Stages Of Retention

Mal111 · Post by **Mal111** » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:21 pm

finalversion

can you tell me how the decree of divorce looks like from Poland ?

finalversion_2k · Post by **finalversion_2k** » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:52 pm

Send you message..

finalversion_2k · Post by **finalversion_2k** » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:59 pm

Hi,

so I have received some response from Department about my EU5 application. wondering is it normal OR I'm in trouble??

they request to submit below documents. where as I submit some of documents already. but they request again.

- Evidence of date of initiation of Divorce. (Q: I submit the Divorce documents(translation and Original), and on that mentioned, the proceeding date of Divorce and decision date, do I need to submit any other documents?? OR or how can I prove date of initiation )

- p 60 for all previous years. (Q: I don't have all of those as she wasn't working for 2 years, I was working and we both were medically insured, will this work??)

- letter from landlord from 2015 to 2017 (Q: the time when we move to house, landlord give us Contract, PRTB.. and we didn't ask him to give new contract OR PRTB every year.. what to do?? will this be problem??)

- payslips for each employment. (Q: I can provide 2014, 2017 and 2018.. will this be okay or should i provide any other documents??)

- signed letter of employment with full contract details. (Q: she quit that job recently last month, so employer will give the contract OR should i attached P45?? )

- utility bills 2015, 2016 (I have all.)

thanks,
kind Regards

Mal111 · Post by **Mal111** » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:43 pm

ANSWER TO QUESTION 1) WHEN HER SOLICITOR SUBMITTED THE DIVORCE IN COURT THEY MUST HAVE STAMPED THE DOCUMENT WITH THE DATE AND THE SOLICITOR MUST HAVE A COPY YOU SHOULD PROVIDE THEM WITH THAT AND ALSO GET HER SOLICITOR TO WRITE A LETTER CONFIRMING THE DATE OF INNITIATION OF DIVORCE HAVE IT ALSO TRANSLATED

ANSWER TO QUESTION 2) PROVIDE THEM WITH YOUR P60S AND THE MEDICAL INSURANCE FOR BOTH OF YOU also Write a cover letter that for the period she was unemployed in those years your wife was residing with sufficient resources and you were the source of thosefunds ( there was a court case and the judge ruled that non eu income should also be consider as eu citizen resource of funds)

ANSWER TO QUESTION 3) ASK YOUR LAND LORD TO GIVE YOU A LETTER CONFIRMING YOU WERE RESIDING IN HIS PROPERTY FROM XXXX TO YYYYY THAT SHOULD SUFFICE ALSO PRTB IS NOT ISSUED EVERY YEAR BUT ONLY ONCE PER PROPERTY FOR FOUR YEARS

ANSWER TO QUESTION 4) PROVIDE ALL THE PAYSLIPS YOU HAVE WITH A COVER NOTE THAT FOR THE PERIOD EU SPOUSE WAS NOT WORKING YOU WERE THE SOURCE OF HER FUNDS.
ANSWER TO QUESTION 5) ASK HER EMPLOYER TO GIVE A LETTER IN WHICH CLEARLY STATE DATE OF EMPLOYEMENT ENDED WITH THAT ATTACH A COVER NOTE SAYING THAT AT THE TIME OF DIVORCE YOUR SPOUSE WAS IN EMPLOYMENT AND WAS EXERCISING HEREU TREATY RIGHTS.

My recommendation: use your solicitor they have asked as many documents as they can from you this shows they are not looking at you favourably.
Also im no expert and above is only opinion so maybe wait for senior members

Post by **CR001** » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:51 pm

Mal111 wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:43 pm
ANSWER TO QUESTION 1) WHEN HER SOLICITOR SUBMITTED THE DIVORCE IN COURT THEY MUST HAVE STAMPED THE DOCUMENT WITH THE DATE AND THE SOLICITOR MUST HAVE A COPY YOU SHOULD PROVIDE THEM WITH THAT AND ALSO GET HER SOLICITOR TO WRITE A LETTER CONFIRMING THE DATE OF INNITIATION OF DIVORCE HAVE IT ALSO TRANSLATED

ANSWER TO QUESTION 2) PROVIDE THEM WITH YOUR P60S AND THE MEDICAL INSURANCE FOR BOTH OF YOU also Write a cover letter that for the period she was unemployed in those years your wife was residing with sufficient resources and you were the source of thosefunds ( there was a court case and the judge ruled that non eu income should also be consider as eu citizen resource of funds)

ANSWER TO QUESTION 3) ASK YOUR LAND LORD TO GIVE YOU A LETTER CONFIRMING YOU WERE RESIDING IN HIS PROPERTY FROM XXXX TO YYYYY THAT SHOULD SUFFICE ALSO PRTB IS NOT ISSUED EVERY YEAR BUT ONLY ONCE PER PROPERTY FOR FOUR YEARS

ANSWER TO QUESTION 4) PROVIDE ALL THE PAYSLIPS YOU HAVE WITH A COVER NOTE THAT FOR THE PERIOD EU SPOUSE WAS NOT WORKING YOU WERE THE SOURCE OF HER FUNDS.
ANSWER TO QUESTION 5) ASK HER EMPLOYER TO GIVE A LETTER IN WHICH CLEARLY STATE DATE OF EMPLOYEMENT ENDED WITH THAT ATTACH A COVER NOTE SAYING THAT AT THE TIME OF DIVORCE YOUR SPOUSE WAS IN EMPLOYMENT AND WAS EXERCISING HEREU TREATY RIGHTS.

My recommendation: use your solicitor they have asked as many documents as they can from you this shows they are not looking at you favourably.
Also im no expert and above is only opinion so maybe wait for senior members

Kindly refrain from posting in CAPITALS, it is difficult to read and the same as SHOUTING.

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Mal111 · Post by **Mal111** » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:55 pm

apologies I didn't notice while typing il be more careful in future

finalversion_2k · Post by **finalversion_2k** » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:05 pm

thanks Mal111 for your Answers. really appreciate that..

Question 1: divorce was initiated from my side and my solicitor already provide me letter but there isn't any stamp. should I submit that??

Question 2: would you know that court decision OR case history??

At the time of submission my solicitor submitted half of the documents and return remaining. I remember she told me let them review and com back to us.. if they will need anything we will forward them. but for now that's enough. today I heard another shocking thing, I asked her that am I trouble after that letter and she said no, this letter is sign we step in the right direction, as these days they are not processing some EU5 cases because of sham marriages..

normally first letter what they send, is always like that? requesting as many documents as they can?

Thanks once again Mal111.. will appreciate other member thoughts as well.

Mal111 · Post by **Mal111** » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:14 pm

yes get a letter from your solicitor

but i think you should send a PM to alixlboy he has his application of retention approved and his divorce was also in another eu country he will advise you better on initiation date
im looking for the court case you should google it too use words like ‘’ source of funds eu non eu citizen’’ im certain its out there somewhere because i read that whole article year ago

finalversion_2k · Post by **finalversion_2k** » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:16 pm

thanks @Mal111.

will ping Alixlboy.

Mal111 · Post by **Mal111** » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:20 pm

found it !!
look at obie post on main page Changes in relation to Retained Right following Divorce
go to the bottom of his post you will see The CJEU gave their answers in the Summer of 2015.

click on that then go to the bottom of that judgement and you will find this below

2. Article 7(1)(b) of Directive 2004/38 must be interpreted as meaning that a Union citizen has sufficient resources for himself and his family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during his period of residence even where those resources derive in part from those of his spouse who is a third-country national.

I told you I have read it somewhere

finalversion_2k · Post by **finalversion_2k** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:03 am

Thanks @Mal111 you are star man.. thnk a million.

Mal111 · Post by **Mal111** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:50 pm

also just remember date of initiation of divorce is the key point and deciding factor of your retention
you must! be able to show that at the point of initiation of your divorce ur spouse was in ireland and was working

finalversion_2k · Post by **finalversion_2k** » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:41 am

Little Update on EU 5 Application with TimeLine. Hope its going in positive direction.

-> Submit application To Department 10-Sep-2018 (Just Document Related to me. e.g. my p60, my bills, my Bank Statement etc)
-> Requested Decree By Department on 19-Sep-2018
-> Decree Sent To Dept on 10-OCT-18
-> Requested wife Documents By Department 19-Oct-2018 (4 working Weeks Time)
-> Requested Doc Submitted To Dept on 16-Nov-18
-> Acknowledgement Received By Department on 22-Nov-18 ( The Enclose therein have been added to your client's file. A decision will issue on your clients application in due course)

is that's it or they will ask more documents !!

finalversion_2k · Post by **finalversion_2k** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:41 am

Hi All: I have one small tricky question, my retention application is in process, wondering can I apply for Citizen application as my citizen application time is over due and retention application is still in process from last 13 months and now they send me Temp stamp 4 for next 4 months..

I saw the INIS site and I didn't find the answer, all what I saw if you are in state for number of days, with reckonable stamp you are eligible to apply citizen application..

would really appreciate your thoughts..

finalversion_2k · Post by **finalversion_2k** » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:20 pm

Hi all,

today I'm so dishearten after 16 months I got refusal letter for my Retention application.

can't believe this, as she was in Ireland doing job and exercising her rights. On same letter they accept she was working in 2014, 2017,2018 and also said she wasn't exercising her rights.. below were the main documents, which was enough for any sensible person to know, she was in state or not.. Not sure they even try to authenticate any of that document..

Payslips before, between and After divorce. (She was working in 2014,2017,2018)
Medical insurances for current and previous years.
Doctor recipes for Current And Previous Years.
Dentist Recipes
Joint bank Account statements for previous 5 years, last Account balance was 15K (Active)
GYM card with her photo.
Social Welfare Letter collected be herself was also stamp and dated.
Matter Hospital reports after divorce.
Bills for previous 5 years
PRTB, Lease for previous 5 years..

There response:
"However, information available to the minister, from the Polish Authorities, indicate that the EU citizen Mis. XYZ has been residing in Poland from 2014 to 2018. In that regards, please be advised that Regulation 27(1) of the regulation provides that the Minister may revoke or refuse to grant as the case may be a right of residence in the state where he decides that right is being claimed on the basis of fraud or abuse of rights. please note that abuse of rights includes a marriage of continence."

If she wasn't in the state then they should provide the Dates when she left Ireland, they way how they do with Other applicants??

Not sure what else should I provide?? spoke to solicitor and she said her statement might help..

will really appreciate if anyone can suggest anything..

Thanks,
Kind Regards

Post by **Obie** » Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:01 pm

finalversion_2k wrote: ↑
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:09 am
Hi, I was married to EU citizen for 4Years & 3months. from last couple of months our relationship was almost finish and we decide to apply for divorce. so we applied for divorce in Baltic state. On first hearing as we husband & wife both were agree court give the divorce decision.

Problem: when I saw the copy of decision 'In what circumstances' section was mentioning that we are living apart from each other since mid 2015 and after that she moved back to her Baltic country. which is completely wrong, I talked to solicitor representator about this error and he said we added this just to make divorce process quicker and easier. I asked them it's completely against me and not something what I want, so I don't know but try to change this as I have month period to review/appeal against the decision.

I know one of the Retention requirement is she should be in state and exercising her rights. Any Suggestion that divorce decision can impact on retention?

It is now clear why the department refused your application

finalversion_2k · Post by **finalversion_2k** » Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:04 pm

@Obie do you think thats the case/Issue??

If I assume if thats the case then do I fell in chencholliah case??

kupuser · Post by **kupuser** » Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:25 pm

Your solicitor can request INIS to provide any evidence they have to conclude your wife was residing outside Ireland (freedom of information). Probably it would be something from the embassy of her country of origin.
In my case I had provided several affidavits from my wife but INIS disregarded those.

finalversion_2k · Post by **finalversion_2k** » Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:30 pm

Thanks @kupuser so means affidavit will not help.. may I ask how you sort this issue then??

Post by **Obie** » Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:34 pm

finalversion_2k wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:04 pm
@Obie do you think thats the case/Issue??

If I assume if thats the case then do I fell in chencholliah case??

The difficulties is, if they conclude that it was a marriage of convenience, which worries me more than them saying she left the state, then Chenchooliah is not engaged.

I am of the view that Chencholliah does not apply in marriage of convenience cases.

Applicant must work hard to remove that stain from their case, at any cost.

finalversion_2k · Post by **finalversion_2k** » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:00 pm

Below are word to word of letter..

Based on the information available, the Minister is of the opinion that the EU citizen may not have been excising their rights through employment, self employment, the pursuit of a course of study, involuntary employment or the possession of the sufficient resources in accordance with Regulation 6(3) of the regulations up to the date of initiation of divorce proceedings as claimed and therefor intends to refuse your application for retention of your residence card..

her more the minister has concerns that the documentation you provided in support of your application evidence the residence and exercise of rights of your EU citizen spouse in this state is false and misleading as to the material fact. The Minister also has concerns that you knowingly submitted this documentation in order to obtain a right of residence which you otherwise not enjoy. this institutes a fraudulent act within the meaning of Regulation and Directive, which provides that the state may refuse, terminate or withdraw any rights conferred under the Directive 'in the case of right or fraud, such as marriages of convenience'

This is found the case, the Minister will proceed to revoke your permission to remain in accordance of the provision of Regulation 27(1) of the Regulations.

Addition to the above, based on the assessment of your application to date, the Minister also has concern that your marriage may be one of the convenience, which was contracted for the sole purpose of gaining a derived right of free movement and residence under EU Law which would not otherwise joy..

if this is found to be the case, the Minister may deem your marriage to be the one of convenience in accordance with Regulation 28 of Regulations. As such the residence card which was granted to you for period of five years, valid to 12/10/2019 under the provisions of the regulation and the Directive may also be deemed to be invalid from the outlet..

you are now invited to make written representation to this office, addressing the concerns the Minster has laid out, within 21 days of the date of issue of the letter. such representation should state why your application for retention of residence card should not be refused. why you permission to remain should not be revoked. to dismiss concerns that you have engaged in a contrived activity in order to obtain a residence card and to address the issue of your submission of false and misleading information so this office.. you are also requested to address the Minster's concerns that your merriage may be one of convenience..

Post by **Obie** » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:09 pm

Those are serious allegations, which if correct are very damaging. Although I must say, based on past experience, that this will not be the first time the minister would have made baseless allegation.

finalversion_2k · Post by **finalversion_2k** » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:21 pm

@Obie In first Para: they are saying she wasn't exercising her EU treaty right so that's why refused (whereas she was working before, between and after divorce, she was also medical insured, 15K in joint account) Honestly to me it sounds little weird..

second Para: documents are fake.. how fake call or visit all those peoples. visit them and check the camera footage.

fourth Para: IF this is found to be the case.. Does that mean they are assuming??

Fifth Para: address the Minster's concerns that your marriage may be one of convenience.. May be one of..

@Obie I saw so many real revocation letters, they mention Date and times when and where EU citizen fly, when she left the state etc etc.. but here nothing..

finalversion_2k · Post by **finalversion_2k** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:49 pm

@Obie : would you please tell me what are my rights?? was married and issued stamp4EUfam, get divorced, apply retention application, 5 year visa expire, currently on temp stamp... and now they Revoked my Expired permissions, and tell me my marriage was shame marriage..

kupuser · Post by **kupuser** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:48 pm

finalversion_2k wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:30 pm
Thanks @kupuser so means affidavit will not help.. may I ask how you sort this issue then??

When my review was refused I applied section 3 application and requested them to grant me temporary permission to allow me to apply for a Critical Skills work permit. I was given 6 months temp permission (stamp 1) to do so by INIS. Later I successfully applied the permit.

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