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Question 11.7

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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Romanrumun
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Czech Republic

Question 11.7

Post by Romanrumun » Sun May 23, 2021 8:09 pm

Hey there guys
After living 16 year in ireland I think its time to make it official and apply for irish citizenship.

Application form, looks pretty straight forward for EU passport holder, but durring my stay i had two situations that may be problematic to aswer in context of question 11.7 in the form.
Maybe someone could advise me what to do.
First i had to call gards on my drunker neighbor as he was wrecking common arena in appartment block i was renting appartment in.gards came noone got arrested or anything,

Second i been renting a flat long tine ago and another neighbor set a fire in his appartment after he discovered his girlfriend was cheating on him or simething like that me and rest of tenants in that appartment block were giving statements in our local garda station.
Do i have to disclose all of above?

Regards

Roman

Vorona
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Ireland

Re: Question 11.7

Post by Vorona » Sun May 23, 2021 8:17 pm

Adult application form is the same for everyone, EU or non EU applicants.
No, if you have not been arrested, convicted, fined, charged (even if cleared), etc., then you can answer "no".

Romanrumun
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Czech Republic

Re: Question 11.7

Post by Romanrumun » Sun May 23, 2021 8:22 pm

Perfect, thank you for quick reply

avta
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Ireland

Re: Question 11.7

Post by avta » Wed May 26, 2021 3:57 am

Vorona wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 8:17 pm
No, if you have not been arrested, convicted, fined, charged (even if cleared), etc., then you can answer "no".
All the details regarding these incidents are recorded in the garda Pulse system, you can think that there is nothing important, but it could be that it is more than nothing was recorded and could cause in your application that you did not disclose such information. That will be wrong and it will be your fault.
I advise you to request the FOI records from Garda and just copy-paste the result table to the application form.

Vorona
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Ireland

Re: Question 11.7

Post by Vorona » Wed May 26, 2021 8:12 am

avta wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 3:57 am
All the details regarding these incidents are recorded in the garda Pulse system, you can think that there is nothing important, but it could be that it is more than nothing was recorded and could cause in your application that you did not disclose such information. That will be wrong and it will be your fault.
I advise you to request the FOI records from Garda and just copy-paste the result table to the application form.
incident above are not related to the OP, therefore he or she has nothing to declare.

avta
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Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:39 pm
Ireland

Re: Question 11.7

Post by avta » Thu May 27, 2021 4:30 pm

This is wrong. The question words are clearly include all the cases including where you was even witnesses, recorded to the Garda system:
"Including where you were not charged with
any offence? Give details below."

It means that even witnesses whom details was recorded to the system have to declare this in the application form to disclose all the information he/she already provided to the Garda:
"The onus is on each applicant to disclose all
information and evidence..."

littlerr
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China

Re: Question 11.7

Post by littlerr » Thu May 27, 2021 5:08 pm

avta wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 4:30 pm
It means that even witnesses whom details was recorded to the system have to declare this in the application form to disclose all the information he/she already provided to the Garda:
"The onus is on each applicant to disclose all
information and evidence..."
That’s pure wrong and misleading. Witnesses are NOT required to disclose such information in the application. Only information where a person has received a notice from Gardai stating that they are under investigation needs to be included. Matters for which the person is a witness (or a victim) do not need to be included in the form.

avta
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Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:39 pm
Ireland

Re: Question 11.7

Post by avta » Thu May 27, 2021 5:25 pm

littlerr wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 5:08 pm
avta wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 4:30 pm
It means that even witnesses whom details was recorded to the system have to declare this in the application form to disclose all the information he/she already provided to the Garda:
"The onus is on each applicant to disclose all
information and evidence..."
That’s pure wrong and misleading. Witnesses are NOT required to disclose such information in the application. Only information where a person has received a notice from Gardai stating that they are under investigation needs to be included. Matters for which the person is a witness (or a victim) do not need to be included in the form.
There no such excuses mentioned in the application form or any were additionally. This is just your interpretation of what you think should not be disclosed to the department as not matters.
If person is recorded in the system, that this record will be available to the department. It doesn't mean you have to write any detailed description. But date and "witnesses" is clearly enough. This will be matched with the printout and not create any questions.

littlerr
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China

Re: Question 11.7

Post by littlerr » Thu May 27, 2021 5:35 pm

Jaysus - witnesses are not under investigations. Only cases where the person is under investigation need to be disclosed.

There are occasionally cases where the witness would also be investigated by Gardai, mostly in domestic issues. In such cases, Gardai will tell you that you are under investigation. But if you are simply walking on a street and saw a person stabbing a different person, you are just a witness and you do not need to disclose it.

There is a very recent case (2019/41) in which the Minister of Justice refused a person’s citizenship based on the person’s two motoring offence and failure to disclose a domestic case where the person was a witness.

The judgement is abundantly clear in that the judge finds the Minister’s decision to be unlawful.

P.S. although an applicant does not need to include incidents where they are simply a witness, they may be asked by the minister to provide a full count of the incident upon request of a Garda vetting. When this happens, the applicant will still need to provide details. However, this happens very rarely and it only occurs in issues like the above (domestic abuses, where it’s hard to tell whether a person is truly a ‘witness’ only).

avta
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Ireland

Re: Question 11.7

Post by avta » Thu May 27, 2021 6:06 pm

Hey, littler,
You are the guru here and I fully agree with you last statement. But OP was not walking on the street, it was actually domestic dispute for both cases. We don't have details to say more about. This actually why I advice to request the FOI.
You wrote that there was a JR for the rejected case. I understand that the judge declare this as unlawful, but not really sure that department will stop their practice and will take it in to account...

littlerr
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China

Re: Question 11.7

Post by littlerr » Thu May 27, 2021 6:23 pm

avta wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 6:06 pm
Hey, littler,
You are the guru here and I fully agree with you last statement. But OP was not walking on the street, it was actually domestic dispute for both cases. We don't have details to say more about. This actually why I advice to request the FOI.
You wrote that there was a JR for the rejected case. I understand that the judge declare this as unlawful, but not really sure that department will stop their practice and will take it in to account...
As I said, if the OP was investigated by the Gardai, he would have received a letter from Gardai, indicating that he was under investigation. If this is the case, of course he should indeed include the information in the application.

And yes you are right - FOI is a good idea, but they don't always tell you the full scale of the incident - if you were under investigation but then they found no fault, they would still classify you as a 'witness' and you still wouldn't know that you were investigated (if you have never received any letter). Regardless of whether the applicant declared this incident in their application or not, the Minister may ask both the Gardai and the applicant to provide a full account of the issue.

The judgment there is more about that the Minister is unlawful to take that incident as being 'not good character'. It basically says if the incident is only 'alleged' and not 'proved', the Minister cannot use that as being not good character, and it does not need to be disclosed as the person is simply a 'witness'.

Vorona
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Re: Question 11.7

Post by Vorona » Thu May 27, 2021 8:01 pm

avta wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 4:30 pm
This is wrong. The question words are clearly include all the cases including where you was even witnesses, recorded to the Garda system:
"Including where you were not charged with
any offence? Give details below."
No. OP is not a subject to criminal investigation, therefore has nothing to declare.
You maybe surprised but a lot of good law abiding people are recorded on the Garda systems such as Garda National Immigration Bureau. This does not oblige them to declare it on the citizenship form.

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