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UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

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chrislemess
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UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by chrislemess » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:39 am

Ok folks, I've done a fair bit of reading and I'm a little bit confused as I'm familiar with process in UK and now muddling the two (and the order we'd need to do it).

Thanks in advance for any advice!

I am a UK citizen with passport (though do not live there, I'm also Australian). I currently live in Montenegro, with my partner of 5 years. She and I have the usual bits and pieces of evidence of our relationship, which has been consistent and in a state of cohabitation for 4 or 5 years. She is Australian.

I am currently self employed (I run an accomm. business here) and have lots of cash to show for it, though not a lot of paperwork (it's the Balkans).

In September we want to move to Ireland, where I will work and she will study (though it's an acting course and does not qualify for student visa). She also wishes to work though I understand she'll need an additional permit for this.

From what I understand, she is a permitted family member of a Union citizen. We need this form: ( http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Form%20E ... 20EU1A.pdf )

My questions:
1. Can we send in this form now, and use the spare time we have so the notoriously slow dept can do their work? Or must I already be in Ireland, exercising my right to abode there, with a job etc.
2. Does she need the GNIB card (now IRP?) before we apply using above form? There is a space for it, which confused me.
3. Are there any other tactical measures we should be using? We are planning to get married at some point anyway, should we just do this now and would it avoid hassles (I noticed it's a much shorter form).

Thanks a bunch for any advice,
Chris

shpirtshqipe
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by shpirtshqipe » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:57 pm

1. You must be in Ireland with your partner before applying for the EUFAM Visa (Residence Permit).

Your partner Doesn't need a visa to enter Ireland albeit less or more than 3 months.
Link to check if partner needs visa: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/check-irish-visa

2. Once both of you are in Ireland you need about 3 months to fully settle as a Ordinary Resident. This includes opening a bank account, tenancy agreement, job, utility bills. Once the aforementioned are at hand you can then proceed to apply for a EUFAM (Residence Permit).

3. Marrying would be ideal since the process would then be straightforward (the same goes for partner but longer application form).

chrislemess
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by chrislemess » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:49 pm

Great thank you, most helpful!

I've read a bit more so I see only one potential problem: namely how to get her in to the country. She doesn't need a visa as an Aussie, but that doesn't mean airline staff will let us board. I've read plenty on the eumovement wordpress website and it seems that whilst things go easier for married couples who can produce a marriage cert, it's potentially more problematic for unmarried couples. Not so much upon entry to Ireland (even if they stamp her in for less than 3 months, this seems OK by immigration dept as long as process is in motion), but for boarding at airport. Come to think of it if we were flying from UK are there even passport checks?

One last thought that's probably hard to answer: would current date of Brexit cause us trouble? The 6 month process might not be complete by March next year as we're not moving there until Sept/Oct. Or are these EU freedom of movement laws likely to be upheld for UK citizens until they can sort out the mess?

Cheers,
Chris

shpirtshqipe
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by shpirtshqipe » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:46 pm

I would avoid flying from the UK with Ryanair since they carry out visa check. I haven’t flown with other airlines from the UK so other members may provide help from their personal experiences.

Driving from Northern Ireland might be an option since there are no borders. You could consider taking the ferry from the UK where again there’s usually no passport or visa checks.

As for Brexit you’ll enjoy the Freedom of Movement Rights up until the date UK leaves the Union officially. After this period no one knows for certain what and how such rights will be affected.

chrislemess
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by chrislemess » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:07 pm

Thanks. Looks like best way might be to head down by train from Belfast, then go in to immigration in Dublin to get an official arrival stamp (presumably needed in order to show date of arrival in to Ireland...)

jlad
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by jlad » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:54 am

As an australian, your wife does not need a visa to enter Ireland. So she could just fly with any airlines with no issues. An airline does not has the right to refuse to board a passenger unless he/she does not has the visa to enter the said country, if he/she is a visa-required national.

All you could do, if you are taking Ryanair, just do the non-EU visa check before boarding the flight. In my experience, Ryanair is only strict when it comes to visa-required national entering a country without a visa - for example, you are using EU rights to enter a country without a visa as that would cause a bit of confusion at check in and high chance they would refuse you boarding without a valid visa (they are not trained on Immigration matters + EU laws are very complicated)

I am non-EU non-visa required national to Ireland as well and i have went to Ireland 3 times with Ryanair on all occasion. Never been asked by Ryanair as it is not in their position to decide whether or not i would be allowed into Ireland as their job is mostly verifying that i do not require a visa to enter. It is the job of the Immigration officer at the point of entry to decide whether or not to let you in the country. But it is important to bring your British passport with you so once on arrival, inform the Immigration officer your Intention to reside in the state with your Australian wife.

jlad
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by jlad » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:07 am

there are immiration checks even flying from the UK (Great Britain in this case, NI has no border with Republic of Ireland). Technically speaking, since you are also British citizen, you are not required by law to have a passport to enter Ireland, thanks to Common Travel Area. But, you would need to satisfy immigration officer that you are British by showing some sort of valid ID, Driving License for example. Very often a passport is used because it is the most straight-forward document to proof your nationality.

chrislemess
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by chrislemess » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:05 pm

Thanks folks, I hoped for this answer: that airline's responsibility is to check necessity of visa, not whether or not there are/aren't additional circumstances that means the country won't accept you in...
Cheers,
Chris

Mal111
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by Mal111 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:38 pm

chris

you should also look at other options fully relying on eu treaty rights as a British national could be a bit risky in current political environment i mean if the transition period is not agreed between uk and eu then your outside the protection of eu treaty rights therefore you wont be eligible for your spouse residence card.
also the transition period may have some conditions full freedom of eu citz movement may not be permitted or the benefits to non eu spouses or both.
if your moving here in sept /oct 2018 slim chances your application will be approved before mar 2019.

not trying to discourage you but you should know all the issues before hand so you can tackle them and be prepared in advance.

i hope all work out for you

jlad
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by jlad » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:08 pm

According to what is published on gov.uk, It looks like UK has already secured an agreement and confirmed on certain citizen rights for British/Irish after UK has leave the EU.
The agreement reached at the December Council ensures that the rights enjoyed by British and Irish citizens under the CTA are protected after the UK leaves the EU.

This means that no UK or Irish nationals will be required to apply for settled status to protect their entitlements in Ireland and the UK respectively. The rights to work, study, access social security and public services will be preserved on a reciprocal basis for UK and Irish nationals.

There will be also be full protection and maintenance of the current arrangements for journeys between the UK and Ireland. This includes movement across the land border between Northern Ireland, protecting the uninhibited movement enjoyed today.
The above is quoted on https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ravel-area Read more for more Information.

Having said that, the rights only apply to British citizen, whether the agreement is extended to spouses, that is still not known yet. As far as the eeport is concerned, you have every right to move to Ireland on the basis on your British nationality even after Brexit, just like how Irish would be able to live and work in the UK because this set of rules are under Common Travel Area arrangement and not EU rules. I am sure they are working on the rights to be extended to the spouses.

Hope this Information helps.

chrislemess
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by chrislemess » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:46 pm

Hmm yes valid points Mal and something I was worried about.

But I guess I figured that if I had rights as an EU citizen to be there with partner then I would also in the future have rights as UK citizen. It's a lot to presume but it makes sense for all the brits who are there. BUT it could be very complicated.

I'm wondering if the better option, even though it doesn't work at all with my schedule, is to try and get to Ireland earlier, say in June, in order to start the process and have it completed by the time Brexit comes along. The only drama of course being that we'd need to leave and head back to the continent, mid-process, which no doubt would cause problems with all those entry and exit stamps, temp stamp 4 and all that. Damn.

Sounds like the earlier we can get there in Sept and start the process, the more likely it'll be all fixed up by the time Brexit happens in March... got me a bit worried now!

Mal111
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by Mal111 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:45 pm

i hear the point jlad making about common travel area and all but the issue is not your nationality as a brit the issue is with your spouse who is a non eu and non brit

residence cards are given only under eu laws to non eu spouses which will not apply to you and subsequently to your wife
just like may is saying the eu citizen living in uk can apply for citizenship and the the one that are there can remain but they are not talking about their non eu spouses yet even in best circumstances holder of residence card can continue to enjoy their entitlement after brexit but you haven't even applied yet

the question is what are the chances that your wife will get residence card before mar 2019.




thanks

chrislemess
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by chrislemess » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:42 pm

Hmm so realistically I wonder what's the quickest we can do this? And is this the process:

We arrive and due to some miracle find a place to live and a job in the first week (I know, not likely in current Dublin climate). Get a tenancy agreement, a utility bill, open a bank account. PPS numbers.

Then we go to GNIB with form for EUFAM, hand it in?

Then 2 or 3 weeks later we get a letter saying come in. We go back in to GNIB and they stamp her passport with temp Stamp 4.

Wait 6 months.

Is that how it works? Why does it ask for a GNIB number for my partner in this form: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Form%20E ... 20EU1A.pdf ? Is it because they will give her a temp one the first time we go in to see them?

Thanks!

Mal111
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by Mal111 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:18 pm

slightly different

you arrive here get place and job

fill the eu1a form if applying as partner and sent the docs
they will consider your application first and then send you an acknowledgement letter along with instruction to go to gnib and get a temp stamp while ur application is in process. with out the letter of eu treaty right section gnib will not give you temporary stamp

then 6 later you should get your approval letter you will then dgo again to gnib and they will register your spouse and give her 5 year residence card

chrislemess
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by chrislemess » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:36 am

Ok great, thanks. So why does the EU1a form ask for a GNIB number? Do we have to somehow get her a temp one of them before filling out the form? Or does she get it upon entry?

A couple more questions (thank you so much by the way Mal, you seem knowledgable and this is doing my head in):
1. Can I use significant cash savings as evidence of self sufficiency instead of finding a job? (100k plus) How would I prove this?
2. We might be able to do this sooner. But would she be allowed to leave the country for say 10 days (planned trip) by herself while she has a temp stamp 4? Or is that a big no-no?

Thanks mate

Mal111
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by Mal111 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:46 pm

about the gnib number most people who apply already living here and are registered so they have gnib number its the number that is on our garda card they don't give it on airport

when you will be here and filling your form you can email eu treaty section and ask them they reply pretty quick im sure they will tell you to leave that section blank but make sure you have this email from them in writing.

self sufficient is pretty straight fwd open a joint bank account in Ireland have some money there
get a comprehensive insurance for u and ur partner as soon as you arrive in state
also keep some evidence that can demonstrate you can support ur self and her now and in future, having an amount of sum is funds available but in order to prove self sufficient you must be able to show continues inflow of funds in future for maintenance of future self sufficiency.

she can travel once she get the temporary stamp as long as its only 1 few days trip long absence from state will draw negative attention that is not just for your partner that is also for you just double check the re-entry visa thing I think Australians don't need entry visa but just be sure !

Again your going through all these obstacles to be with your partner your clearly a genuine couple and if things are that serious get married the difference between form eu1 and eu1a is 6 pages to 21 pages lol anyway she will make you tie the knot sooner or later its an eventuality brother :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

chrislemess
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by chrislemess » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:01 pm

Ok great, let's say I bring over 100k in cash and plonk it in an Irish bank account jointly owned by me and her.

Do I then also need to show that I have money regularly coming in? Or do I bring in half of that cash, and then bring in another say 5k a month at regular intervals? Or is this a moot point because when we arrive and I bring in lots of cash and then apply, they only see this amount and can't see potential future amounts that I might bring in. Or do I need to write something or somehow show that I have regular future money coming in?

Yeah and re: wedding it depends if we can organise it in time but unlikely! So if we want to prove durable relationship, how many official letters/utilities do we need over course of last 4 years? Photos, airline tickets, all that stuff is easy and we have plentiful evidence. But due to moving to different countries, trying to keep home address on things for tax reasons it seems we can only prove living in the same place (on paper) at about 3 or 4 seperate locations in last 4 years... Is that OK do you know?

Cheers mate

Mal111
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by Mal111 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:10 pm

the amount you hav specified is more then ok I don't think there will be an issue to prove your self sufficiency.
just have some proof for each year make sure not to miss a full year without any proof of residence.

wait till more senior members respond I don't have much knowledge in Form eu1A

chrislemess
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Re: UK Citizen bringing non-EEA partner to Ireland

Post by chrislemess » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:33 pm

Sure I'll see what others have to say...

When you say proof for each year of residence you mean documented proof of cohabitation yeah? Like official bill/rent agreement etc/bank statement? We have that, but have a fair gap 2016/2017 as we were living in a building I own but where she was not there on paper (no bills etc). Can we fill that gap with proof shared travel, photos etc etc?

Thanks!

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