Archive » United Kingdom » HSMP and continuous stay
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| ????? Junior Member Member # 7518 | Posted January 26, 2004 08:48 PM I am working for a global consultancy under the HSMP status. The job requires frequent travelling outside the UK to client’s sites, where I normally have to stay for 1-1.5 months each time. This makes me away from the UK for the total period of up to six-seven months each year. At the same time, I AM employed by the UK-based company and DO pay all local taxes. However, I am very concerned that current HSMP guidance states the following: “The main criteria for settlement will be that you have spent a continuous period of four years in the UK (except for trips abroad of three months or less, totalling LESS THAN SIX MONTHS IN THE FOUR YEAR PERIOD) in a category leading to settlement and that you continue to be economically active in the UK as a highly skilled migrant.” Please, advise if my trips can have an adverse effect when applying for ILR and which documentation should be collected to support their business-related nature? |
| RBloke Member Member # 7214 | Posted January 26, 2004 09:59 PM Well, the guidance is pretty clear - you will work abroad for 6-7 months a year on your peril. HSMP or not you still have to fill in landing cards and Home Office will know dates of your trips inside country. Sorry but it appears to me that this behaviour is not inline with spirit of HSMP program. |
| ????? Junior Member Member # 7518 | Posted January 26, 2004 11:26 PM RBloke, thanks for your reply – I have no intention whatsoever to conceal any of my trips. Contrarily, I was thinking of documenting them somehow to show their relevance to a UK-based business... Otherwise, the spirit of HSMP simply does not fit today’s globalising world – in my company, every person spends 80% of time abroad, whilst being employed by the UK office... |
| RBloke Member Member # 7214 | Posted January 26, 2004 11:52 PM > Otherwise, the spirit of HSMP simply does > not fit today’s globalising world – in my > company, every person spends 80% of time > abroad, whilst being employed by the UK > office... haha, is that what you going to tell Home Office in your renewal form? If you intend to spend 80% of time abroad then you simple have zero chance to get HSMP extended as you have not lived in the UK. In essense you are employed outside of UK and just happen to come to UK on short visits - you can't expect employees of a UK firm located in foreign countries to automatically receive UK permanent residency just because they were employed for 4 years, or do you? I am sorry, but if I were you I'd be extremely careful and talk to HSMP team immediately - simple thing is that you might not get your HSMP extended and more importantly you certainly do not qualify for ILR, which I presume you would want to get. |
| Joseph01 Member Member # 7141 | Posted January 27, 2004 01:01 AM ????? I think your line of work is very much in the spirit of HSMP. Like the Work Permit Scheme, they welcome people who work for big consulting firms who are on the road all the time. If your business requires extensive travel overseas, it's not really a factor when you renew your HSMP. Don't worry, their main concern is that you are economically active working for a UK company and paying UK taxes. Time spent overseas is not even a question on the FLR(HSM) renewal application as long as you are working. If you were unemployed and looking for a job but spending a lot of time outside the UK, THAT would be a problem. When you apply for ILR, as long as your individual trips are less than 90 days in duration, they don't have to be reported on the SET(O) form. So it's really a non-issue for ILR as long as your individual trips are less than 90 consecutive days per trip. I think the item quoted in the brochure is misleading. I think the six months refers to the maximum thay would allow on an exceptional case for a single trip. Back to my original point: make sure no single trip reaches 90 days and you won't have to report it in the ILR application form. If you apply for nationality, your extensive travel overseas WILL be an issue. There is some leeway beyond the normal limits (450 days in 5 years and 90 days in the last year) if your profession requires travel, but your travel may be excessive. So, you may have to defer nationality until you travel less, but you still can have ILR. Joseph |
| epiphany121 Member Member # 7178 | Posted January 27, 2004 01:10 AM ???? (Funny screen name that) , I agree fully with Joseph. You don't have much to worry about. RBloke - I think you need to understand his situation properly, instead of just shooting your opinions (which are misleading and outlandish). If you're working for a British company and you're paying taxes here, I don't understand what you're going on about his NOT working in the UK. If he or she is with a consulting firm that requires travel abroad, it doesn't mean that he's not working in the UK. Beats any conceivable logic that I can think of. |
| ????? Junior Member Member # 7518 | Posted January 27, 2004 04:07 PM Thank you Joseph and Epiphany, with your words I can take a deep breath of relief! |
| Dip Member Member # 4428 | Posted January 27, 2004 04:21 PM ????? Good Luck and one more word of comfort from me in addition to Joseph and Epiphany121 I would only stress on the point Joseph has made on the 90 days limit... There are loads of guys in my organisation who spend considerable time overseas. They receive UK salaries, pay UK taxes... .....travelling is a requirement of the UK employer...isnt it? There is a tax rebate you get for spending certain time outside the country .. I hope you are not claiming it. Rgds |
| hsmphopeful Member Member # 7477 | Posted January 27, 2004 05:08 PM The answers to your questions are in the HSMP guide - read it carefully. The question is not whether one is employed in UK/by UK employer. The issue is whether the person is physically in the UK for a certain amount of time during thr 4 years preceding appl for ILR. It doesn't matter if you are required by your company to travel frequently - you have to decide which is more important for you - your job or ILR. By the way, these time requirements are set by Acts and Home Office may may only minor allowances... You can check this all yourself by reading the HSMP guide and the docs on http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk |
| Dip Member Member # 4428 | Posted January 27, 2004 05:20 PM hsmphopeful, I dont agree unless you can explain the logic of being affected just cause one is on business overseas? Loss of revenue and contribuition to Inland revenue is a valid consideration not to give ILR. But if this is not happening and you are an employee based in the UK, why should it matter? After securing your HSMP, do you tell your employer not to send you on overseas business? I mean do you point out the constraint? Are they hung up on ensuring you are jailed in a country? Any experts out there? Regards |
| Thorsten von Thyssen Member Member # 4397 | Posted January 27, 2004 05:53 PM Technically, there are no embarkation controls in the UK. Therefore, there is no record of UK departures. -------------------- ----------------------------------- |
| Joseph01 Member Member # 7141 | Posted January 27, 2004 07:09 PM hsmphopeful If you really read the rules you were referring to, you would see that the physical presence in the UK is not a deciding factor. Note that traveling a lot on business does NOT violate 135A(ii) below.
quote: As I pointed out, only issue that may come up is whether trip length is more than 90 days, requiring a notation on the SET(O). But, as TvT pointed out, it's hard for immigration to really know how long you have been out! hsmphopeful, before you joined this board, Dip was one of the first people to be granted ILR from HSMP. He is talking from first-hand experience. I recall that he was not even asked about his foreign travel when they granted him ILR. Please do not confuse people like ????? by giving discouraging and misleading information! Joseph [ January 27, 2004: Message edited by: Joseph01 ] |
| Cane Junior Member Member # 7458 | Posted January 27, 2004 07:41 PM Could someone please clarify the meaning of the expressions: "leave to enter" or "leave to remain"? I am assuming "leave to" here means 'permission to' or some closely related concept? Is this some anachronism, or legal term, or even vernacular in the Queen's English? Thanks Cane [ January 27, 2004: Message edited by: Cane ] |
| RBloke Member Member # 7214 | Posted January 27, 2004 08:38 PM epiphany121 says: > RBloke - I think you need to understand > his situation properly, instead of just > shooting your opinions (which are > misleading and outlandish). I am afraid I am fully entitled to hold an opinion just like you are entitled to hold your own which may or may not agree with mine, ok? To say that it is okay for a person on HSMP to spend most of time abroad is laughable because in this case it would mean that people employed by UK company abroad will somehow qualify for ILR after 4 years without even being present in the UK. > If he or she is with a consulting firm If you are not mainly present in the UK then you are not working in the UK - if I start paying myself salary through some offshore on Cayman Islands while being present in this country I would still be "working in the UK" not on Cayman Islands despite my salary being paid there. Dip: Employer can't just change his mind and send you overseas for long period of time just like that - this would certainly get discussed BEFORE you accept job and thus you will know exactly what you will be doing, ie living outside of UK. Thorsten von Thyssen: Yes, but they know that you travelled IN often and they can crosscheck against airline database of names who fly OUT - granted this is pretty expensive and not common it is still perfectly doable thing, and certainly can and should be done for any ILR application as it should be a matter of a few SQL queries. > (iv) is lawfully economically active in He is not economically active in the UK because he is outside of country most of time - just because salary goes to his UK bank account does not mean he is economically active on that territory. > (ii) intends to make the United Kingdom He certainly in my view will violate this clause too - how can you consider "making UK home" when you are abroad most of time? > hsmphopeful, before you joined this board, Great, now your "proper" advice is that HO wont find out about trips or wont ask, how good is that? Matter of fact is that this is all traceable and in 4 years immigration laws could be far stricter - war on terrorism and what not. ----- I am not going to argue with you lot - if you think that someone being outside of country most of time somehow qualifies for ILR then good luck to you. |
| Dip Member Member # 4428 | Posted January 27, 2004 09:42 PM Rbloke, Please do not take anything personal on here. We are having an healthy discussion and sharing personal experiences. The spirit of the HSMP visa is not that you get it and remain immobile for genuine offical duties. You are invited to enter and make UK your home contribuiting to the progress of the Economy. If for employment reasons you remain out, this is not considered as break(except if its more than 90 days). Even in this case if you can prove that it was genuine and employment related, you are fine. They however do take a negative stand on people who are on secondment or transfers overseas. But we are not talking of such cases here. Are we? In my organisation, we have loads of guys spending most of the time overseas. But their main home is UK. A home, income, taxes etc everything here. Where is the question of no continuity? And where is the intention not to remain? Even after your ILR if you have stayed more than 2 years overseas, they will still readmit you if you can show that the intention is to remain here. Maybe you have a house here etc. and the reason you are overseas is job related. The stuff people mention like there are no controls when you leave the country are more from a practical comfort point of view for a person worried on his stand and not meant to break any law. Joseph rightly mentions that I wasnt asked any questions on that. However, I had phoned the Homeoffice prior to the visit, as my passport was 4 booklets with many visas and stamps. This should normally arouse suspicion that I am out mostly, but on the phone I was only asked if I was out for more than 90 days and was clearly told that business related short trips less than 90 days are permitted. So my experience says its okay to travel on business. Pick up their phone for clarity. Their response time is pretty good. Regards |
| RBloke Member Member # 7214 | Posted January 27, 2004 10:08 PM > The spirit of the HSMP visa is not that > you get it and remain immobile for genuine > offical duties. You are invited to enter > and make UK your home contribuiting to the > progress of the Economy. The spirit of work permits and HSMP is that you remain in the UK - if you plan to spend most of time being posted to (say) France, then you should get French permit to work as (clearly) it is France where you reside. If you think that just because you pay income tax and NIC in the UK makes it okay you need to think again - these direct taxes are not all the taxes the Govt gets from people who live in this country - they get the rest from VAT, fuel duty and all sort of indirect taxes. This means that in practice a person who pays direct taxes on (say) £50k in the UK but living outside of UK does NOT pay as near as much to HM Treasury as the person who actually resides in the UK and _spends_ money here. It is obvious that long term residency programs like HSMP imply that person should be in the UK. There is nothing personal in this. Anyone who lives most of time outside of UK should not expect to be being okay on long term residency programs such as work permits or HSMP. |
| epiphany121 Member Member # 7178 | Posted January 28, 2004 01:03 AM BLOKEY, You're missing the obvious point here that people ARE and WILL get ILRs even if they're out of the country for Long periods of working outside. Doesn't Matter if YOU THINK that people who spend susbstantial time outside the country shouldn't be eligible for ILR. THEY WILL. Case in point is ME. I was away in the US on work for about 13 months in total out of the 4 years before I applied for ILR. And there have been many more people on this board. Granted if there are people like you sitting at the HO (thank god you and your interpretations are not part of the criteria) then people wouldn't even get HSMP extensions. I don't want to know your rationale behind your notion that HSMP intends that you 'Remain in the country', but it misses the mark by a long mile. UK Govt obviously intends that immigrants contribute to the UK economy, whether by the way of taxes or spending. This promotes controlled migration and is a more acceptable alternative for UK Govt than asylum seekers. So in REALITY the IND would be far more lenient towards these kinds of settlement cases than your imagination allows. Advice for you - Apply to be the head of IND and with your ideas, I can't see them refusing you. [ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: epiphany121 ] [ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: epiphany121 ] [ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: epiphany121 ] |
| Dip Member Member # 4428 | Posted January 28, 2004 08:46 AM "?????" - In all honesty you are fine.. dont worry....there are many out here as Ephipany says ... BTW ... You got a funny id ...????? and I hope your questions are answered. |
| Joseph01 Member Member # 7141 | Posted January 28, 2004 10:49 AM Cane, Yes you are right, "leave to enter" basically means "permission to enter." Joseph |
| RBloke Member Member # 7214 | Posted January 28, 2004 10:59 PM Time will tell who is right |
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