Non EEA FM PR refused - anyone else had succesful appeal?

Hi all,

Looking for folks who have been through the appeal process of a refusal of Permanent Residence for your Non-EEA family members.

I am naturalised Irish, moved to UK in 2007 with husband and my 2 children of prev marriage. (then 14 and 17)

We had non-eea family member permits for the, and they expired in Oct 2014, took us a bit to get the perm residence application together and submitted in March 2015, (kids now 20 and 24).
Sept 2015 we got letters stating PR refused, as they didn't prove that I was with them when they arrived in the Uk (despite us having done this prev with non eea family member permit and having included those letters in the application) and stating that they did not prove that I was here exercising my treaty rights (full work history for past 5 years included with application, as well as either bank statements and wage slips for each year).
We've gone to an immigration lawyer to appeal, (submitted Sept 2015) paid the 140£ for each of the kids, and now have finally gotten our tribunal date, July 2016.

Has anyone else had similar case? Have you been through the appeal and what was the outcome.
Both myself, my husband have worked consistently for the 8 years we have been here, and both the children are employed.
We are Canadian and the kids hold Canadian passports. kind of panicing as we have no life in Canada to send the kids back to and if they are refused, we will need to sell up and go with them, which we'd really rather not do! any advice/reassurance much appreciated!

Not done an appeal but got some questions:

Did you arrive all together in UK?
Have you all got passport stamps to prove it?
Anything else? ticket stubs?
Accommodation details for first few days in UK?

Try requesting a SAR (per person) from UKVI - see if they tracked your arrival.

What were you doing until 2012/3 ?
- you may have acquired PR by then.

Hi there,

I arrived first at the begining of May 2007 and stayed with friends, within the rest of the month the family came over and we were all settled in our own apt by the end of the month, the kids were enrolled in school, we started paying council tax etc.. all this documentation had to be provided when we applied for the kids EEA family member permits, passports dates, proof of enrolment in school, etc
both my husband and I have worked full time consistently from arrival to present, and continue to.
Once the kids finished school, they have also worked full time.

All holidays, comings and goings from the uk (never for any more than a couple weeks) were listed in our application.
As were all employers and dates of employment. for all of us.

my interpretation of the application was that we only had to provide evidence for the last five years, as anything previous was covered in the application that resulted in the kids being granted their EEA family member permits.

We were really shocked when the application was refused, even our lawyer couldn't figure out what was missing from our application.

thanks for "listening" !

You probably acquired PR earlier.
Maybe your evidence for last 5 or so years wasn't up to scratch.

For example, if 'children' were over 21 in that time how did you demonstrate their dependency on parent sponsor?

mistakenly we didn't get their family permits until 2009, we didn't even realize we needed them until we came back from a holiday together and were advised on re-entry.

I had checked with UKBA about re-applying for the famiy permit once the first ones had expired, and was told that technically they didn't require them !?!, which didn't make sense, but then they advised to just apply for PR instead of a new eea fm permit.

I didn't interpret that , after 5 years here, a criteria was that they have to be dependant on me, as they both came of age during the 5 year qualifying period for PR.

Is that the case?

thanks!

Missmonkey wrote:mistakenly we didn't get their family permits until 2009, we didn't even realize we needed them until we came back from a holiday together and were advised on re-entry.

I had checked with UKBA about re-applying for the famiy permit once the first ones had expired, and was told that technically they didn't require them !?!, which didn't make sense, but then they advised to just apply for PR instead of a new eea fm permit.

I didn't interpret that , after 5 years here, a criteria was that they have to be dependant on me, as they both came of age during the 5 year qualifying period for PR.

Is that the case?

thanks!

Yes, children over 21 can be sponsored by EEA national parent but emotional/financial dependency has to be shown.

Their case is strengthened if they continued to be 'children in education'.

Under 21 you only have to prove relationship, not 'dependency'.

Omitting details like that can fail an application.

I'm on cellphone so tricky to post links.
Google 'qualified person pdf' also 'direct family member pdf' to find relevant HO guidance on requirements for family.
That should help you get up to speed.

Hi there

I am Irish citizen living in the UK since 2007, my (adult) children had been refused ILR, letter was vague but appeared I was missing proof of exercising my treaty rights, so we have a tribunal date in early july, in the mean time I've submitted a full proof of work for my 8 years here along with bank statements and pay stubs, so pending review of this.
We have a family event we need to attend in June in the states.
My lawyer previously said that with the new documents we should be fine, but now says we shouldn't travel.

the appeal date is less than a week and a half after we are due to come back from the states., has anyone had any experience, in a smiliar situation?

terrified now that the kids will be hauled off to a detention centre upon coming home to uk.
is it likely, that they would just have their status changed to visitor visa pending appeal decison ?

Missmonkey wrote:Hi there

I am Irish citizen living in the UK since 2007, my (adult) children had been refused ILR, letter was vague but appeared I was missing proof of exercising my treaty rights, so we have a tribunal date in early july, in the mean time I've submitted a full proof of work for my 8 years here along with bank statements and pay stubs, so pending review of this.
We have a family event we need to attend in June in the states.
My lawyer previously said that with the new documents we should be fine, but now says we shouldn't travel.

the appeal date is less than a week and a half after we are due to come back from the states., has anyone had any experience, in a smiliar situation?

terrified now that the kids will be hauled off to a detention centre upon coming home to uk.
is it likely, that they would just have their status changed to visitor visa pending appeal decison ?

What nationality are your dependents?
What is dependents' visa status at the moment?
What proof of right to reside in UK do they hold?

Did you really apply for 'ILR' for them or was it for confirmation of PR for your dependents?
If they are aged over 21 and you are their EEA sponsor, did you demonstrate their (financial) dependency on you?

What proof of exercising treaty rights did you submit (originally)?

If it's any comfort, I'd suppose there is more chance of dependents being denied entry to UK (from US) rather than being detained in UK if they have no right of entry.

You can get into the head of the IO who is likely to greet you at the border via this Ops Manual, here:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ndents.pdf
- see section 5.5+

hi

follow me as i have already won my case in FTT, now Home office ask for permission to go to UT. lets see what will happen i will update my detail here.

regards
akz

Not sure why lawyer said they can't travel. Don't they have extant Residence Card? Are they visa national? In the case of the child over 21, is he/she still dependent in you?

Obie wrote:Not sure why lawyer said they can't travel. Don't they have extant Residence Card? Are they visa national? In the case of the child over 21, is he/she still dependent in you?

Residence cards expired in 2014. I can only presume they are working in the UK on the basis of positive CoAs. Readmission to the UK will require OP's Irish passport plus evidence of family relationships for the rest of the family. It's unlikely that the elder child still counts as a family member. If this evidence, as supplemented within a day or two, was not accepted and the elder son admitted that he were returning to the UK to resume settlement, then by the Immigration Rules he should be refused entry. Being in work in the UK would be particularly damning. Getting "EEA Regulations" stamps may be useful for the hudband and younger son.

The family are Canadians. If government were joined up as Labour once rashly promised, the elder son at least would be denied boarding on a flight to the UK because being in employment would demonstrate that they are not visitors. My expectation is that they would get to the border, but I fear the elder son would only be admitted if he lied that he was just visiting and the Immigration Officer chose to believe him. It's possible he might be allowed in on temporary admission.

I can't work out how the elder son is likely to be legal in the UK - he reached 21 before the five years were completed and has been working since he left school. I hope I'm overlooking some obscure rule or legal principle.

Richard W wrote:I can't work out how the elder son is likely to be legal in the UK - he reached 21 before the five years were completed and has been working since he left school. I hope I'm overlooking some obscure rule or legal principle.

OK, I can see how he should be covered, and it may explain why the caseworker looked for evidence that he was with the OP when she arrived in the UK. The reguations I will refer to are part of the EEA Regulations 2006.

Before coming to the UK, he was dependent on his mother (and I believe was part of her household, though that may be challenged because they did not arrive in the UK together), and so satisfied 8(2)(a). He joined his mother in the UK, and in the UK he has been initially a dependent and during that initial period clearly became a member of her household if he had ever ceased to be, thus satisfying Condition 8(2)(c), thereby satisfying Condition 8(2). At least, I presume he remained a member of the OP's household.

The key phrase is "dependent upon the EEA national or is a member of his household" and similar in the second clause. The published guidance overlooks the 'is' I've highlighted, falsely implying that dependence is required.

He acquired a residence card (albeit as a family member), so when he became an extended family member at the age of 21, he automatically qualified under Section 7(3) for being treated the same as a family member. I believe that he therefore acquired permanent residence with the rest of the family. However, I believe his right to be treated as a family member expired with his residence card in 2014.

A permanent resident does not appear to have a right to be admitted to the UK - it seems that the right depends on possession of a residence card. (There might be case law against this argument.)

Just a word of friendly advise. It may assist if you do some background reading before expressing views which are at variance with the law.

Obie wrote:It may assist if you do some background reading before expressing views which are at variance with the law.

What do you suggest, and what's at variance? I could find almost nothing on what happens to child family members when they reach 21.

I've looked again, and done better, but the best I've found is Lebon, which suggests to me that in the absence of dependency, a child's being a direct family member ceases at 21. The complication is that this case deals with a French family with the child born and living in Belgium.

Now, Reyes may offer an interesting wrinkle on dependency, but I wouldn't care to argue it to an Immigration Officer at Heathrow, which is the original question. As an extended family member is allowed to take employment, can one argue that the dependency while employed may just be that the right to work depends on the sponsor being lawfully resident in the UK? A flaw in the usability of the argument is that as the elder son would now be a permanent resident by this argument, he is no longer a direct family member by this argument.

Are there examples of permanent residents who have never held permanent residence cards or equivalent being admitted to the UK because they're permanent residents?

Ironically, if the sons were workshy lay-abouts sponging off their parents, and it could be proven, they would have a clear right to enter the UK on return with their mother!

Suffice to say a person who is over 21 will continue to qualify as a family member if they are able to demonstrate a relationship of dependency.

Missmonkey wrote:
I am naturalised Irish, moved to UK in 2007 with husband and my 2 children of prev marriage. (then 14 and 17)

We had non-eea family member permits for the, and they expired in Oct 2014, took us a bit to get the perm residence application together and submitted in March 2015, (kids now 20 and 24).

both the children are employed.

From 2007 to 2016 (the date of your opening post) is 8 or 9 years since you moved to the UK.

That will make your 14 year old now age 22 or 23. Your then 17 year old would be age 25 or 26 now.

What are the correct ages of your adult children? Or is your entry date of 2007 incorrect?

Hi all,
application for my 2 children (20 and 24 at time of application march 2015), IDLR refused stating not full evidence received that I was in UK exercising treaty rights, we appealed and granted tribunal date of July 6.
went to an immigration lawyer, she asked me get proof of working, submitted wage slips and bank statements showing monthly wages for the past 8 years (never been un-employed or on benefits), she's had them for 3 weeks now and still not submitted them, but said she is doing so on Thursday.
Based on a conversation with her, she said yeah, get this and all should be fine, we'll request a review and this covers all missing info. (arguing evidentuary flexibilty and that if there was info missing , it should have been requested prior to refusal).
So I , perhaps foolishly, booked myself and the kids to go to a family event in the states in June and now our lawyer is saying we should not travel as kids could be refused entry., but she also says that 100% they meet all the requirements of IDLR...
Finding zero guidance on the ukba website, does anyone have any experience, or know if there is a letter or anything we can request from UKBA to help with re-entry?

So if she submits this week, what are the chances we'll have an answer prior to our departure on the 11th June, and as we arrive back on june 26, and our tribunal is on the 6th of july, as we are 2 weeks away would this help/hinder
any experience, advice gratefully appreciated!

Kindly keep your posts in your topic.
Multiple posts

You have been advised here on risks of travel.
Any travel at this time would appear to be a distraction when there are bigger fish to fry.

You can dig into what UKBF will probably do if/when you present at border:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ndents.pdf

btw it's a little unclear how old 'kids' actually are - hence recent member's questions above.

Your best bet is still to shoot for earliest possible qualifying period for confirmation of PR (possibly 2012);
ie when 1 or more family dependents were aged under 21.
This is to minimise the need to overcome the hurdle of dependency that your now-working, adult dependents are now up against.

noajthan wrote:This is to minimise the need to overcome the hurdle of dependency that your now-working, adult dependents are now up against.

Doesn't being in the same household also work?