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ILR + Indian citizenship or British Citrizenship

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InUkOnHsmp
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ILR + Indian citizenship or British Citrizenship

Post by InUkOnHsmp » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:40 pm

Hi Forurm,

I will be qualifying for ILR in the UK very soon, and subsequently will be eligible to apply for British citizenship.

Now I am in a huge dilemma about whether I should just continue with my ILR status, or register as a British citizen.

Here are some key facts about my situation:

1) I may have to return to India right after taking citizenship, because of some personal circumstances.
2) I have a child, who I can register as a British citizen as soon as I get ILR.

Now I have been reading various posts on the forum on this, and here is my list of pros and cons:

British citizenship:

Pros:
1) Developed country, benefits and living conditions.
2) Better paid jobs, more exciting career opportunities
3) Access to the EU for education ( for my child), and for travel (for all of us)
4) If I do need to go back to India, that does not affect my ability to come back as and when I want.

Cons:
1) Me and my family will need a visa to visit India, as I am planning to go back for a long time after taking citizenship.
2) Issues arising out of not being a Indian citizen, but living in India. For people with kids,I have heard the major problem is the education cost and opportunity, as the kids have a foreigner status in India. I wonder if this rules out studying in premier colleges like the IITs etc.

ILR + Indian citizenship:


Pros:

1. All my family remains Indian Citizens, so have the same education and other opportunities in India as any Indian citizen.

Cons:

1) Will need to come back to the UK every 2 years, for ILR to remain valid. Not sure how things will work with the home office if I do this a couple of times, might affect my ILR?
2) No recourse to public funds at any point in my stay in the UK, so no benefits of any kind from the state.
3) If we ever go for education in the UK, the costs are way higher for non-EU nationals than for UK citizens.
4) No access to education/travel opportunities in the rest of the EU.

Could I call upon experienced members to guide me about the various aspects of this situation? I am sure I can take the right decision with the forums guidance.

Regards
Challenges make life worth it!

Jambo
Respected Guru
Posts: 8734
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Re: ILR + Indian citizenship or British Citrizenship

Post by Jambo » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:53 pm

Can't comment on ILR/BC dilemma as it is your personal choice but wanted to correct two points.
InUkOnHsmp wrote:ILR Cons:
2) No recourse to public funds at any point in my stay in the UK, so no benefits of any kind from the state.
3) If we ever go for education in the UK, the costs are way higher for non-EU nationals than for UK citizens.
With ILR you do have access to public funds and benefits.
With ILR, you are eligible for home tuition fees in university (if you meet some residency requirements).

addh
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Post by addh » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:32 am

Take BC + OCI

Smallfamily
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Post by Smallfamily » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:51 pm

addh wrote:Take BC + OCI
Perfect solution :wink:

geek1981
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Post by geek1981 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:48 am

I think with OCI, your children will still need to get NRI seats which is too expensive. So not a perfect solution if you are thinking of your kid to be a Doctor. :-)

imranb
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Post by imranb » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:35 am

geek1981 wrote:I think with OCI, your children will still need to get NRI seats which is too expensive. So not a perfect solution if you are thinking of your kid to be a Doctor. :-)
I am not fully convinced about this NRI thing being ‘expensive’. NRI quota is a special quota that can be used by rich NRIs to get their kids into prestigious colleges in India by paying a premium as the exam results of these kids is below the cut-off percentage expected in those colleges. It does not mean that ALL NRIs have to go through this route.......E.g. there is a reservation for backward/scheduled caste.....but that does not mean that a bright student from scheduled caste cannot apply in the general category......If you are an NRI and your child has had a good academic record and qualifies the admission criterion of a good college, why would he not be allowed to apply in the open category? If anyone on this forum knows more about this subject, I would request more discussion on this subject as the above is just my understanding and I shall be happy to be corrected if I am wrong.
At the same time, I also think that if your child has studied in UK most of his life (up to 6th form or 12th class as we call in India), how feasible and fair it would be to make your child go to India for his further education. Wouldn’t the cultural difference and the language barrier make his/her life difficult?

InUkOnHsmp
Senior Member
Posts: 740
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:36 pm

Post by InUkOnHsmp » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:09 pm

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the inputs so far.
With ILR you do have access to public funds and benefits.
With ILR, you are eligible for home tuition fees in university (if you meet some residency requirements).
I was not aware of this at all, thanks for the information Jambo.
Take BC + OCI
Perfect solution
Not sure about that without knowing all aspects of both. In my personal situation, I can see I am going to take citizenship, and then go back to India for at least 10-15 years or so as I have elderly parents to take care of. So I guess it is a personal thing as Jambo suggested.
I think with OCI, your children will still need to get NRI seats which is too expensive. So not a perfect solution if you are thinking of your kid to be a Doctor.
Thats exactly what I am concerned about. Well to be honest more than the fees, I am concerned about the opportunity part of it, I do not want my child to not be able to join IIT or a premier medical institute as he/she is not an Indian citizen. Hence my request for more information, if anyone has any first or second hand information about this, please enlighten me!

@Imranb: Thanks for the input. As mentioned in my case, I would be going back in a couple of years, and most probably my child will get an Indian education from the start anyways, so the cultural difference shoupld hopefully not matter so much. Its interesting what you say about college admissions and all, it would be great to know they are nationality agnostic.

Any other inputs friends?
Challenges make life worth it!

manyaonisland
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Re: ILR + Indian citizenship or British Citrizenship

Post by manyaonisland » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:58 pm

Some more points to ponder -
InUkOnHsmp wrote: 1. All my family remains Indian Citizens, so have the same education and other opportunities in India as any Indian citizen.
Not if you register your child as BC after having ILR. He/she will be British.

Also Indian citizens are also called NRI if there normal country of residence is not India. For that matter when you are taking ILR and staying here without taking BC you are still NRI for India.
InUkOnHsmp wrote: 1) Will need to come back to the UK every 2 years, for ILR to remain valid. Not sure how things will work with the home office if I do this a couple of times, might affect my ILR?
Not necessarily, if the border control officer thinks that your 'normal' country of residence is NOT UK then even though you are coming here after two years for two weeks he can decline you the entry on ILR and may ask you to apply for Visa. Visiting once in two years in guidance and not rule. the Rule is to maintain your ILR status your normal country of residence should be UK.
[/quote]
Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is.

InUkOnHsmp
Senior Member
Posts: 740
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:36 pm

Hey

Post by InUkOnHsmp » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:17 pm

Hi manyaonisland,
Not if you register your child as BC after having ILR. He/she will be British.
Yeah I meant if none of us become BCs, and all remain on ILR.
Also Indian citizens are also called NRI if there normal country of residence is not India. For that matter when you are taking ILR and staying here without taking BC you are still NRI for India.
Sure, I do understand that. I wonder how things change for us back in India when we become BCs here.
Not necessarily, if the border control officer thinks that your 'normal' country of residence is NOT UK then even though you are coming here after two years for two weeks he can decline you the entry on ILR and may ask you to apply for Visa. Visiting once in two years in guidance and not rule. the Rule is to maintain your ILR status your normal country of residence should be UK.
Thats a very good point you make, thanks for the pointer.

Regards
Challenges make life worth it!

osteophytes
Member
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:32 pm

Re: ILR + Indian citizenship or British Citrizenship

Post by osteophytes » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:14 am

InUkOnHsmp wrote:Hi Forurm,

I will be qualifying for ILR in the UK very soon, and subsequently will be eligible to apply for British citizenship.

Now I am in a huge dilemma about whether I should just continue with my ILR status, or register as a British citizen.

Here are some key facts about my situation:

1) I may have to return to India right after taking citizenship, because of some personal circumstances.
2) I have a child, who I can register as a British citizen as soon as I get ILR.

Now I have been reading various posts on the forum on this, and here is my list of pros and cons:

British citizenship:

Pros:
1) Developed country, benefits and living conditions.
2) Better paid jobs, more exciting career opportunities
3) Access to the EU for education ( for my child), and for travel (for all of us)
4) If I do need to go back to India, that does not affect my ability to come back as and when I want.

Cons:
1) Me and my family will need a visa to visit India, as I am planning to go back for a long time after taking citizenship.
2) Issues arising out of not being a Indian citizen, but living in India. For people with kids,I have heard the major problem is the education cost and opportunity, as the kids have a foreigner status in India. I wonder if this rules out studying in premier colleges like the IITs etc.

ILR + Indian citizenship:


Pros:

1. All my family remains Indian Citizens, so have the same education and other opportunities in India as any Indian citizen.

Cons:

1) Will need to come back to the UK every 2 years, for ILR to remain valid. Not sure how things will work with the home office if I do this a couple of times, might affect my ILR?
2) No recourse to public funds at any point in my stay in the UK, so no benefits of any kind from the state.
3) If we ever go for education in the UK, the costs are way higher for non-EU nationals than for UK citizens.
4) No access to education/travel opportunities in the rest of the EU.

Could I call upon experienced members to guide me about the various aspects of this situation? I am sure I can take the right decision with the forums guidance.

Regards
Take BC and apply for OCI. If your kids need Indian citizenship for higher studies they can apply for it then, provided they have OCI for 5 years and have been living in India for 12 months prior to the application. I dont think you can keep your ILR for ever just by coming here once in a while.

imranb
Member
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:04 pm

Re: ILR + Indian citizenship or British Citrizenship

Post by imranb » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:01 am

osteophytes wrote:
InUkOnHsmp wrote:Hi Forurm,

I will be qualifying for ILR in the UK very soon, and subsequently will be eligible to apply for British citizenship.

Now I am in a huge dilemma about whether I should just continue with my ILR status, or register as a British citizen.

Here are some key facts about my situation:

1) I may have to return to India right after taking citizenship, because of some personal circumstances.
2) I have a child, who I can register as a British citizen as soon as I get ILR.

Now I have been reading various posts on the forum on this, and here is my list of pros and cons:

British citizenship:

Pros:
1) Developed country, benefits and living conditions.
2) Better paid jobs, more exciting career opportunities
3) Access to the EU for education ( for my child), and for travel (for all of us)
4) If I do need to go back to India, that does not affect my ability to come back as and when I want.

Cons:
1) Me and my family will need a visa to visit India, as I am planning to go back for a long time after taking citizenship.
2) Issues arising out of not being a Indian citizen, but living in India. For people with kids,I have heard the major problem is the education cost and opportunity, as the kids have a foreigner status in India. I wonder if this rules out studying in premier colleges like the IITs etc.

ILR + Indian citizenship:


Pros:

1. All my family remains Indian Citizens, so have the same education and other opportunities in India as any Indian citizen.

Cons:

1) Will need to come back to the UK every 2 years, for ILR to remain valid. Not sure how things will work with the home office if I do this a couple of times, might affect my ILR?
2) No recourse to public funds at any point in my stay in the UK, so no benefits of any kind from the state.
3) If we ever go for education in the UK, the costs are way higher for non-EU nationals than for UK citizens.
4) No access to education/travel opportunities in the rest of the EU.

Could I call upon experienced members to guide me about the various aspects of this situation? I am sure I can take the right decision with the forums guidance.

Regards
Take BC and apply for OCI. If your kids need Indian citizenship for higher studies they can apply for it then, provided they have OCI for 5 years and have been living in India for 12 months prior to the application. I dont think you can keep your ILR for ever just by coming here once in a while.
Incorrect. Children under 18 can't renounce their British Citizenship until they are 18. What you mention (if you hold OCI for 5 years and have lived in India for 12 months makes you eligible for Indian citizenship) is valid for adults. Though the kids will become eligible for Indian citizenship, but by virtue of not being able to renounce their British Citizenhip until they are 18, the option of taking up Indian citizenship gets ruled out (until they turn 18 ) Please see http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... tionality/

InUkOnHsmp
Senior Member
Posts: 740
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:36 pm

Thanks

Post by InUkOnHsmp » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:25 am

Thanks for the inputs osteophytes and Imranb.

So essentially, once they take BC, the only way they can regain their Indian citizenship is:

1) They have to be more than 18 years of age
2) They should have renounced their British Citizenship
3) They should have help OCI for 5 years, and
4) They should have lived in India for the previous 12 months.

I hope I am getting all these right.
Challenges make life worth it!

pennylessinindia
Senior Member
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:39 pm

Post by pennylessinindia » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:41 am

I believe the concern re NRI fees for colleges is not too valid. with more and more mixed marriages children are resident in India with many different passports and pay local fees in schools and colleges .
You could try hanging on to see if India ever gets its act together for Dual citizensship , or may be not as no political will to allow the common man the right that so many politicians have !
You really can not top up your ILR by a quick visit to the UK FOR A HOLIDAY,. Leave to remain is as it says remain !
Not an easy choice but if you feel you will not live in the UK long term then may be remain Indian.
Your child may of course have a different view and wish later on they had british citizenship !!
pennyless

imranb
Member
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:04 pm

Post by imranb » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:50 am

pennylessinindia wrote:I believe the concern re NRI fees for colleges is not too valid. with more and more mixed marriages children are resident in India with many different passports and pay local fees in schools and colleges .
You could try hanging on to see if India ever gets its act together for Dual citizensship , or may be not as no political will to allow the common man the right that so many politicians have !
You really can not top up your ILR by a quick visit to the UK FOR A HOLIDAY,. Leave to remain is as it says remain !
Not an easy choice but if you feel you will not live in the UK long term then may be remain Indian.
Your child may of course have a different view and wish later on they had british citizenship !!
Like your clarity of views and thought!

sidshekhar
Newbie
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Change in rule

Post by sidshekhar » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:56 am

In long term government of India may allow Dual citizenship. Considering that its better to get BC now and give up OCI when government permits dual citizenship.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... itizenship

imranb
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Re: Change in rule

Post by imranb » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:08 pm

sidshekhar wrote:In long term government of India may allow Dual citizenship. Considering that its better to get BC now and give up OCI when government permits dual citizenship.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... itizenship
Interesting article......efforts of Amit Kapadia from HSMP forum to reach out to the political spectrum across India to discuss this issue is commendable. But the article is more than a year old.....There does not seem to be any progress on this.....the political class in India is hugely populist.....they will surely not let this proposition go through in the name of security blah blah....I am not too optimistic about this.

osteophytes
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Re: Thanks

Post by osteophytes » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:09 pm

InUkOnHsmp wrote:Thanks for the inputs osteophytes and Imranb.

So essentially, once they take BC, the only way they can regain their Indian citizenship is:

1) They have to be more than 18 years of age
2) They should have renounced their British Citizenship
3) They should have help OCI for 5 years, and
4) They should have lived in India for the previous 12 months.

I hope I am getting all these right.
Imranb is wrong. A carer or a responsible person can renounce the British citizenship on behalf of a child. See section 7 in form RN. If there are valid reasons (I am sure education is a valid one), you can explain in that box.

see link http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... orm_rn.pdf

All of your other assumptions are right (points 2-4)

Greenie
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Re: Thanks

Post by Greenie » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:23 pm

osteophytes wrote:
InUkOnHsmp wrote:Thanks for the inputs osteophytes and Imranb.

So essentially, once they take BC, the only way they can regain their Indian citizenship is:

1) They have to be more than 18 years of age
2) They should have renounced their British Citizenship
3) They should have help OCI for 5 years, and
4) They should have lived in India for the previous 12 months.

I hope I am getting all these right.
Imranb is wrong. A carer or a responsible person can renounce the British citizenship on behalf of a child. See section 7 in form RN. If there are valid reasons (I am sure education is a valid one), you can explain in that box.

see link http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... orm_rn.pdf

All of your other assumptions are right (points 2-4)

Section 7 of the form does not say that at all. A person under 18 cannot renounce their citizenship unless they are married. See

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... tionality/

Section 7 of the RN form is for the countersignatory - it says nothing about a person renouncing citizenship on behalf of a child. It is about a countersignatory signing to confirm whether or not the person giving up the nationality is of sound mind.


See also guide RN

ash321
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Post by ash321 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:26 pm

Hi,
I can understand your worries, it is better first you go for BC and wait until your kids grow up in good English environment and take OCI. When your kids grow up just surrender BC and apply for Indian Passport as you are interested to live in India. If you talk about the premier institute for you kids then bear in mind that in india it is not easy for kids grown here can crack the examination of JEE IIT or PMT.
Thanks

imranb
Member
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:04 pm

Re: Thanks

Post by imranb » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:27 pm

osteophytes wrote:
InUkOnHsmp wrote:Thanks for the inputs osteophytes and Imranb.

So essentially, once they take BC, the only way they can regain their Indian citizenship is:

1) They have to be more than 18 years of age
2) They should have renounced their British Citizenship
3) They should have help OCI for 5 years, and
4) They should have lived in India for the previous 12 months.

I hope I am getting all these right.
Imranb is wrong. A carer or a responsible person can renounce the British citizenship on behalf of a child. See section 7 in form RN. If there are valid reasons (I am sure education is a valid one), you can explain in that box.

see link http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... orm_rn.pdf

All of your other assumptions are right (points 2-4)
Hi Osteophytes

I would be very glad if proved wrong. But I am not convinced with your interpretation of section 7 on form RN. Section 7 refers to a person not of full capacity and being in care of a carer. That does not implicitly imply that it refers to a child’s application. Moreover education cannot be a compassionate ground. Also section 3 in the same form very clearly expects you to confirm if you are 18 or not. If that requirement is not fulfilled, your application is not going anywhere. As I said I would be very happy to be proved wrong, as it solves a major dilemma that both myself and the OP have.

I also think the tone can be a bit more polite and less personal by not starting with a statement saying ‘XYZ is wrong’

Cheers!
Imran

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