Naturalization - EEA - WRS issue + AN form questions

Sas Sam wrote:Seems the decision to apply for PR first before Naturalization was the best thing! Thanks @noajthan again! The Form AN changed on 02/11 as well as the Booklet. The section 2.4 changed a lot and seems everyone should have to apply for PR first.

Instead of the tables where we have to mention our previous workplaces, it has been removed and added a new block which says:

Please state the number of your Permanent Residence card and the date of issue:"

The Booklet modified too. It get additional text:

You should apply for a permanent residence card to prove that you hold that status before applying for citizenship

and

You will need to provide evidence of 6 years continuous residence when you apply for your permanent residence card.

I'm still waiting for any result from HO.

To be honest I didn't see that change coming but applying for PR card seemed a prudent move for your circumstances.

We're still rooting for you - good luck.

So... This is the 7th week already since I've sent the PR application and I haven't received anything yet. Also one of my friend (he is from same country as I'm) sent his Naturalisation Form directly without having PR on 29/10 and he just received the biometric enrolment letter today. Many people here in the forum said to me that I won't get biometric enrolment letter because I'm EU member. But why did my friend get it then? So I'm really getting worried ... What should I do?

Good news! Today I've received all my documents back in my prepaid special delivery envelope and my PR card has been enclosed as well! I'm really happy now!

Tomorrow I'll call the council to book a slot for NCS and start to fill in the new AN Form again!

Sas Sam wrote:Good news! Today I've received all my documents back in my prepaid special delivery envelope and my PR card has been enclosed as well! I'm really happy now!

Tomorrow I'll call the council to book a slot for NCS and start to fill in the new AN Form again!

Good news indeed.

Be aware of the recent changes that made a PR card a mandatory prerequisite for naturalisation.

It is unclear if an applicant has to hold their PR card for 1 year before applying for privilege of citizenship.
The new guidance from Gov UK seems poorly worded & somewhat unclear on whether that is the case or not;
you could say the jury is still out on that point.

Anyway, as ever, forewarned is forearmed so you can dig into that detail a little further as you wish.
Good luck.

Sas Sam wrote:So... This is the 7th week already since I've sent the PR application and I haven't received anything yet. Also one of my friend (he is from same country as I'm) sent his Naturalisation Form directly without having PR on 29/10 and he just received the biometric enrolment letter today. Many people here in the forum said to me that I won't get biometric enrolment letter because I'm EU member. But why did my friend get it then? So I'm really getting worried ... What should I do?

There are different laws & rules governing the requirements for PR compared to citizenship.
Since earlier this year, everyone has to enrol their biometrics as a part of the naturalisation process.

noajthan wrote:Good news indeed.

Be aware of the recent changes that made a PR card a mandatory prerequisite for naturalisation.

It is unclear if an applicant has to hold their PR card for 1 year before applying for privilege of citizenship.
The new guidance from Gov UK seems poorly worded & somewhat unclear on whether that is the case or not;
you could say the jury is still out on that point.

Anyway, as ever, forewarned is forearmed so you can dig into that detail a little further as you wish.
Good luck.

Bad news. I've just talked to the Nationality Checking Service... and you was right (unfortunately). From now on I can apply for citizenship only if I've held my PR status at least 12 months... so I can apply only in next year Nov. It's a massive sucks!

Sas Sam wrote:Bad news. I've just talked to the Nationality Checking Service... and you was right (unfortunately). From now on I can apply for citizenship only if I've held my PR status at least 12 months... so I can apply only in next year Nov. It's a massive sucks!

Sorry to let you down but due to the recent changes (HO playing hard ball), just wanted to make sure you didn't put your application fee at risk.

In meantime, chin up & put best foot forward.
Good luck.

Sas Sam wrote:
Bad news. I've just talked to the Nationality Checking Service... and you was right (unfortunately). From now on I can apply for citizenship only if I've held my PR status at least 12 months... so I can apply only in next year Nov. It's a massive sucks!

You CAN apply now! It's the status not the card you need to have held for 12 months. You get the status automatically after 5 years. Go ahead and apply!

Fififi wrote:

Sas Sam wrote:
Bad news. I've just talked to the Nationality Checking Service... and you was right (unfortunately). From now on I can apply for citizenship only if I've held my PR status at least 12 months... so I can apply only in next year Nov. It's a massive sucks!

You CAN apply now! It's the status not the card you need to have held for 12 months. You get the status automatically after 5 years. Go ahead and apply!

read page 10 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... r_2015.pdf

Hi Sam Sam,
Page 10 doesn't say you have to wait for 12 months, have you read the example on the same page?
They try to explain that if you live in the UK for example for 10 years lets say from 2005 and you decide to apply for British citizenship you need to give them 5 years for resident permit from 2010 to 2014 and leave 2015 so you can apply straight away to British citizenship after receiving permanent resident status.
If you give them years 2015-2011 you have to wait 12 months have 6 years and then you can send them application for British citizenship.
This is what they explain on page 10.
Anyway thanks for describing your case. It helped me as I have similar problem with WRS and thanks to your post I'm not afraid to apply for permanent residence status. I've started filling my application. Can I ask you if you sent them the whole application or only pages which were for you to fill in?
Thanks

Sam Sam,

Sorry for not being precise, I mean that page 10 doesn't say you have to wait for 12 months in your case (please see example on the same page).

Thanks

Fififi wrote:

Sas Sam wrote:
Bad news. I've just talked to the Nationality Checking Service... and you was right (unfortunately). From now on I can apply for citizenship only if I've held my PR status at least 12 months... so I can apply only in next year Nov. It's a massive sucks!

You CAN apply now! It's the status not the card you need to have held for 12 months. You get the status automatically after 5 years. Go ahead and apply!

When I called the Council NCS to book an appointment on very next day after I get the PR card, and she asked me many questions. One of it was the PR card. She asked: "Do you have PR card?" I said "Yes, I have. I've just received yesterday". Then she said "ohh.. sorry, but because of the new rules you have to hold the PR status for 12 months at leaset before you can apply for citizenship". So I couldn't complete the booking process for NCS appointment.

Anusia wrote:Hi Sam Sam,
Page 10 doesn't say you have to wait for 12 months, have you read the example on the same page?
They try to explain that if you live in the UK for example for 10 years lets say from 2005 and you decide to apply for British citizenship you need to give them 5 years for resident permit from 2010 to 2014 and leave 2015 so you can apply straight away to British citizenship after receiving permanent resident status.
If you give them years 2015-2011 you have to wait 12 months have 6 years and then you can send them application for British citizenship.
This is what they explain on page 10.
Anyway thanks for describing your case. It helped me as I have similar problem with WRS and thanks to your post I'm not afraid to apply for permanent residence status. I've started filling my application. Can I ask you if you sent them the whole application or only pages which were for you to fill in?
Thanks

Please check my previous answer to @Fififi. Also one of my friend's sister tried to apply last week via NCS but she was rejected as well because of the PR card. She doesn't have PR card at all but she is living here since 2009 and married to a UK citizen.

Also you have to provide the issue date of your PR card on the AN Form and doesn't matter how many years you can prove with papers I guess. I could give them 7 years btw... The Booklet says:

"[...]you should normally have held permanent resident status for 12 months before applying for naturalisation."

I see @Fififi's point in terms of difference between "status" and "the card" definition, but in this case why do we have to provide the issue date of the card in the AN Form then?!

The answer to your question about the PR application: I've sent only the relevant pages of the form. Page #2:

Only complete the sections of the form that are relevant to you. If a section does not apply to you, leave it blank.

Sorry for late answer... I didn't get any notification from the forum about your new posts.

Sas Sam wrote:Also you have to provide the issue date of your PR card on the AN Form and doesn't matter how many years you can prove with papers I guess. I could give them 7 years btw... The Booklet says:

"[...]you should normally have held permanent resident status for 12 months before applying for naturalisation."

I see @Fififi's point in terms of difference between "status" and "the card" definition, but in this case why do we have to provide the issue date of the card in the AN Form then?!

This nonsensical situation, & yet another example of the lack of joined-up thinking by HO, may have to wait for someone with the resources & stamina to mount a legal challenge.

On the face of it making a purely confirmatory document (confirmation of PR card) a mandatory prerequisite for citizenship is just plain wrong and violates legal principles at many levels.

As it stands, the well-understood & established EU standard of 5 years continuously exercising treaty rights to automatically acquire PR has, in UK, morphed into a 'stealth requirement' to have 6 years time-served.

It's as if the Home Office has suddenly erected a toll booth & razor fencing across the public highway.

Clearly (judging by members' experiences) any internal guidance to caseworkers and training/guidance provided to NCS is incomplete & contradictory;
just as the public guidance available on Gov UK website (in naturalisation-related pages & documents) is contradictory and confusing.

In the meantime, perhaps someone with a gung-ho & proactive type of MP (preferably with an interest in immigration & citizenship matters) may be able to persuade them to take up the cause.
See http://www.ukpolitical.info/Finder.htm

noajthan wrote:This nonsensical situation, & yet another example of the lack of joined-up thinking by HO, may have to wait for someone with the resources & stamina to mount a legal challenge.

On the face of it making a purely confirmatory document (confirmation of PR card) a mandatory prerequisite for citizenship is just plain wrong and violates legal principles at many levels.

As it stands, the well-understood & established EU standard of 5 years continuously exercising treaty rights to automatically acquire PR has, in UK, morphed into a 'stealth requirement' to have 6 years time-served.

It's as if the Home Office has suddenly erected a toll booth & razor fencing across the public highway.

Clearly (judging by members' experiences) any internal guidance to caseworkers and training/guidance provided to NCS is incomplete & contradictory;
just as the public guidance available on Gov UK website (in naturalisation-related pages & documents) is contradictory and confusing.

In the meantime, perhaps someone with a gung-ho & proactive type of MP (preferably with an interest in immigration & citizenship matters) may be able to persuade them to take up the cause.
See http://www.ukpolitical.info/Finder.htm

Thank you for your opinion and suggestions. It's really valuable!

Unfortunately I don't feel the power in myself to find an MP and fight with him against the law, but on Monday I've sent an email to the HO with my questions. I haven't received an answer yet. I'll post the news here if I get any.

Hi there,

As this situation applies closely to my own, I just wanted to say reading the Booklet AN page 10, it clearly states that EEA citizens and family members of EEA citizens automatically receive perm residence STATUS after 5 years of living in UK.

It does say now that you need to apply for the EEA4 (PR document) before you can apply for citizenship HOWEVER it clearly states that you need to hold permanent residency STATUS for 12 months before applying (which they had just stated is granted automatically after living in UK for 5 years and exercising treaty rights).

So yes you do need to wait 6 years to apply for citizenship but believe that has always been the case for EEA route (and now yes you do need to wait until you have your EEA4, which is a delay if you didn't apply yet) BUT you do not need to additionally wait another year after receiving your EEA4 (as long as the evidence you supply for your EEA4 proves you've had at least 5 years of living in the UK in period of time that ends 1 year before you want to apply for citizenship). As Anusia explains as well regarding the dated documents to supply when you apply for your EEA4, it's not super easy to understand and it's a bit tricky to have that requirement to prove minus 1 year but that's definitely it.

The NCS shouldn't be telling you, you need to wait 12 months after receiving your EEA4, rather that your evidence (which you'll need to submit along with your citizenship application as well) ends 1 year ago. I know they will argue this but I suggest you insist and bring along the Home Office booklet AN, it's pretty hard to argue with their own legislation and guidance!

Dear Sam Sam
Thank you very much for your reply.
I have similar situation with late WRS registration. Your case helped me to answer my questions. I was also wondering if late registration can be treated as breaking immigration rules but now after you received your PR I am not scared to send my application, too.
I’d like to ask you or anyone who knows the answer 2 questions:
1)
In section 5 “Current or previous EEA residence documentation” question 5.5 with table. Is this question about WRS? I’m not sure what they mean saying EEA residence documentation? Does registration certificate listed in the table mean WRS Certificate? Did you fill it in with your WRS details? Does anyone can advise?
2) How did you explain your late WRS registration?

Cbrou04 - yes, I agree with you, there is clear example in the booklet AN explaining our problem but to be honest it is too risky to send application for naturalisation if there is confusing information from National Checking Services.



Many thanks for help. Hopefully I’m sending my application tomorrow.

Anusia wrote:...

I’d like to ask you or anyone who knows the answer 2 questions:

1) In section 5 “Current or previous EEA residence documentation” question 5.5 with table. Is this question about WRS? I’m not sure what they mean saying EEA residence documentation? Does registration certificate listed in the table mean WRS Certificate? Did you fill it in with your WRS details? Does anyone can advise?

2) How did you explain your late WRS registration?

...

Many thanks for help. Hopefully I’m sending my application tomorrow.

1) No it's not about WRS.
It's about residence-related documentation.

See Q5.5 which asks about which of any such documents you hold (or may have had in the past).

Noajthan,

Thank you very much for your answer.

Sas Sam wrote:Thank you for your opinion and suggestions. It's really valuable!

Unfortunately I don't feel the power in myself to find an MP and fight with him against the law, but on Monday I've sent an email to the HO with my questions. I haven't received an answer yet. I'll post the news here if I get any.

Sas Sam, you may like to check this vital information if you've not seen it yet:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... l#p1289482

Anusia wrote:1) In section 5 “Current or previous EEA residence documentation” question 5.5 with table. Is this question about WRS? I’m not sure what they mean saying EEA residence documentation? Does registration certificate listed in the table mean WRS Certificate? Did you fill it in with your WRS details? Does anyone can advise?

Noajthan already answered this question as I can see.

Anusia wrote:2) How did you explain your late WRS registration?

I've written and attached a cover letter with detailed explanation of my situation.

noajthan wrote:

Sas Sam wrote:Thank you for your opinion and suggestions. It's really valuable!

Unfortunately I don't feel the power in myself to find an MP and fight with him against the law, but on Monday I've sent an email to the HO with my questions. I haven't received an answer yet. I'll post the news here if I get any.

Sas Sam, you may like to check this vital information if you've not seen it yet:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... l#p1289482

Noajthan! Holy moly!:D I've check the topic and I've read all ... and I was shocked (in a good way)!!! It seems we have an official answer from HO and all the barriers gone, isn't it? I'll call the NCS and try to book a new appointment! Hopefully they know too about it. Thank you for the information!

Funny facts: the AN Form has been updated just few days ago as well as the Guide in last December. And I guess the homepage relevant subpages changed too. Since last November they updated the AN Form 4 times...

BTW I don't know why but for some reason this forum doesn't send email alert when a topic get new post since my last visit. This is why my answers delayed. Sorry about that!

Sas Sam wrote:Noajthan! Holy moly!:D I've check the topic and I've read all ... and I was shocked (in a good way)!!! It seems we have an official answer from HO and all the barriers gone, isn't it? I'll call the NCS and try to book a new appointment! Hopefully they know too about it. Thank you for the information!

Funny facts: the AN Form has been updated just few days ago as well as the Guide in last December. And I guess the homepage relevant subpages changed too. Since last November they updated the AN Form 4 times...

BTW I don't know why but for some reason this forum doesn't send email alert when a topic get new post since my last visit. This is why my answers delayed. Sorry about that!

Yes, don't take no for an answer this time.

And yes, it sounds like left-hand of HO is coordinating with the righthand a little bit better.

If you Subscribe to the topic (click button at top of page) you should get a mail for any updates to the thread.

noajthan wrote: If you Subscribe to the topic (click button at top of page) you should get a mail for any updates to the thread.

I'm already subscriber of this topic as well as all others where I posted any answer in the past. But it doesn't help. It seems to me after a while if you are not coming back and sign in you won't get email alert either.

cbrou04 wrote:Hi there,

As this situation applies closely to my own, I just wanted to say reading the Booklet AN page 10, it clearly states that EEA citizens and family members of EEA citizens automatically receive perm residence STATUS after 5 years of living in UK.

It does say now that you need to apply for the EEA4 (PR document) before you can apply for citizenship HOWEVER it clearly states that you need to hold permanent residency STATUS for 12 months before applying (which they had just stated is granted automatically after living in UK for 5 years and exercising treaty rights).

So yes you do need to wait 6 years to apply for citizenship but believe that has always been the case for EEA route (and now yes you do need to wait until you have your EEA4, which is a delay if you didn't apply yet) BUT you do not need to additionally wait another year after receiving your EEA4 (as long as the evidence you supply for your EEA4 proves you've had at least 5 years of living in the UK in period of time that ends 1 year before you want to apply for citizenship). As Anusia explains as well regarding the dated documents to supply when you apply for your EEA4, it's not super easy to understand and it's a bit tricky to have that requirement to prove minus 1 year but that's definitely it.

The NCS shouldn't be telling you, you need to wait 12 months after receiving your EEA4, rather that your evidence (which you'll need to submit along with your citizenship application as well) ends 1 year ago. I know they will argue this but I suggest you insist and bring along the Home Office booklet AN, it's pretty hard to argue with their own legislation and guidance!

I agree with you but even if you're right, if the booklet says something which is not clear and obvious and the NCS says the opposite I'm not sure I would send my application because I don't want to risk my money. But finally it seems the HO made it clear and now we can reference to that because it's official.