp.ie
Email: employmentpermits@entemp.ie


The advice given by the Signpost Service legal experts is independent advice and shall not be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission. As such it will not in anyway bind the Commission.

dsab85
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Post by dsab85 » Wed May 09, 2007 7:17 am

As we all know by now that's the theory... unfortunately not reality in Ireland.

Plaasjapie
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Post by Plaasjapie » Wed May 09, 2007 8:02 am

0000
Last edited by Plaasjapie on Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Wed May 09, 2007 3:46 pm

Yes, seems like the Irish would like the billions in aid from the E.U, but when it comes to following the treaty requirements they drag their feet.

Plaasjapie
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Response from Europe Direct

Post by Plaasjapie » Fri May 11, 2007 9:12 pm

0000
Last edited by Plaasjapie on Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

brownbonno
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Netherlands

Post by brownbonno » Sat May 12, 2007 10:28 am

Plaasjapie,

Thanks for this wonderful revelation of this contact information.
This is a golden opportunity for people having problems with the DoJ to contact this Mr Michal Meduna with their problems.The more complaints he get the better chance for a swift solution.
Thanks
Knowledge is Power

dsab85
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Post by dsab85 » Sat May 12, 2007 1:51 pm

Thanks for that Plaasjapie.

I just fired off another email.

I also sent registered letters to the Justice Minister, lodged a formal complaint with the European Commission, lodged a written complaint with my embassy in Dublin and lodged a complaint with the Foreign Ministry of my country.

In addition to that I sent email to the Justice Spokepeople of the Labour Party, FG and the Greens.

As I am pretty pissed off by now I am really trying to make as many people aware of the Irish breach of common EU Laws as posssible.

Plaasjapie
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Post by Plaasjapie » Sat May 12, 2007 2:07 pm

0000
Last edited by Plaasjapie on Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Sat May 12, 2007 6:01 pm

Has anyone written to the 'Letters to the Editor' of the Irish Times yet? Maybe we can compare the hypocricy of Bertie Ahern calling for legalization of irish overstayers,lawbreakers,tax evaders in the U.S versus the denial of full rights of E.U spouses who are here legally.

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Sun May 13, 2007 5:00 pm

Something I would suggest to E.U/Non E.U couples who might have married outside the E.U would be to get the wedding registered at the consulate of the E.U spouse and have some documents proving that the wedding has been recognized by the embassy of the E.U spouse.That would make it difficult for the Irish Goverment to deny residency.

Sahil
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Post by Sahil » Tue May 15, 2007 3:47 pm

Guys .. My Wife ( who is EU National) just got Reply from Sign post Services. Here it is:


"As a rule and general principle, the right of all EU citizens to reside in one of the 27 EU Member State for more than three months should also be granted to their family members. EU citizens, who have exercised their right to move and reside freely and moved to a host Member State, are therefore entitled to reside together with their family members, irrespective of nationality (however, this right would not apply to your husband on his own if he did not accompany or join you)

Your husband as you are aware, as a non-EU national, is obliged to apply for a residence card with the relevant authorities of the host Member State. Your right of residence is evidenced by issue of a residence card. For the residence card to be issued, the host Member State may only require that you present a valid passport and:
• a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship or of a registered partnership;
• the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host Member State of the Union citizen whom you accompany or join: and
• in case that you are dependant direct relative, documentary evidence to that effect.
As you correctly point out, the residence card should be issued no later than six months from the date on which you submit the application. A certificate of application for the residence card should be issued immediately. The residence card should be valid for five years from the date of issue or for the envisaged period of residence of the Union citizen, if this period is less than five years.
Possession of the residence card may under no circumstances be made a precondition for the exercise of a right or the completion of an administrative formality, as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof. What is important is that you have the right rather than having an official paper to that effect.
Please note that your residence in the host Member State as family member of a Union citizen might have certain bearing on her right of residence. The Union citizen whose right to reside in the host Member State is dependent on having sufficient financial resources not to become a burden on social assistance system of the host Member State must show that all family members residing with him/her in the host Member State have comprehensive sickness insurance cover and that he/she has sufficient resources in order that the family members do not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence.

The right of residence of your husband (married to you as a EU/Austrian national) may be restricted only on grounds of public policy, public security or public health. The only reason I can foresee for the Irish authorities taking caution would be special rules that they have enacted concerning marriages of convenience and this might explain the requirement to have lived in another Member State as a married couple (but then of course there might be other reasons which you need to establish). Special rules on marriages of convenience exist in a number of EU Member States (Czech Republic, Ireland, Lithuania, Luxembourg and the UK). For example, under the Lithuanian rules all spouses married less than five years deserve special scrutiny. In Ireland, as you are aware, recently married couples will have to provide extensive information on the history of their relationship.

All I can suggest is that you contact the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform again and ask them to explain the reasons as they are best positioned to address your concerns as they are familiar with your complete file:

Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform
Immigration and Citizenship Office
72 St. Stephen's Green
Dublin 2
Ireland
Tel. +353-1-602-8202
http://www.justice.ie


The advice given by the Signpost Service legal experts is independent advice and shall not be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission. As such it will not in anyway bind the Commission.

Note: To post another enquiry, please visit the Signpost Service Web Site or contact EUROPE DIRECT"



i have logde a Formal Complaint to European Commission as well. i like the Idea to include media on this. if anyone can tell me how can we do that. i mean threw Newpapers ect?

Regards,

Sahil

Sahil
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Post by Sahil » Tue May 15, 2007 3:58 pm

And one more from European Commission. Here it is:


"The European Commission is currently investigating the practices of the Department of Justice in insisting that a non-EU family member must previously have lived in another Member State of the EU before being entitled to a residence card. In the view of the Commission, this policy is contrary to EU law. Directive 2004/38 upon which the Irish law is based does not require that a non-EU family member should have lived in another Member State prior to being provided with a residence card.

To resolve your situation, I recommend that you first appeal the decision of the Department of Justice. At the same time, you should refer the matter to SOLVIT which is an EU network established to resolve problems caused by misapplication of EU law. The service is free of charge. Further information on SOLVIT together with contact details for both the Austrian and Irish representatives (both of which you should contact) are available on the following website: www.ec.europa.eu/solvit/

You may also wish to lodge a formal complaint about the issue to the European Commission. A standard complaint form together with guidelines for completion are available on the following website: http://ec.europa.eu/community_law/compl ... orm_en.rtf


Plaasjapie
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Post by Plaasjapie » Tue May 15, 2007 8:21 pm

0000
Last edited by Plaasjapie on Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Birdy
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Post by Birdy » Wed May 16, 2007 9:12 am

Hi guys,

Michael Meduna is very helpful Solvit havent been in touch for a while which is slightly annoying but at least they respond to emails. i currently have email addresses of four staff members at the DOJ if anyone wants them i have been emailing them for a week with no response.

Not sure about the media thing if it will work with or against us but at this point anything is worth a shot. I know a couple of ex journalists i will try speak to them today see if they have any ideas.
Happy now in the U.K. not so happy about the Rugby

Platinum
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Post by Platinum » Wed May 16, 2007 2:10 pm

Given that SOLVIT keep saying that not having the residency card in no way prevents the non-EU spouse from working, and that living with your spouse and working in the host EU country is a right, what do you think will happen if we just look for jobs and start working?

I mean, I, for instance, already have a PPS number, and when I've talked to recruiters and HR people at job fairs, when I say that I'm married to an EU citizen, they just say, Oh, yeah, that's fine. Not one of them gives any indication that I'd have to do any special paperwork at all. They all assume this means I have full right to work here.

Do you suppose the DoJ or DETE or anyone would really do anything if they found out?

Plaasjapie
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Post by Plaasjapie » Wed May 16, 2007 2:47 pm

0000
Last edited by Plaasjapie on Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Birdy
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Post by Birdy » Thu May 17, 2007 6:52 am

Im curious how did you guys get your PPS numbers? my wife has been into them a number of times and they say she cant have one till she is resident. Also we have been looking for Jobs but no one wants to fill in the Work permit that in itself is a big battle.
Happy now in the U.K. not so happy about the Rugby

jack_in_the box
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Post by jack_in_the box » Thu May 17, 2007 10:36 am

Got my PPS number after I got my first work permit but that was 6 years ago. Not sure if it still works the same!

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Thu May 17, 2007 11:17 am

I got my PPS number after I visited the Welfare office for my district with my passport and gave them a copy of my spouse visa, along with a letter from my wife that I am staying with her at address **** along with a proof of address.

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Thu May 17, 2007 11:30 am

Does anyone of you who have been denied the residency card have papers from the Embassy of the E.U spouse indicating that the marriage is recognized by the Government of the E.U spouse?

Static
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Post by Static » Thu May 17, 2007 11:59 am

Birdy wrote:Im curious how did you guys get your PPS numbers? my wife has been into them a number of times and they say she cant have one till she is resident. Also we have been looking for Jobs but no one wants to fill in the Work permit that in itself is a big battle.
I also have that problem :( What about starting a business?

Plaasjapie
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Post by Plaasjapie » Thu May 17, 2007 1:47 pm

0000
Last edited by Plaasjapie on Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sahil
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Post by Sahil » Thu May 17, 2007 2:45 pm

archigabe wrote:Does anyone of you who have been denied the residency card have papers from the Embassy of the E.U spouse indicating that the marriage is recognized by the Government of the E.U spouse?
yes My self :(

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