ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

Todays Irish times newspaper

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, Administrator

CamB
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:04 pm
Location: Dublin

Todays Irish times newspaper

Post by CamB » Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:36 am

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontp ... 81381.html

Thousands of couples get deportation notice letters

Thousands of married couples have been issued with notices of intention to deport non-EU spouses, The Irish Times has learned. Kitty Holland reports.

The situation has emerged following a High Court ruling in June which said the Department of Justice was within its rights to insist non-EU spouses of EU citizens must live in another member state before residing here.

The European Commission has confirmed it is investigating the stance taken by the Department of Justice and said that it has received "numerous" complaints from couples affected by the court ruling.

Couples are being issued with "Section 3" letters informing the non-EU spouse that "the Minister proposes to make a deportation order in respect of you" on the grounds of being "unlawfully present in the State".

The letter gives the recipient three options - to leave the State voluntarily, to consent to being deported or to make representations to "remain temporarily in the State" within 15 days.

The Immigrant Council of Ireland (ICI) says it has "about 750 cases" of couples in this situation.

"And that is just those that have come to our offices," says Catherine Cosgrave, legal officer with the ICI. "There will be others going to Citizens Advice Centres, the Migrant Rights Centre and solicitors."

In an unpublished ruling, seen by The Irish Times in June, Mr Justice Michael Hanna said the Department of Justice was intra vires in demanding that non-EU spouses of EU citizens reside legally in another member state before being eligible for residency here.

The case is being appealed to the Supreme Court. The solicitor taking the case, Derek Stewart, said his office was receiving "about 15 cases a day" from couples with "Section 3" letters.

The Department of Justice insists it is correctly implementing the terms of SI 656/2006, introduced in April last year, which lays down that non-EU family members of an EU citizen must reside lawfully in another EU state before being permitted to work and live here. This was introduced despite a directive from the EU introduced three years ago, 2004/38/EC, which says non-EU family members of EU citizens should be automatically permitted to work and live in the EU.

Ms Cosgrave said that the notices were being issued against couples who had married in Ireland.

She believes the measures are being taken to stamp out so-called "marriages of convenience".

A spokeswoman for the Department of Justice said all non-EU spouses who failed to satisfy SI 656 would get "Section 3" letters.

Those who had been in the country legally at the time of their wedding could "contact their local immigration office with a view to regularising their status in the State by renewing their original permission to remain".

Those who were here illegally when they married, however, "are unlawfully present here". They could make representations to the Minister to be allowed to stay on humanitarian grounds.
© 2007 The Irish Times

CloggieVodka
Newly Registered
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Post by CloggieVodka » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:05 am

Personally, this no longer affects myself, as my wife was granted stamp 4 for 2 years, however, I would like to coin the idea of a protesting this in the media.... I'd be up to join a protest march myself..

Any other ideas? Has anyone received anything in the post about this yet? I would imagine new decision letters will be posted shortly. Can the first person to receive such letter please post the precise text in this forum?

take care everyone... seems we're all going to need all the luck and help we can get..

Dimy77
Newbie
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:14 am
Location: Monkstown, co. Dublin, ROI
Contact:

Post by Dimy77 » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:08 am

Luckily me and my wife didn't get married in Ireland and she entered the State legally so it shouldn't apply to us. It's a bit unclear as that's what the Immigrant Council spokesperson said... but the spokesperson for the DOJ says it applies to all EU-1 applicants that don't satisfy SI656... Any people here who received this "Section 3" notification who can shed some light on this?

runie80
Member of Standing
Posts: 488
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 9:17 pm

Post by runie80 » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:19 am

eportation threat over non-EU spouses
Thursday, 30 August 2007 10:13

The Department of Justice has confirmed that several hundred married couples have been issued with notices of intention to deport husbands or wives born outside of the European Union.

It follows a ruling made by the High Court two months ago.

In June the High Court ruled that the Department of Justice had the right to insist that wives or husbands of non-Irish EU citizens, who were not from the EU themselves, must live legally in another member state before moving to Ireland.
Advertisement

That judgment is being appealed in the Supreme Court but in the meantime the Department has issued deportation notices informing the non-EU spouses living in Ireland of the implementation.

The section 3 letters give those under threat of deportation three options: to leave voluntarily; to agree to be deported; or to make representations to stay in Ireland temporarily within the next 15 days.

The Immigrant Council of Ireland has said 2,000 people could be affected by the State's plan.

Speaking on RTÉ Radio's Morning Ireland, solicitor Derek Stewart said if the purpose of the move is to crackdown on convenience marriages, it would be to the detriment of the majority who were genuine couples.

source
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0830/deport.html
In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.

yankeegirl
Senior Member
Posts: 697
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:52 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Post by yankeegirl » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:33 am

I was shocked when I read this. It is utterly appalling. My heart goes out to anyone who is possibly affected by this.

mym
Member of Standing
Posts: 353
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 11:44 am
Location: London

Post by mym » Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:05 am

That's completely outrageous. Hopefully the courts will give a different ruling soon.
--
Mark Y-M
London

megmog
Member
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by megmog » Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:22 am

Well this certainly affects us and I am honestly shocked that the EU is allowing this to happen.

We have not yet recieved anything back from the DoJ (we applied in March) so we probably will soon..

Do you think we should use a solicitor to put together our appeal when we recieve this letter?

archigabe
Moderator
Posts: 1238
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:59 am
Location: Dublin

Post by archigabe » Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:23 am

Yes, this is truly appalling.I arrived here legally on a spouse visa issued by the Irish embassy to join my wife who has been working in Ireland for the last 7 years.
This law makes no sense for cases like us and for me to be deported. I blame it on too many pubs around the Dail!

CloggieVodka
Newly Registered
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Post by CloggieVodka » Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:46 am

one might argue that the issuance of deportation order of the non-EU spouse is unconstitutional, as it forces the EU party to leave the state.
Not only is THAT point against EU community law, but also, to exercise one's rights to remain (for the EU spouse) would be in contrast with the Irish constitution, which vows to defend the 'Family'.

Quote from the Irish Constitution:

The Family

Article 41

1. 1° The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

2° The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.

2.
1° In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2° The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

3.
1° The State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to protect it against attack.

2° A Court designated by law may grant a dissolution of marriage where, but only where, it is satisfied that ­

-i. at the date of the institution of the proceedings, the spouses have lived apart from one another for a period of, or periods amounting to, at least four years during the five years,
-ii. there is no reasonable prospect of a reconciliation between the spouses,
-iii. such provision as the Court considers proper having regard to the circumstances exists or will be made for the spouses, any children of either or both of them and any other person prescribed by law, and
-iv. any further conditions prescribed by law are complied with.

3° No person whose marriage has been dissolved under the civil law of any other State but is a subsisting valid marriage under the law for the time being in force within the jurisdiction of the Government and Parliament established by this Constitution shall be capable of contracting a valid marriage within that jurisdiction during the lifetime of the other party to the marriage so dissolved.


- somehow, somewhere, someone forgot about the INTENT of the law...

checo
Newly Registered
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:06 pm

Post by checo » Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:56 am

That is unbelievable and shocking. Something like this happening in "democratic" country... Very worrying - showing that all the governments have similarities (fashist / "democratic" (irish) / communist...)

archigabe
Moderator
Posts: 1238
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:59 am
Location: Dublin

Post by archigabe » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:06 pm

Dimy77 wrote:Luckily me and my wife didn't get married in Ireland and she entered the State legally so it shouldn't apply to us.
My wife and I got married abroad and I entered legally as well. I have been denied residency but didnt receive deportation order so far. I think it's only a matter of time before we receive one.So we are talking to a solicitor.

yankeegirl
Senior Member
Posts: 697
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:52 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Post by yankeegirl » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:21 pm

I have a feeling that the government night try to push this as far as they can. Right now, it may be only those that married in Ireland, but they can try to extend the plan to anyone they see fit. Even if you don't think you will be affected, get angry! This situation has not received a lot of attention thus far, and IMO, that needs to change. Bombard your TD's with letters, write to media outlets, if there are any immigrant organizations there, get involved, hire solicitors, rattle cages and in general make sure that as a group you cannot be ignored. Just because something doesn't affect you today, doesn't mean it won't down the road.

It's such a shame that Irish citizens and their families receive fair treatment throughout the EU (My husband and I included) yet their counterparts don't receive the same in Ireland. I'm off to write some letters now :D

edk2007
Newly Registered
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:24 pm

Post by edk2007 » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:44 pm

I am really worried especially after the Irish Times article. Apologies if this question has already been answered but please advise.

My wife is Chinese, born in Hong Kong and holds a Brittish National Overseas passport. I am an Irish Citizen. We got married in Ireland and applied for the marriage to Irish citizen residency stamp.

A week before the wedding when we got to Dublin airport my wife was waved on without question (I think when the officer saw the brittish passport he assumed that she has a full brittish passport which is different to a BNO passport)
Hong Kong residents do not require a visa before traveling but get a standard 1-3 month tourist stamp depending on their flight tickets.
So I don't think she is breaking any visa rules given she was never stamped on entry.

My wife has never lived in the EU before so I cannot understand how she can meet the 3 month residence requirement in another EU state.

We applied in March and have not heard anything and I am so so worried that we will be turned down. I have contacted local TD's etc etc but no luck.

If anyone is in a similar situation or has been previously any info would be very helpful.

yankeegirl
Senior Member
Posts: 697
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:52 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Post by yankeegirl » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:57 pm

edk2007,

Do you hold another EU citizenship or are you solely an Irish citizen? I *think* if you are Irish, what you would need to apply for is a spouse visa, not EU1. EU1 is for non-EU family of EU citizens residing in Ireland (ie; family of British, French, Italian and so on) There is a different visa process for spouses of Irish citizens.

I was about to post you to the link on the INIS site but the page about spouses of Irish nationals is down. :(

Dimy77
Newbie
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:14 am
Location: Monkstown, co. Dublin, ROI
Contact:

Post by Dimy77 » Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:42 pm

archigabe wrote:
Dimy77 wrote:Luckily me and my wife didn't get married in Ireland and she entered the State legally so it shouldn't apply to us.
My wife and I got married abroad and I entered legally as well. I have been denied residency but didnt receive deportation order so far. I think it's only a matter of time before we receive one.So we are talking to a solicitor.
I like to think positive and not expect the worst case scenario. That doesn't mean I'm ruling it out either.

My wife came with an interesting theory.... some people have been granted a 2 year stamp to remain legally and work in the State. Up until now we don't really know what separated those cases from people who have been refused completely. Now here's the theory... could it be that the people who received a 2 year stamp were married outside Ireland and entered Ireland legally and that the people who were denied got married in Ireland (and resided illegally in the State?)?

Regards,
Dimy

runie80
Member of Standing
Posts: 488
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 9:17 pm

Post by runie80 » Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:57 pm

More News !

Deportation notices sent to 120 married non-EU nationals
30/08/2007 - 14:15:38

More than 100 married couples face separation after the Government warned non European spouses they have no right to remain in Ireland, it emerged today.

The Department of Justice confirmed 120 notices of deportation have been posted to men or women from outside the EU who married Irish or European citizens.

Thousands more are at risk of deportation.

The immigration crackdown followed a High Court ruling in June which gave the Government the right to insist that non EU spouses must live legally in another member state before moving to Ireland.

Although the case is currently being challenged in the Supreme Court, the section 3 letter warns the 120 people they have the option to leave voluntarily, to agree to be deported, or to make representations to stay in Ireland temporarily within the next 15 days.

The Justice Department stressed only foreign nationals who entered the country illegally were issued with the notice, adding that none have yet been deported.

Solicitor Derek Stewart, who is taking the case, said those affected can be left in a legal limbo and are unable to work or travel.

The Immigrant Council of Ireland (ICI) maintains 750 people have made contact with its office since the beginning of the year claiming to be affected by the decision.

“This is the biggest single issue we are dealing with at the moment,â€
In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.

archigabe
Moderator
Posts: 1238
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:59 am
Location: Dublin

Post by archigabe » Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:01 pm

well, we got married abroad and I entered legally on a spouse visa.We got treated like sh** at the GNIB when we went to ask for stamp3 and refused.

Dimy77
Newbie
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:14 am
Location: Monkstown, co. Dublin, ROI
Contact:

Post by Dimy77 » Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:09 pm

archigabe wrote:well, we got married abroad and I entered legally on a spouse visa.We got treated like sh** at the GNIB when we went to ask for stamp3 and refused.
I think the GNIB is treating people like sh**t regardless of whether they are approved residency or not... it's a depressing place, I feel sorry for the people who have to work there. It doesn't give them to right to treat people like that, but they're only human after all.... *sigh*

I don't want to talk it right what they are doing, but if they are sending out the deportation letters *ONLY* to Eu-spouses who were residing illegally in Ireland at the time of their marriage I can't blame them. So far nobody here posted that they have received such a letter, so until we have more information we shouldn't blow it out of proportions. I'm still feeling positive.

Platinum
Member
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:21 pm
Location: London-ish, UK

Post by Platinum » Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:20 pm

I only just noticed that the article said they were deporting non-EU spouses (who entered the country illegally) of both EU and Irish citizens.

So it's not just an EU1 or Directive 2004/38/EC issue, at this point.

It also seems to imply that even spouses of Irish citizens have to have resided in another EU country first. Surely that's not right, either.

megmog
Member
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by megmog » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:01 pm

Ok, this may sound like a stupid question but... how do we know if we are here illegally?

My husband is south african (and I am british) and we arrived here without any visa's.. my husband was given the usual 3 month visa (to join eu spouse written on it) that is usually given to non-eea nationals who are visitors.

Obviously this has since expired. did he enter the country illegally?..

basically, will we get the section 3 letter?

we married in south africa last year and we applied for the form eu1 before my husbands 3 month-visa/thing expired...

yankeegirl
Senior Member
Posts: 697
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:52 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Post by yankeegirl » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:12 pm

Memog,

He entered the country legally. As far as I know, you are not in breach of the immigration rules if you have a pending application/appeal even if your initial stamp is expired. At the moment, it seems that the cases involve a situation where the non-EU partner was already in Ireland illegally and then married a EU citizen in Ireland and then applied for EU1.

archigabe
Moderator
Posts: 1238
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:59 am
Location: Dublin

Post by archigabe » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:17 pm

Dimy77 wrote:I don't want to talk it right what they are doing, but if they are sending out the deportation letters *ONLY* to Eu-spouses who were residing illegally in Ireland at the time of their marriage I can't blame them. So far nobody here posted that they have received such a letter, so until we have more information we shouldn't blow it out of proportions. I'm still feeling positive.
I would be so positive for the future.After these guys get loaded on a few pints at the pub and decide their kids aren't getting into the right schools because of 'those immigrants', who do you think they are going to start issuing deportation letters to next?

CloggieVodka
Newly Registered
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Post by CloggieVodka » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:22 pm

well... dont' want to get off topic.. but Ireland was one of the first countries to accept workers from the accession states.. this influx of people has caused a lot more problems than the few hundred non-EU spouses. (not those people are the problem, but the fact that the government accepted more people than it could cater for in the way of school and healthcare/services development.

If anyone's to blame here, then it's the government. glad I didn't vote for the current lot.

CamB
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:04 pm
Location: Dublin

Post by CamB » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:28 pm

How do you get a stamp 4?

We went to the INIS offices last week to get my 3 months visitors Visa extended as we need to travel next month and was told by the guy issuing tickets that we should just request a stamp 4 and then I can work and stay here 2 years!
So, we got our ticket, waited 3 hours and were told that we can't get the stamp 4 as it's only for certain circumstances....which he wouldn't tell us about. They told me i had to wait for the outcome of my EU1 application.

A stamp 4 would be ideal for now because I just want to work, pay taxes and take some of the burden off my wife who is supporting the both of us.

edk2007
Newly Registered
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:24 pm

Post by edk2007 » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:37 pm

yankeegirl wrote:edk2007,

Do you hold another EU citizenship or are you solely an Irish citizen? I *think* if you are Irish, what you would need to apply for is a spouse visa, not EU1. EU1 is for non-EU family of EU citizens residing in Ireland (ie; family of British, French, Italian and so on) There is a different visa process for spouses of Irish citizens.

I was about to post you to the link on the INIS site but the page about spouses of Irish nationals is down. :(
Hi Yankeegirl,

Thanks for the response, I am solely an Irish Citizen so yes I think you are right my application was for a spouse visa. It is so confusing because the local Garda immigration officer told me that the EU 1 was the right form. and then my application was sent back to us and I sent it again.

The INIS site is always down or under construction.

All these recent developments are scary, I think my wife did enter legally and did not overstay so I am praying that no section 3 letter arrives.
She entered a week before we got married and I sent the application off before she could be considered as to overstay her potential visa/stamp. I am not sure if it was a good thing or bad thing that the customs officer did not stamp her passport only time will tell.

My heart goes out to anyone who has received these letters, it is a terrible state of affairs.

Locked
cron