National Insurance Number

Hi all,

I am working for one of those Indian companies. We are given no National Insurance number, and the compnay is showing no interest in getting one. They say the employees are registered under a group Insurance number and very reluctant to give away the information for some reason. Is there some thing called Group Insurance for naional Insurance if so how can I get it.

Regards,
Poster.

Poster, you are employed in the UK? Your payslips detail deductions of PAYE and National Insurance?

If so and you do not have a national insurance number ("NINO") then contact your nearest Job Centre and inform them that you do not have a NINO and could you please have an interview to get one.

A "Group Insurance for National Insurance"? Someone is joking with you! The fact is that each individual has their own NINO and of course that needs to be the case as their contributions are credited to their account, and that has an impact upon the possible entitlement to benefits in the future. So failure to get your own NINO is detrimental to you.

How long have you worked in the UK?

Just picking up on :-

We are given no National Insurance number, and the company is showing no interest in getting one.

It is not down to the employer to get you a NINO. All they need to do is to note it in their payroll records once you have informed them what it is. Contact a Job Centre without delay.

John,

Thanks for your reply. I am employed in UK for the past one year. This Indian Company does not issue me a formal payslip. It issues a paper and some financial figures on it ever month. It terms me as a temporary worker and the company says “Temporary workers residing in the UK on a Work Permit are not entitled to take recourse to public funds”. It also says “Obtaining NI registration at individual level gives no benefit. Hence the Company would not prefer to encourage its associates to go for individual NI registration.”

My question is

Is it legal to work without NI number on temporary basis as the company says? Is the compnay's statement is true and reliable?


Regards,
Poster

Poster,
It is the responsibility of the employee to get NI number. All that the employer has to do is to deduct appropriate taxes from the salary of the employee in PAYE and remit it to the inland revenue. You will have to call up a job centre/social security office and appear for an interview to get NI number. You will have to produce your passport, work permit, pay slips, employment letter etc. at the time of interview. You can work perfectly well without an NI number which is perfectly legal (I did for 4 years) but it is better to get one as you might have to produce it is some cases.
The company that obtained work permit for you is obliged to deduct taxes and national insurance contributions from your salary and pay the deducted amount to Inland revenue promptly- if they do not do that, they will be in big trouble if revenue finds out that is the case.

Poster wrote:John,

Thanks for your reply. I am employed in UK for the past one year. This Indian Company does not issue me a formal payslip. It issues a paper and some financial figures on it ever month. It terms me as a temporary worker and the company says “Temporary workers residing in the UK on a Work Permit are not entitled to take recourse to public funds”. It also says “Obtaining NI registration at individual level gives no benefit. Hence the Company would not prefer to encourage its associates to go for individual NI registration.”


Regards,
Poster

I am afraid that company of yours appears to be a *Cowboy* company possibly dogding tax and Employer NI contributions

Poster, I reiterate, contact a Job Centre as soon as possible and proceed to get a NINO!

Why? Well let's just say your employer is falling into a trap, or at least making an assumption that may not be correct at all. They are quite right to say that a person with a restricted visa cannot claim certain Public Funds. However, two problems with that statement :-

• the Public Funds list of benefits you cannot claim at the moment does not include absolutely all types of benefit paid by the UK Government. Accordingly there could be circumstances that entitle you to claim something without breaching the "No recourse to Public Funds" visa restriction, and it could well be the case that you need a NINO contribution record in order to get that benefit.
• they are assuming that you will always be the holder of a restricted visa! But that assumption could be entirely wrong. NINO contributions paid while you have a restricted visa will count towards you being entitled to claim a benefit after that restriction is lifted from you.

In short, the statement "Obtaining NI registration at individual level gives no benefit." is totally wrong. Sounds like your employer could do with getting a competent payroll/HR department.

davidm wrote:Poster,
You can work perfectly well without an NI number which is perfectly legal (I did for 4 years) but it is better to get one as you might have to produce it is some cases.

David,

Could you please give the situation when this is "perfectly legal".

Regards,
Poster

Poster wrote:

davidm wrote:Poster,
You can work perfectly well without an NI number which is perfectly legal (I did for 4 years) but it is better to get one as you might have to produce it is some cases.

David,

Could you please give the situation when this is "perfectly legal".

Regards,
Poster

I was on a work permit, used to get salary every month with tax and NI contributions deducted properly, used NHS when I got sick... and realised that I did not have an NI number when I was about to apply for my indefinitel leave Went for an interview at the job centre and got NI number in a month. No problem with ILR application either. The revenue even knew how much tax and NI contributions I had paid without having NI number.
There are many of my colleagues who are EU citizens who work in the UK without NI number.

davidm wrote:The revenue even knew how much tax and NI contributions I had paid without having NI number.

This is because your employer not only deducted taxes and NI contributions from your salary, but also paid them to IR. Reading stories about Indian companies (and having some practical experience) I very doubt that they really pay deducted taxes to IR.

What I do not understand is why nobody (especially IR) cares?!

AlexCh wrote:

davidm wrote:The revenue even knew how much tax and NI contributions I had paid without having NI number.

This is because your employer not only deducted taxes and NI contributions from your salary, but also paid them to IR. Reading stories about Indian companies (and having some practical experience) I very doubt that they really pay deducted taxes to IR.

What I do not understand is why nobody (especially IR) cares?!

Clearly you can not hold the employee for the fault of the employer- until the Home office does not ask the work permit holder to get a NI number, working without an NI number is not illegal
Revenue is starting to crack down on the so-called cowboy companies by the way, and checking whether the work permit holder actually works for the company or not and whether he/she is being paid properly or not randomly.

Poster

Sorry to say this but I think your company is crooked. It is clear that you must get a National Insurance Number as soon as you start work. It's the law and a requirement for work permits and HSMP. See the excerpt below from the Inland Revenue website:

http://www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/nic/ynino.htm#4

When Do I Apply For A NI Number?

No one has a legal right to a NI number but there are circumstances you are legally obliged to formally apply for one and to register for NI purposes.

Criteria for applying for a NI number

If you do not already have a NI number you must apply for one as soon as you start work or you or your partner claims benefit.

In my opinion your company is obviously trying to avoid paying payroll taxes. They may be deducting 'taxes' from your wages and keeping them rather than depositing them with Indland Revenue and crediting them to your National Insurance account. In other words, they may be stealing from you.

You will not get a National Insurance number at a Jobcentre without a letter from your employer. I doubt your employer will cooperate. I think you may want to report this matter to the Revenue and the Home Office.

The payment of taxes and NI contributions is ultimately your responsibility. Under the new Immigration guidelines being proposed for the next few years, the requirements for ILR and FLR will be tightened up and proof of tax contributions will be required. You won't be able to do this without a National Insurance Number. While people have up to now have gotten ILR without a tax review, this will be changing soon.

Joseph

Joseph wrote: I think you may want to report this matter to the Revenue and the Home Office.

and how long will he keep his employment after that?

This is a problem - I have been reading similar stories on this forum for at least 2 years, sometimes people even mentioned the names of the companies (and they were BIG names involved into government contracts in the UK) - so what? Have you seen any company punished for this?

This is what gives bad name to work permit scheme and immigration in general.

You're right about there being a risk that the job will end. But, my point is that Poster should start looking for a new employer because the current one is lying and breaking the law. Just because big companies are doing it, doesn't mean it's right or legal.

Unfortunately the pattern repeats itself over and over again. These companies (usually Indian IT companies from the postings here) know people won't complain because of fear of losing their jobs, thus requiring them to leave the UK. These companies are the same ones that refuse to provide support letters for ILR at the end of 4 years, because once ILR is given, they cannot exploit the workers anymore. We see examples of this all the time on this board. Someone who falls into that situation at the end of 4 years (with the added problem of not properly paying taxes and NI contributions) has only himself to blame if the Home Office refuses to grant ILR (because of no letter) or citizenship (because taxes are not paid).

Joseph

The below statements are from the company document again.

“As a policy, the company pays salary to its associates at their respective base location (Back in India). While on deputation to overseas location, associates (employees) are paid allowances just sufficient to meet their basic expenses. For the allowances paid, as per the terms laid down by the Inland Revenue, The Company is complying with the PAYE (Tax) requirements by submitting the relevant documents to Inland Revenue for each financial year. Such documentation as required by Inland Revenue is submitted at the Company level in UK; hence no individual level documentation is prepared.”

Does this make any sense that I am not having a personal NI number.

Regards,
Poster.

Effectively what they are telling you is

A. You are employed in India and payed your salary in India.
B. You are only given an allowance here to manage your expenses.

These kind of companies get their work permits approved because they claim to have branches in both countries and have inter-company transfers on temporary basis. The trick is to give the employee a really low 'allowance' here in the UK by which they will escape paying any significant amount as tax while at the same time pay the guy what he was getting back home. Its a very unethical way of doing business and especially unfair to you.

If I were in your position, I would forget NI for the moment and try to obtain alternative employment in the UK. NI is a very small part of your problem. Once you join a normal company you will have everything you need to get an NI.

You might also consider applying for HSMP. These days new applications are being processed quickly. It will give you the freedom you need.

Poster

It does not make sense that you don't have a NI number.

The key question is: where is your work being done? In the UK or India? If your work is being done here in the UK, it is fully taxable in the UK even though the salary is paid in India. This rule applies regardless of your tax residence status.

If the company's employees are indeed located in the UK and performing their work in the UK, I believe that statement is very self-incriminating with Inland Revenue.

Joseph

Assuming I am getting a job here with another employer, Won’t they ask my NI number at the time of joining. If at all my future employer does not ask wont the people at the Job Center ask about the NI number at the time of registration.

Regards,
Poster

Poster wrote:Assuming I am getting a job here with another employer, Won’t they ask my NI number at the time of joining. If at all my future employer does not ask wont the people at the Job Center ask about the NI number at the time of registration.

Regards,
Poster

Poster,

You have been given sufficient advise - but you are still moving around in circles.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS..

You eitherr get the NINO (which is the best option) or you forget about it...


Check the www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk website for guidance

You should be upfront with a new employer and explain that your current employer didn't help you get a NI number. If they want to hire you, they can help you get one by providing a letter to the JobCentre along with a work permit.

The JobCentre should not have a problem if you have a new work permit and a letter from your employer. If they notice that you have been here without a NI number, their attitude will probably be "better late than never."

The sooner you correct this situation the better. Once you get "on the system" with proper tax payments, it won't matter so much what happened earlier.

Joseph

Joseph wrote: The key question is: where is your work being done? In the UK or India? If your work is being done here in the UK, it is fully taxable in the UK even though the salary is paid in India. This rule applies regardless of your tax residence status.

Yes - but it's employee responsibility to pay proper taxes in the UK, if IR starts asking questions about taxes on the money paid abroad, the employer will not be responsible for this. Looks like an interesting trick.

Poster,
Agree with AlexCh that the taxes are ultimately your responsibility. If your goal is to stay here long term, you really should get another employer.

Under the tax rules, if you are physically located in the UK and working here, the wages are taxable, even if they are paid offshore and stay offshore. If you are physically located offshore when some of the work is performed, the wages on that work may (in limited cases) not be taxable provided the money stays offshore. But if you bring that money to the UK, it is usually taxable when you remit it. You need to NI number not only for National Insurance, but also for the payment of taxes. That's why everybody working in the UK is required to get one.

Probably your best route is via a new work permit because the new company will take care of the application, which is judged on the company's and the job's merits. Applying for HSMP could be a problem for you (assuming you qualify) because the HSMP caseworker may notice that PAYE taxes were not properly paid. This will be less likely to be spotted with a Work Permit application.

Joseph

Joseph, I agree with everything else you say but not with :-

You need to NI number not only for National Insurance, but also for the payment of taxes.

Whether a person has a NINO makes no difference to whether they are liable to pay taxes.

Indeed some people, totally non-resident in the UK, but with investment income arising in the UK, might possibly be liable to pay taxes to the UK Government. Clearly such a person will not have a NINO.

But I do agree that the Inland Revenue sometimes use the NINO as a tax reference, but as said above, lack of NINO does not cut out a tax liability arising.

The OP should proceed to get a NINO without delay.

John,

Yes, you're right that it's possible to pay certain taxes (like investment income or VAT) without a National Insurance number, but not employment or self-employment taxes which pertain to nearly all of us who are trying to live and work in the UK.

Anyone employed or self employed in the UK must pay National Insurance contributions, which require having a NINO. [Make no mistake -- National Insurance is a tax regardless of what the politicians say!] All of the payroll tax forms ask for the NINO, which is why I made my statement fairly general.

Once the NINO is obtained, the Inland Revenue links it with the taxpayer's unique account number (UTR) so that either number can be used for tax reporting. Most people don't even know what their UTR is, so the NINO is the number more commonly used. I find it rather strange and amusing that two taxpayer account numbers are used in the UK, unlike other countries I have lived in.

Thanks for the clarification.

Regards

Joseph

Joseph, I don't think we are disagreeing. I fully appreciate the importance of the NINO to the Inland Revenue.

I was merely trying to emphasise that taxes, including national insurance contributions, still need to be paid even if a proper NINO has not been allocated.

So given that is the case, there really is no logical reason why anyone legally in the UK, and working or legally claiming benefits, should not want to get a NINO.

I am an old member but forgot my password. This question and similar replies have existed on this board for past three years or more. However, there is clearly lack of expert information. there is certainly a provision in the revenue laws that allows the companies to either choose PAYE scheme (with NINO, P60 etc) or scheme to pay these taxes / NI at company level (with NINO, P60 to individuals).

There are certain very big names in the play who have adopted this practice and they wont do it unless perfectly legitimate. they have just too much to loose for not to follow legal requirements. these are not small shops who wouldn't mind taking risks for short term gains.

What we need to find is whether employees under such schemes (no NINO, P60 etc.) can apply for ILR, HSMP or BC. There is no written provision anywhere that they can't. I know many people who have got ILR and few who have received BC - who were covered by such scheme.

I know respectable members of this board may not agree. And they are right in doing so. However, that could be because they are not aware of such provisions in the law.

It would great if someone can really dig in this and give a studied opinion / share their experience on the topic once for all. It can't be that these big companies are getting 100 WPs processed per week, have 1000s of employees in the UK ( many of them for more than 4-5 years at a stretch ), have international operations, have been widely regarded as best companies / leaders worldwide in their core area of expertise, have received corporate ethical practice awards would do something this blatant for a short term and little gain compared to what they would loose if found violating laws. It is easy to say 'yes they do / can' but not easy for those companies to do not for 3- 4 but many years on a regular basis with 1000s of people.