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Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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Sabby2019
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Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by Sabby2019 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:41 am

Hello all
I am new to this forum seeking help if anyone has had any similar sort of experience in the past.

I am a British citizen and has been sending money to my parents in India since 2012 in my Father's account. I have got documentary evidence for this from Sept 2016 to Oct 2018
I have also been visiting them in India every year at least twice.
My father didn't have any full-time job as such as he was suffering from some liver problem so my remittance was their only source. But my father used to sublet properties to generate a little income and mainly to keep himself busy. My mother has always been a homemaker.
My father got very ill last year in Oct 2018 and passed away in Nov 2018. After this, I have been living with my mother in India in our family home and only visited the UK twice for 3-4 weeks per visit. Between all this, I was just using the cash I had physically brought with me from the UK and the money my father had in his account.
I decided to move to Ireland in July 2019 and applied my mother's Irish visa for initial entry, which got rejected for not furnishing any proof of dependency.
At this point, I started sending money from my UK account into my mother's Indian account. I started keeping records of all utility bills and day to day expenses.
I applied again in Dec 2019 and this time I furnished all money receipts including the ones from Sept 2016. I attached my mother's 6 months bank account statement showing the entries for receiving that money. I also furnished da to day expenses. I also attached my passport stamps to show my previous travels, when my father was alive and to show that I have been in India since after his death too.
The visa was rejected again saying it is not proved that she is beneficiary of Free movement rights and my centre of life is Uk and no proofs of cohabiting have been given.

Can anyone help, please? Should I appeal or reapply

PS: whilst in India, I have not been working on paper. I have been doing some Website development work on cash.

Any helo will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Bippin
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by Bippin » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:44 pm

HI
Exactly same refusal reason that my mom friend had...she was reject twice one from UK and one in Ireland ( waiting on appeal) seem INIS is very strict with this regulation on British familes as they may be think British citizens might use this regulation pave their way to UK.

Sabby2019
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by Sabby2019 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:56 pm

Yes they have actually mentioned that too just as an advisory. But thats not my intentions anyway and they shouldn't be assuming things.
Could you please tell me for how long your friend have been waiting since they have appealed. I have heard appeals takes 6-9 months.

nojoyfrominis
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by nojoyfrominis » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:13 pm

You need to show dependency and for exercising Eu treaty rights, you need to be employed in Ireland or studying or living with sufficient funds along with medical insurance. Now sending money from U.K. account is not very clever since you want to show Ireland as centre of your life.
Time is running out as Boris won yesterday. Eu treaty rights will not apply to British citizens as soon as wab is passed in U.K. parliament and passed to Eu. That should happen within a month. So u need to make a solid application and submit it before U.K. informs Eu that they are leaving next month

Bippin
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by Bippin » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:44 pm

Still on process of appeal, don't know how long it take ,she is doing through solicitor.

Sabby2019
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by Sabby2019 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:49 pm

nojoyfrominis wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:13 pm
You need to show dependency and for exercising Eu treaty rights, you need to be employed in Ireland or studying or living with sufficient funds along with medical insurance. Now sending money from U.K. account is not very clever since you want to show Ireland as centre of your life.
Time is running out as Boris won yesterday. Eu treaty rights will not apply to British citizens as soon as wab is passed in U.K. parliament and passed to Eu. That should happen within a month. So u need to make a solid application and submit it before U.K. informs Eu that they are leaving next month
I am hoping they agree on some sort of withdrawal agreement so I would be able to take advantage of the transition period

Sabby2019
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by Sabby2019 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:53 pm

Bippin wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:44 pm
Still on process of appeal, don't know how long it take ,she is doing through solicitor.
Could you please ask them to recommend a solicitor in Ireland please. I am also looking into travel to Ireland very soon to get legal advice.

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CR001
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by CR001 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:54 pm

Sabby2019 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:56 pm
Yes they have actually mentioned that too just as an advisory. But thats not my intentions anyway and they shouldn't be assuming things.
They aren't baseless assumptions. 100s if not 1000s of newly naturalised British citizens suddenly moved to Ireland in recent years to bring many family and extended family members under EU treaty rights to Ireland and then move back to the UK after a few months etc. I recall one member a couple of years ago who was trying to sponsor at least 12 extended family members from Pakistan, siblings, parents, aunts, uncls, nieces etc.

So it is a well known back door route back to the UK for family members that don't qualify under the UK immigration rules (effectively using Ireland to circumvent the UK immigration rules).

Be aware that Ireland and the UK share immigration data and information.
Char (CR001 not Casa)
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by CR001 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:56 pm

Sabby2019 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:53 pm
Bippin wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:44 pm
Still on process of appeal, don't know how long it take ,she is doing through solicitor.
Could you please ask them to recommend a solicitor in Ireland please. I am also looking into travel to Ireland very soon to get legal advice.
Members are not permitted to post names and details of solicitors on the forum
Char (CR001 not Casa)
In life you cannot press the Backspace button!!
Please DO NOT send me a PM for immigration advice. I reserve the right to ignore the PM and not respond.

Sabby2019
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by Sabby2019 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:06 pm

CR001 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:54 pm
Sabby2019 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:56 pm
Yes they have actually mentioned that too just as an advisory. But thats not my intentions anyway and they shouldn't be assuming things.
They aren't baseless assumptions. 100s if not 1000s of newly naturalised British citizens suddenly moved to Ireland in recent years to bring many family and extended family members under EU treaty rights to Ireland and then move back to the UK after a few months etc. I recall one member a couple of years ago who was trying to sponsor at least 12 extended family members from Pakistan, siblings, parents, aunts, uncls, nieces etc.

So it is a well known back door route back to the UK for family members that don't qualify under the UK immigration rules (effectively using Ireland to circumvent the UK immigration rules).

Be aware that Ireland and the UK share immigration data and information.
I am sure people do misuse the system. But every case should be decided on its own merits and not on assumptions.
My mother had a 6 months UK visa from Feb 2019 to
Aug 2019. We were in UK in March 2019 which could have easily allowed us to use the back door entry to Ireland. But my mother was going through abnormal grief and struggling to cope with the loss ( She still is but a lot better). So we travelled back to India to help help her get better in familiar environment.

Sabby2019
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by Sabby2019 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:07 pm

CR001 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:56 pm
Sabby2019 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:53 pm
Bippin wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:44 pm
Still on process of appeal, don't know how long it take ,she is doing through solicitor.
Could you please ask them to recommend a solicitor in Ireland please. I am also looking into travel to Ireland very soon to get legal advice.
Members are not permitted to post names and details of solicitors on the forum
Apologies. I wasn't aware.

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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by CR001 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:10 pm

Remember that for a 6 months visit visa to the UK, she would have to prove that she has independent means and strong ties to home country. This is where the sharing of information between Ireland and the UK can be the downfall as now you are claiming she is wholly dependent on you.

The back door route I am referring to is back to the UK, not UK to Ireland, which had you done it, you would have found your mum in a very difficult position with no legal status in Ireland.
Char (CR001 not Casa)
In life you cannot press the Backspace button!!
Please DO NOT send me a PM for immigration advice. I reserve the right to ignore the PM and not respond.

Sabby2019
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by Sabby2019 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:20 pm

CR001 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:10 pm
Remember that for a 6 months visit visa to the UK, she would have to prove that she has independent means and strong ties to home country. This is where the sharing of information between Ireland and the UK can be the downfall as now you are claiming she is wholly dependent on you.

The back door route I am referring to is back to the UK, not UK to Ireland, which had you done it, you would have found your mum in a very difficult position with no legal status in Ireland.
Good point. It will actually be good if they can look at the visit visa application
I might have to explain that too in appeal or new application as when I applied for her UK visit visa, I was with her in India and clearly stated that I will be travelling with her. As for the financial means, the bank statements clearly showed that money in her account were from my dads life insurance policy.
Having said that, that was in March 2019 and situations do change in life. Wont they consider it?

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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by Bippin » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:32 pm

Sorry I am not allowed to names any solicitors in this board ,plus even if I could I would not recommend _to you as he fail to appeal once in UK then told her to moved here then suggested one Irish lawyer that probably same type of _not catch up work in time for appeal ,

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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by littlerr » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:34 pm

One of the key element to Free Movement Directive is that you intend to be a resident in the country where you apply for your dependants’ residences. You said you were sending money to your mother from your UK bank account. That immediately raises a red flag.

If you have been living in Ireland since the summer, you should be able to provide concrete evidences that you live in Ireland, work in Ireland and pay taxes in Ireland. Some salary slips, Irish bank statements showing daily transactions, and utility bills will help. Irish bank statements that do not show daily grocery showings will not do you any good. Any kind of UK bank statement or showing financial transactions between you and your mother from the UK will only reduce your chance of having your visa approved.

Sabby2019
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by Sabby2019 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:37 pm

littlerr wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:34 pm
One of the key element to Free Movement Directive is that you intend to be a resident in the country where you apply for your dependants’ residences. You said you were sending money to your mother from your UK bank account. That immediately raises a red flag.

If you have been living in Ireland since the summer, you should be able to provide concrete evidences that you live in Ireland, work in Ireland and pay taxes in Ireland. Some salary slips, Irish bank statements showing daily transactions, and utility bills will help. Irish bank statements that do not show daily grocery showings will not do you any good. Any kind of UK bank statement or showing financial transactions between you and your mother from the UK will only reduce your chance of having your visa approved.
But on the INIS website it says as an EU citizen my family can join me if I am living in Ireland or can accompany me if I am planning to move.

Sabby2019
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by Sabby2019 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:41 pm

littlerr wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:34 pm
One of the key element to Free Movement Directive is that you intend to be a resident in the country where you apply for your dependants’ residences. You said you were sending money to your mother from your UK bank account. That immediately raises a red flag.

If you have been living in Ireland since the summer, you should be able to provide concrete evidences that you live in Ireland, work in Ireland and pay taxes in Ireland. Some salary slips, Irish bank statements showing daily transactions, and utility bills will help. Irish bank statements that do not show daily grocery showings will not do you any good. Any kind of UK bank statement or showing financial transactions between you and your mother from the UK will only reduce your chance of having your visa approved.
Moreover I can not leave my mother alone. She will be all alone after my dad. I do have a sister but she lives very far from our family home with her husband, in laws and kids. She is not able to support my mother anyway financially or by staying with her due to social norms. Hence I have been sending money to my parents since long time.

Sabby2019
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by Sabby2019 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:52 pm

Bippin wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:32 pm
Sorry I am not allowed to names any solicitors in this board ,plus even if I could I would not recommend _to you as he fail to appeal once in UK then told her to moved here then suggested one Irish lawyer that probably same type of _not catch up work in time for appeal ,

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I leant that. Sorry for asking.

littlerr
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by littlerr » Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:22 pm

Sabby2019 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:37 pm
But on the INIS website it says as an EU citizen my family can join me if I am living in Ireland or can accompany me if I am planning to move.
So have you moved to Ireland or not? Do you have any job offer in Ireland? Do you have accommodation booked? If you said you were planning to move to Ireland in July, it's just not a convincing thing to say the same in December.

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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by Bippin » Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:41 pm

All i could suggest may be you could try Solvit , explain your mom visa situation as if i remember right non eu spouse / family are qualified to join or accompany to EU citizens either by employed , self employed, study , self sufficient, or looking for job and able to secure job in future. Or if you want you case look stronger then do what Littlerr suggested as that what i told my friend aswell, come here first , pay tax get PPS number all documents required by INIS should be Irish avoiding anything that associated with UK .

More than 13 years ago i was on a same route as you ,my husband not even have a job offer in host country because he was living with me in my country but i got visa issued to France very easily ,it is very very strict nowadays!

Best of LUCK

arz1986
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by arz1986 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:39 am

it is advisable to try other EU country instead of ireland. you have better chances.

nojoyfrominis
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Re: Planing to exercise Free Movement to Ireland as British citizen

Post by nojoyfrominis » Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:15 am

Even with transition period Eu treaty rights will buy apply because Brexit happens when bj informs Eu. Will be latest by 31st jan
Sabby2019 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:49 pm
nojoyfrominis wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:13 pm
You need to show dependency and for exercising Eu treaty rights, you need to be employed in Ireland or studying or living with sufficient funds along with medical insurance. Now sending money from U.K. account is not very clever since you want to show Ireland as centre of your life.
Time is running out as Boris won yesterday. Eu treaty rights will not apply to British citizens as soon as wab is passed in U.K. parliament and passed to Eu. That should happen within a month. So u need to make a solid application and submit it before U.K. informs Eu that they are leaving next month
I am hoping they agree on some sort of withdrawal agreement so I would be able to take advantage of the transition period

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