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Strategy to solve E.U 1 Issue?

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, Administrator

archigabe
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Strategy to solve E.U 1 Issue?

Post by archigabe » Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:42 am

I think one way to work the system is if you can apply for a re-entry visa for Ireland from within Ireland while you are waiting for the E.U1 decision.That would enable someone to make a quick trip to the E.U spouse's home country and apply for a residence card there and come back to Ireland while waiting for the Residence card. You can then use the residence card to satisfy the S.I 656 of residency in another European country. But do check the residence permit requirements for your spouse's country.
INIS page on re-entry visa application form.
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000158

Here's the link to the actual form.
https://www.reachservices.ie/reachPorta ... hp_1886_en

One of the requirements for the re-entry visas is for a GNIB registration number and we can try pointing out that they are not supposed to ask for that according to the E.U directives or even that the Irish S.I 656 does not mention it.The only thing the Irish S.I 656 requires is that you enter from a European country and since you are going to be returning from your spouse's country, the condition is satisfied. It would be probably better to obtain a visa for the E.U spouse's country first.
At the very least the re-entry visa could enable you to travel outside Ireland to visit home etc.

Erik who is another poster on this forum seems to be on his way to have his wife receive residency in Ireland.
Any comments?
Last edited by archigabe on Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:04 pm, edited 6 times in total.

aurbo
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Post by aurbo » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:57 pm

I considered this option as well and almost went through with it. (that is going back to the EU country to get residency) I am American and my husband is Italian (married in April). With the goal in mind of satisfying the requirement for EU residency I flew to Italy in July to start the process for residency. I first called the DOJ and asked if they needed "prior residency proof" or if I could simply fly to Italy and start the process now? She said after putting me on hold for some time that I could start it now. I'm still not sure if that is true because for one...it doesnt even make sense!!
How can you apply for residency legally in one country if your actually living in another (and applying for residency there too)?But, in fact I did go to Rome went through the process up until the point of turning in the actual application because it of course requires you to stay in Italy at a given address until you receive the letter from them to come in, it also forbids you to leave the country until you have the "permesso di soggiorno", permission to stay, and then once they give you notice that you have received it you need to go back and give your thumb and eye prints as well as a photos etc...so it is a lengthy process... they said it could take up until next February before i get the notice in the mail to come back in...in the end it just seemed like I was making more problems...not sure what to do now besides wait for my rejection..ohh ya...signing contract for new job on Monday...just found out can't get a spousal work permit...so ya...looooove it here!

Dimy77
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Post by Dimy77 » Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:32 am

I think that works only in a few EU countries... in Holland, my country of origin, for example this won't work. Under dutch law, my wife can only legally reside in the country for 3 months on a standard tourist stamp, then she will have to go back to her county and make a dutch integration test about dutch culture, society, history and language. If she passes the test, she can apply for a temporary visa to go to Holland. Even then, she will only be granted a residence card if certain conditions are met... The EU spouse for example must have a certain minimum income.
"Funny" thing is that in Holland a non-dutch EU national married to a non EU partner will receive a residence card without these requirements and integration test. So for us that route won't work.

microlab
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Post by microlab » Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:36 am

How can you apply for residency legally in one country if your actually living in another (and applying for residency there too)?
That is correct.One can encounter all sorts of problems trying to exercise this option.

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:02 pm

I agree the proceedure might not be possible for all E.U countries, but it seems to be possible at least in the case of sweden according to Erik84.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ht=#106277
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ght=#82407

scrudu
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Post by scrudu » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:07 am

archigabe wote: One of the requirements for the re-entry visas is for a GNIB registration number and we can try pointing out that they are not supposed to ask for that according to the E.U directives or even that the Irish S.I 656 does not mention it.The only thing the Irish S.I 656 requires is that you enter from a European country and since you are going to be returning from your spouse's country, the condition is satisfied.
I don't see how you can use EU law in this case. The Re-entry visa is granted under Irish Law, and usually they look for your Residency Stamp to issue you the Re-entry visa. They ask for your GNIB card as this will show the Residency Stamp. So I imagine you will be refused a re-entry visa. Has anyone in this situation (i.e. visa status pending while awaiting outcome of EU1 application) actually received a Re-entry visa? Surely they would be refused?

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:26 am

Erik84 says here that his wife was able to obtain a multiple entry re-entry visa as soon as she arrived in Ireland on a spouse visa.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ght=#81329

Under directive 2004/38/EC, the Irish government is not supposed to make any demands for additional paperwork apart from Marriage cert and passports to issue visas for E.U citizen spouses.E.U citizens and their family are dealt under E.U directives and they don't come under Irish law...I could be wrong, but seeing how Erik's wife managed to get one,I dont see how someone else could not.

I also heard recently of some people who had received the full residence cards inspite of not having lived in another E.U country...I don't see how that is possible unless they or their lawyers pulled some strings.I am planning on filing a request under the freedom of Information act to find out how many people have recived papers like that.

http://www.oic.gov.ie/en/MakeanFOIReque ... ublicBody/

http://www.oic.gov.ie/en/PrescribedPubl ... 368,en.htm


We have to put some pressure on the Irish government that they can't decide to implement their laws in an arbitrary way to suit people who call pull the right strings.
Last edited by archigabe on Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

scrudu
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Post by scrudu » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:37 am

Archigabe: I don't understand how Erik's wife was issued a Re-Entry visa.

The Re-Entry visa page (http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000158) states:
NOTE: Before a re-entry visa can be issued, you must be registered with the Garda National Immigration Bureau (GNIB).

and the Registration Page (http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000031) states:
Legally resident non-EEA nationals who have entered the State with the intention of residing in Ireland for a period of more than three months must register with their local immigration registration officer. An immigration certificate of registration is a document that is issued to a non-EEA national who registers with his/her local immigration registration officer. The credit-card sized document is issued by the Garda National Immigration Bureau and includes the person’s photo, residency details and date of expiry.
So without a Residency Stamp (non tourist, i.e. longer than 3 months invalidity), you should not be issued a GNIB Card. And without the GNIB card you wouldn't get a Re-entry visa. I think as Erik said, it was a miracle his wife got it. Definitely worth a shot, but I imagine that most likely the non-EU spouse would be turned away.

I agree with what you are saying about the Directive and that the Irish government shouldn't require any further info, but that is for Residency Visa's, e.g. the Stamp 4 EU FAM via the EU1. If the non-EU spouse doesn't have this, they can't apply for the Re-entry visa?!

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:50 am

2004/38/Ec doesn't just apply for residence permits, it applies to visas as well for E.U citizen families.
According to the Article 5 of the legislation '
'1. Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents applicable to national border controls, Member States shall grant Union citizens leave to enter their territory with a valid identity card or passport and shall grant family members who
are not nationals of a Member State leave to enter their terri-tory with a valid passport.No entry visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on Union citizens.
2.Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt. such family members from the visa requirement.Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure. Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence

I am going to refer that to Europe Direct as well.

http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/fron ... dex_en.htm

http://www.ec.europa.eu/europedirect/index_en.htm

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Post by brownbonno » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:14 am

Archigabe,

Great efforts in explaining the bases of EU citizen's residence rights in the ROI.
It is a shame that the Irish government and her supporters are flawing the EU directives.
The best option for right thinking mind is general disobedience to their transposed version of the directive.A practical way of doing that is to stretch their Immigration control mechanism e.g fly into Dublin Airport without a visa but with a marriage certificate,passport and a copy of the EU directive 2004/38/EC.It will throw their system into confusion for hours.If they have such a case 5-6 times a months.It will surely affect the system and they have to go back to the drawing board to review things.
Last edited by brownbonno on Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Knowledge is Power

scrudu
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Post by scrudu » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:10 am

archigabe: my understanding of that excerpt (sect 2) is that
a) a non-eu spouse may be required to get an entry visa if that is national law (true for Ireland)
b) if that non-eu spouse has a residence permit already (e.g. Stamp 4 EU FAM) they do not need another visa to enter or exit the country
c) if that non-eu spouse does not have the correct entry visa, the Immigration must allow them reasonable opportunity to obtain the documents required etc.

So, I still dont see how you could get a Re-entry visa for a "visa required" non-EU spouse prior to being granted the Residence permit (Stamp 4 EUFAM) is issued. Actually, reading the excerpt, it sounds like the non-EU spouse should not even require a Re-entry visa if they get the Residence card.
brownbonno wrote: It is a shame that the Irish government and her supporters are flawing the EU directives.
I sincerely hope you are not referring to me with that statement!

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Post by archigabe » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:01 pm

Yeah, I posted the question to Europe Direct as well.Lets see what they have to say about it.

brownbonno
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Post by brownbonno » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:08 pm

scrudu,

Please let the ''sleeping dog lie''.Conscience is the best judge.
The ROI have enjoyed so much benefits from the EU Funds and have no moral reason(s) to toy with the EU citizens and their families living in Ireland.There is no sense issuing a Re-entry when the person in question has got a residence permit(what a duplication of efforts).
Knowledge is Power

scrudu
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Post by scrudu » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:27 pm

archigabe: Do post if they give you any useful feedback.

brownbonno: I had a full response to your comments ready, but I'll simplify it to "get over yourself".

Dimy77
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Post by Dimy77 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:53 pm

Did anybody try to contact their local Fianna Fáil councillor and make them aware of this situation? I was adviced to do this by my manager, he's married to a non-EU national himself and was able to speed up his application process considerably.

brownbonno
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Post by brownbonno » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:03 pm

scrudu wrote:archigabe: Do post if they give you any useful feedback.

brownbonno: I had a full response to your comments ready, but I'll simplify it to "get over yourself".
Thank you.
Knowledge is Power

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:05 pm

Dimy77 wrote:Did anybody try to contact their local Fianna Fáil councillor and make them aware of this situation? I was adviced to do this by my manager, he's married to a non-EU national himself and was able to speed up his application process considerably.
Yeah, I am in contact with our T.D...I even sent him a photocopy of the Irish times article of this situation. It's been 2months since we talked to him and they said not to expect anything to be done in August since most of the officials in the govt. are on holidays during this time.

scrudu
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Post by scrudu » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:10 pm

Try Jim O'Keefe, Spokesperson on Justice for Fine Gael. Jim's email address is jim.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie. His office number in Leinster House is 01-618 3196.
Or you can try the Fine Gael Press Office on 01-618 3379, contact person is Sinéad Fennell - sinead.fennell@oireachtas.ie. He has done work on behalf of migrants in the past and is aware of many of the issues facing immigrants and visas with the DoJ.

Dimy77
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Post by Dimy77 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:40 pm

scrudu wrote:Try Jim O'Keefe, Spokesperson on Justice for Fine Gael. Jim's email address is jim.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie. His office number in Leinster House is 01-618 3196.
Or you can try the Fine Gael Press Office on 01-618 3379, contact person is Sinéad Fennell - sinead.fennell@oireachtas.ie. He has done work on behalf of migrants in the past and is aware of many of the issues facing immigrants and visas with the DoJ.
The minister of Justice is Fianna Fáil so doesn't it make more sense to contact them?

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Post by archigabe » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:55 pm

I guess they can ask some uncomfortable and embarassing questions in the Dail on laws passed by incompetent lawmakers.

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