Overseas Citizenship of India (OCI)

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:17 pm

I tend to agree with lemess. This has been going on for a long time and at the end of the day, it's just a slight improvement over the previous schemes. I think it's definitely not "dual citizenship" as as other countries have it. But it's better than nothing. The inability to vote, run for public office or own agricultural land is probably not a liability for most people.
Joseph

basis · Post by **basis** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:05 pm

An update -

I collected my PIO card today from London High Commission.
I had applied on 17th Nov
I could have asked them to send it by spl dlv envelope and as in case of lemess it proved a better experience (he could avoid a trip to High commission)

One good thing I observed is date of issue = date of application. So there is hardly any gap between loosing Indian citizenship and getting PIO in my case. I attended ceremony on 10th Nov and got PIO on the 17th Nov. One week guaranteed passport service by UKPA also helps a lot as in reality it takes only couple of days to receive the passports.

The High commission tends to give collection date 3 weeks (21 days) in future but in most cases (straightforward) it can issue it within 10 days.

basis · Post by **basis** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:38 am

MHA has finally updated their website officially. Unfortunately they have changed the link. The old addresses have not been updated but new have been crated. If you use the old links it still gives old information. Many embassies including London High Commission have old links still on their websites.

New links -

Main - http://mha.nic.in/oci/oci-main.htm
Intro - http://mha.nic.in/oci/intro.pdf

There are features like online registration, online status enquiry
http://ociindia.nic.in/ociindia/OnlineO ... ationG.jsp
http://ociindia.nic.in/ociindia/OnlineOCIenquiry.jsp

I will still believe when atleast 1000 people get it and I also get it done

basis · Post by **basis** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:50 am

Important thing is http://mha.nic.in/oci/intro.pdf says

Overseas Citizenship of India (OCI)
OCI Scheme is operational from 02.12.2005

basis · Post by **basis** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:53 am

APPLICATION FEES

For applications to be filed in India, an amount of Rs. 12,650
has to be paid for each applicant by Demand Draft in favour of “Pay
and Accounts Officer (Secretariat), Ministry of Home Affairs”
payable at New Delhi. In case of PIO Card holders, an amount of Rs.
1,150 has to be paid.

In case of applications to be filed outside India, for the
amount of fee to be paid in local currency, please visit the web site of
the respective Indian Mission / Post.

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:49 am

According to the FAQ :
39. What are the advantages of OCI when compared to PIO cardholders ?
(i) OCI is entitled to life long visa free travel to India whereas for PIO
cardholder, it is for 15 years.
(ii) PIO cardholder is required to register with local Police authority for
stay exceeding 180 days in India on any single visit whereas OCI is
exempted from registration with Police authority for any length of
stay in India.

Re: (i) I question how big an issue that really is given that the lifetime of most passports is 10 years after which you'd have to get a new OCI visa sticker in anyway so the concept of a lifelong visa is hardly a convenience - you'll have to apply to have it put into every new passport every 10 years or so anyway unless you want to carry around a huge stack of passports just for your Indian visa.

As for (ii) - Registration is hardly a big deal and most people staying abroad don't go to india on a continous visit of 6 months anyway.

I am struggling to see what new advantages this scheme offers apart from the obvious problem of denying british consular protection.

basis · Post by **basis** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:13 pm

I have to agree with lemess.

I think everyone has to personally weigh the additional benefits and make their choice. I know there are millions of PIO holders who are just waiting for the OCI to become operational. Already 1000s and 1000s of applications are lying with Indian authorities under the last scheme.

If you ask me personally I would go for OCI the momene it becomes operational. I think people who want to move back to India for good for longer periods this is a good scheme. And again if one wants one can get back full Indian citizenship in 5 years with OCI.

The passport issue is also with PIO anyway. In case of PIO when you change the passport you need to get it endorsed on the PIO card and again when the PIO expires need to apply for another. And PIO being a separate cars one needs to carry every time one goes to India alongwith the passport.

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:23 pm

I don't mind carrying a separate PIO card - any proper dual citizenship implies two passports anyway and the PIO card is similar to a passport.

Yes I agree the PIO card needs new endorsement too but that is simply putting in a new passport number in the space already on the card - should be fairly hassle free.

Bottom line for those who already have the PIO card I don't see a very strong case for switching to OCI unless it is for sentimental reasons or they are moving back to India for good and is looking at regaining full Indian citizenship ( and hence giving up their British citizenship). I think the government could have done a lot more.

basis · Post by **basis** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:41 pm

lemess wrote:I think the government could have done a lot more.

Agree with the last comment. But that's what is on offer at least as of now.

As I said everyone has to weigh their options and take a call that suits them.

basis · Post by **basis** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:36 pm

http://dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1000259

This surely means british citizens of Indian origins be careful before going for OIC. PIO is the way to go for British Indians at least as of now. Till OIC status is clarified.

This could lead the British OICs to be stateless.....

John · Post by **John** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:46 pm

This could lead the British OICs to be stateless

This is a complex issue but it must be said that the UK is a signatory to an international convention not to deprive anyone of their one-and-only nationality .... thus rendering them stateless.

So if that is taken into account the fears expressed above are groundless.

ppron747 · Post by **ppron747** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 8:24 pm

John wrote:
This could lead the British OICs to be stateless
This is a complex issue but it must be said that the UK is a signatory to an international convention not to deprive anyone of their one-and-only nationality .... thus rendering them stateless.

So if that is taken into account the fears expressed above are groundless.

Actually, as I understand it, section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981 (as amended by the Nationality, Immigration & Asylum Act 2002) already allows people to be left stateless by being deprived of British nationality, in limited circumstances - eg when the British status was acquired by fraud.

But I don't think people have a lot to fear; the government made it pretty clear, last time around, that the deprivation provisions are intended for use in really exceptional circumstances involving national security, and the like...

basis · Post by **basis** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:08 pm

7.3 For the purposes of British nationality law, IOC is considered to be citizenship of another State. This will be relevant where British law requires the person to be stateless (as, for example, in Schedule 2 to the British Nationality Act 1981 or to have no citizenship or nationality apart from a qualifying form of British nationality (as, for example, in s.4B to the 1981 Act). In these cases, confirmation of non-acquisition of IOC should be sought where the applicant appears to satisfy the criteria in paragraph 7.2 above.

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/in...14/annex_h.html

Home office - INd need to be told that IOC is by no means a dual nationality. How could they treat IOC equivalent to Indian Citizenship.

ppron747 · Post by **ppron747** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:26 pm

basis wrote:Home office - INd need to be told that IOC is by no means a dual nationality. How could they treat IOC equivalent to Indian Citizenship.

I suppose it's a matter of semantics, basis, but I don't think they're treating IOC as being equivalent to Indian citizenship - they are treating it as "another nationality or citizenship".

It seems to me that if the British government is prepared to believe that British Overseas citizenship, and the statuses of British subject and British protected person are perfectly serviceable national statuses (whose common denominator is that they don't give the holders the right to live anywhere at all...) then you might have something of an uphill struggle to persuade the Home Office that IOC isn't a citizenship, particularly when that's what the "C" stands for.

JAJ · Post by **JAJ** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:07 am

ppron747 wrote:
basis wrote:Home office - INd need to be told that IOC is by no means a dual nationality. How could they treat IOC equivalent to Indian Citizenship.
I suppose it's a matter of semantics, basis, but I don't think they're treating IOC as being equivalent to Indian citizenship - they are treating it as "another nationality or citizenship".

It seems to me that if the British government is prepared to believe that British Overseas citizenship, and the statuses of British subject and British protected person are perfectly serviceable national statuses (whose common denominator is that they don't give the holders the right to live anywhere at all...) then you might have something of an uphill struggle to persuade the Home Office that IOC isn't a citizenship, particularly when that's what the "C" stands for.

In the same context, a person born in American Samoa is a US *national* but not a US *citizen*.

US nationals can live and work in the US proper, but don't become US citizens until they naturalise.

basis · Post by **basis** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:06 am

ppron747 wrote: I suppose it's a matter of semantics, basis, but I don't think they're treating IOC as being equivalent to Indian citizenship - they are treating it as "another nationality or citizenship".

It seems to me that if the British government is prepared to believe that British Overseas citizenship, and the statuses of British subject and British protected person are perfectly serviceable national statuses (whose common denominator is that they don't give the holders the right to live anywhere at all...) then you might have something of an uphill struggle to persuade the Home Office that IOC isn't a citizenship, particularly when that's what the "C" stands for.

Paul - if you look at what IOC (or OCI ) includes finally is just a visa sticker in your existing passport. It may be called overseas / underseas or propoer citizenship. But it cannot exist without one's passport from other country and therefore, without your nationlaity / citizenship in other country e.g. UK. It is just a glorified ILR at the best.

basis · Post by **basis** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:07 pm

Although Overseas Citizenship of India is not a full citizenship of India, it is a form of Indian nationality. Article 4 of the Hague Convention on Certain Questions relating to the Conflict of Nationality Laws, 1930 provides that "a State may not afford diplomatic protection to one of its nationals against a state whose nationality such person also possesses". Therefore, international law limits the ability of a country to provide consular protection to its citizens or nationals in their country of second nationality. A person registered as an Overseas citizen of India, who is also a citizen of another country will therefore lose their right to consular protection of their home country when in India.

Many persons of Indian origin eligible to apply for Overseas citizenship of India are considering whether they prefer to obtain Overseas citizenship of India, or a Person of Indian Origin card (PIO card - see below) which offers virtually identical benefits while preserving their right to consular protection in India.

Citizenship clarifications issued by the Authorities

British House of Lords Written Answer on matters related to Overseas Citizenship of India

House of Lords StatementHouse of Lords, 6 July 2005, Column WA 90

Lord Avebury asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether (a) a British subject under the British Nationality Act 1981, other than by connection to the Republic of Ireland, or (b) a British protected person, who acquires by registration Overseas Citizenship of India would automatically lose the status as a British subject or British protected person as a consequence; and [HL729]

Whether an otherwise stateless British overseas citizen, British subject (under the British Nationality Act 1981) or British protected person who acquires overseas citizenship of India would automatically cease to have an entitlement to register as a British citizen under Section 4B of the British Nationality Act 1981. [HL730]

Baroness Scotland of Asthal (Minister of State, Home Office):

If a British subject under the British Nationality Act 1981, other than by connection to the Republic of Ireland, or a British protected person, acquired Indian Overseas citizenship they would automatically lose their status as a British subject or British protected person.
Any British national holding Indian Overseas citizenship would be ineligible for registration as a British citizen {added to clarify} under Section 4B since they could not meet the requirements of Section 4B(2)(b) of the British Nationality Act 1981 to hold no other citizenship or nationality.
http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/NOTE%20VERBALE.pdf
http://www.publications.parliament....xt/51019w02.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_nationality_law

ppron747 · Post by **ppron747** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:25 pm

That's interesting, basis

The thing I can't quite get my head around is where it leaves BSs and BPPs who go for IOC.

If, as you said in your earlier post, IOC-holders just get a sticker in the passport issued by the country of their other nationality, what do BSs and BPPs do if they no longer qualify for the other nationality, as Bns Scotland indicated would be the case? It is a puzzlement....

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:59 pm

I suspect the point is moot as the OCI rules state that it ( OCI) can only be given to "citizens" of countries that allow dual nationality for their citizens.
I don't think BS or BPP qualify under that rule so I suspect anyone applying for OCI under a BS or BPP passport will simply not be eligible for OCI.

From the FAQ on the mha web site :
1. Who is eligible to apply?
A foreign national, who was eligible to become citizen of India on
26.01.1950 or was a citizen of India on or at anytime after 26.01.1950 or belonged
to a territory that became part of India after 15.08.1947 and his/her children and
grand children, provided his/her country of citizenship allows dual citizenship in
some form or other under the local laws, is eligible for registration as Overseas
Citizen of India (OCI).

That suggests to me that BS or BPP cannot be OCIs as they cannot hold dual nationality with their British status.

ppron747 · Post by **ppron747** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:54 pm

lemess wrote:I suspect the point is moot as the OCI rules state that it ( OCI) can only be given to "citizens" of countries that allow dual nationality for their citizens.
I don't think BS or BPP qualify under that rule so I suspect anyone applying for OCI under a BS or BPP passport will simply not be eligible for OCI.

From the FAQ on the mha web site :
1. Who is eligible to apply?
A foreign national, who was eligible to become citizen of India on
26.01.1950 or was a citizen of India on or at anytime after 26.01.1950 or belonged
to a territory that became part of India after 15.08.1947 and his/her children and
grand children, provided his/her country of citizenship allows dual citizenship in
some form or other under the local laws, is eligible for registration as Overseas
Citizen of India (OCI).
That suggests to me that BS or BPP cannot be OCIs as they cannot hold dual nationality with their British status.

I haven't looked at the original OCI legislation, but this could have the lawyers rubbing their hands...

It's true that BSs & BPPs cannot now acquire another nationality, but many already have another nationality, and the UK government is apparently quite content for this to be the case - or at least they haven't done anything to forbid it. So it might be arguable that the UK does allow some fom of dual nationality for all of its various forms of national status. (Although I think it might also be argued that BPP is a status rather than a nationality or citizenship...)

Fun days ahead!

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:19 pm

Paul,
I think the intent of the OCI legislation is to ensure that OCI can only be held in conjunction with a foreign citizenship and not if it could lead to the annulment of one. That is the rationale behind requiring dual nationality and I suspect a challenge would fail on that count.

OCI exists as a sticker in a foreign passport (unlike most 'proper' dual citizenships). A BS or BPP passport with an OCI sticker would be instantly invalid and therefore unusable.

bhavna · Post by **bhavna** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:52 am

Dear Board Members,

I am applying for the PIO card for my son who is one year old. In the PIO card form there is a column asking for two specimen signatures of the applicant? Do i need to take some kind of thumbprint for my son here or can i myself sign the form.

Many Thanks

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:08 pm

Bhavna,
When i applied for my infant daughter I signed in those spaces myself and put my name and Father in brackets underneath and that was OK. Her PIO card now has my signature with the info in brackets as well ( they just cut the box out and paste it on the PIO card).

The FAQ on the website also suggests you can put the infant's fingerprint too.

Dip · Post by **Dip** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:11 pm

... A painful experience. I filled in the online application for OIC and as per www.hcilondon.com, I printed and filled in the second part by hand. I stood in a queue amidst utter chaos at the embassy for over 3 hours to return empty handed.

On explaining the purpose of my visit, I was asked to stand in a queue outside the building to obtain a token number. After collecting my token, I went in and patiently waited for my turn. After half an hours wait, I realised that the token meant nothing and that I had to join the queue inside.

Finally it was my turn and the guy at the counter asked me to disregard all that is put on the website and asked me to leave!! I wasnt going to leave that easy after the painful ordeal. I met 4-5 people, all of whom were unhelpful and said the website means nothing to them!!

Need I say more!!

bhavna · Post by **bhavna** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:21 pm

Thanks Lemess.

Board Members (Basis, Lemess or others - please tell what you did with Q15 in your form),

I have one more question. I am a bit confused with Question 15 in PIO form. i am going to apply on Friday. So please reply if you know the answer. Thanks

15. Have you or your parents or grand parents were born and permanently resident in territories falling in present day India, Pakistan and Bangladesh as on 30/03/1999.

I came to UK in 2000. Before that i was working in India and was also born in India (Kanpur). With my spouse its the same situation.

Do i need to fill the details needed for this question or can i leave it blank?

Thanks

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