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Overseas Citizenship of India (OCI)

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lemess
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Post by lemess » Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:31 pm

Bhavna,
Q 15 is a typically Indian civil service type dense question.

What I did was to enter the passport details there for my mother as I had not been resident in India as of 30/3/199 but my mother was.

In any cae if you put your own passport details (and your parents' if they were resident in india as of that day and you have their details) in Q 15 you should be OK.

ppron747
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Post by ppron747 » Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:25 am

lemess wrote:....OCI exists as a sticker in a foreign passport (unlike most 'proper' dual citizenships). A BS or BPP passport with an OCI sticker would be instantly invalid and therefore unusable.
Hmmm! I wonder if the Home Office were aware of the "sticker" aspect when they decided that OCI constitutes a citizenship. I would have thought that one of the essential elements of a citizenship must be the availability of a travel document issued by the country whose citizenship it is.

It seems to me that there might be room to challenge the Home Office ruling. This wouldn't, presumably, help BSs & BPPs, if they can't get OCI anyway, but it might help the odd BOC (if there are any) who has been told (or is told in the future) that he has rendered himself ineligible for section 4B registration because he has already acquired OCI.
|| paul R.I.P, January, 2007
Want a 2nd opinion? One will be along shortly....

JAJ
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Post by JAJ » Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:55 pm

ppron747 wrote: Hmmm! I wonder if the Home Office were aware of the "sticker" aspect when they decided that OCI constitutes a citizenship. I would have thought that one of the essential elements of a citizenship must be the availability of a travel document issued by the country whose citizenship it is.
They probably decided that OCI was a 'citizenship' because the Indian authorities decided to *call* it that. However if there is no passport available in that status, and presumably no access to Indian consular protection, then one does have to question whether it is a 'citizenship' - all categories of British nationality do carry entitlement to a UK passport (even if it isn't worth much) plus consular protection.
It seems to me that there might be room to challenge the Home Office ruling. This wouldn't, presumably, help BSs & BPPs, if they can't get OCI anyway, but it might help the odd BOC (if there are any) who has been told (or is told in the future) that he has rendered himself ineligible for section 4B registration because he has already acquired OCI.
This could come up in a number of ways:

- if a s4B application who was refused for holding OCI launched a legal challenge;
- if a person being deprived of British nationality argued he would otherwise be stateless despite holding OCI
- if a dual British/OCI person who got into trouble in India requsted British consular protection

There is no guarantee the courts would not simply concur with the Home Office view, but on the face of it, OCI seems to be in substance more akin to the UK Right of Abode immigration status rather than a nationality in its own right.

In the meantime, PIO seems a preferable status that avoids these complications.

lemess
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Post by lemess » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:03 pm

JAJ wrote: In the meantime, PIO seems a preferable status that avoids these complications.
Amen.

That's my point of view as well - not least because the Indian consular machinery is better equipped to issue PIO cards at the moment. As Dip's experience above shows, the OIC issuing process at Indian consulates at the moment is a complete shambles. Add to that the questionable value of the label anyway and applying for a PIO card seems the logical choice for most people.

basis

Post by basis » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:45 pm

Below questions are asked from the point of view of a PIO / OIC returning to India and not one who is still residing outside India

1. Can a PIO / OCI take up employement in India ? Are there any special documents to be submitted to any govt agency ?

2. Can one apply for OIC from within India if one has PIO ?

3. What's the status of bank accounts in India for a PIO / OCI? Can they operate resident accounts when they are resident in India.

4. Can PIO / OCI acquire residential / commercial immovable property in India by way of purchase ?

5. Can PIO / OCI start a business in India ? Is there any special process for that ?

6. What does the term 'Parity with NRIs in financial, economic and educational fields ' actually mean ? What does it include ?

dabar
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Good News

Post by dabar » Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:58 pm

HCI London will start accepting OCI applications from 9th Jan 2006.

http://hcilondon.net/Overseas-Indian-Ci ... exnew.html

rahul_yanina
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Post by rahul_yanina » Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:43 pm

Hi guys,
I have asimple question which may be difficult to answer - if I apply and get the OIC stamp on my British passport, is there a risk of losing British citizenship? I got BC last December.

Additionally if I then go and settle in India is there a risk of losing BC?

lemess
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Post by lemess » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:38 am

rahul_yanina wrote:Hi guys,
I have asimple question which may be difficult to answer - if I apply and get the OIC stamp on my British passport, is there a risk of losing British citizenship? I got BC last December.

Additionally if I then go and settle in India is there a risk of losing BC?
Very simply NO and NO.

1.You can only get OIC if you have a British passport ( or the passport of a country that allows dual nationality).

2.There is no danger of losing your British citizenship by registering as an OIC. Britain fully recognises dual citizenship anyway and OIC is not even proper dual citizenship ( in that you don't get an Indian passport).

3. No - there is little risk of losing your British citzenship just because you choose to settle outside the UK. At the time of your naturalisation application your intention should have been to make the UK your main home but there is no provision for citizenship to be stripped simply because you make a different choice in response to life events at a later date etc. The only way you can lose BC is by renouncing it or in the exceptional case where the home secretary chooses to do so in the public interest which is extremely unlikely. In either case as OIC is not a full dual citizenship and is linked to a specific foreign citizenship, being stripped of BC would leave someone stateless which I don't think is permissible under British Nationality rules ( as far as I know).

The key implication of an OIC stamp on your british passport is that whilst in India you cannot get british consular protection. Apart from that it is like an ILR stamp for India ( without there being any minimum residence restrictons). it also has a route to regaining full Indian citizenship ( after 5 years of being an OIC and 1 year in india ) and if you choose to do that you would have to renounce your British citizenship.

basis

Post by basis » Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:07 am

Does anyone know any groups, message boards by returning Indians - PIOs mainly to share their experience in India. It would be of immense help to all the people who are or would be returning to India on a PIO / in future OCI.

basis

First OCI Cards Issued

Post by basis » Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:17 am

First OCI Cards Issued

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...how/1362735.cms
http://us.rediff.com/news/2006/jan/...?q=tp&file=.htm

Two Indian Americans receive OCI card

HYDERABAD: Nivruti Rai and Iftekhar Shareef, both Indian Americans, received the first Overseas Citizenship of India (OCI) cards from Prime Minister Manmohan Singh at the inaugural ceremony of the fourth Pravasi Bharatiya Divas here on Saturday.

"I feel honoured to receive the first OCI card at the hands of the prime minister," Rai said.

"It is like reconnecting myself to Indian roots. I have been living in the US for 15 years. I got the US citizenship two years ago. I am really excited to have the dual citizenship," said Rai.

"We have been waiting for the dual citizenship for a long time," she said. Rai expects the OCI card would facilitate her multiple entries to India.

http://us.rediff.com/news/2006/jan/...?q=tp&file=.htm

Dr Singh presents first OCI cards

George Iype in Hyderabad | January 07, 2006 13:57 IST


Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Saturday inaugurated the 3rd Pravasi Bharatiya Divas in Hyderabad by fulfilling a promise that his government made last year - to grant Overseas Citizenship India cards to Persons of Indian Origin.

Dr Singh presented the first Overseas Citizenship India cards to two Persons of Indian Origin during the PBD inaugural ceremony - Nirvruti Rai and Iftar Ahmed Sherief.

"Last year at Mumbai, I had declared our government's intention to make sure that one day, every PIO living anywhere in the world can aspire to become a citizen of our sacred Motherland. Today we have delivered on our promise," Dr Singh said.

He said the Ministry of Overseas Indian Affairs will soon complete the process of rationalisation of categories for the OCI cards and ensure convergence of benefits. Oscar Fernandes, Minister for Overseas Indian Affairs said that the procedures to grant the OCI cards are being simplified.

On Saturday, the Ministry also released an OCI handbook, which explains the guidelines for getting OCI cards. The first OCI card, which Dr Singh presented comprises:

A multiple entry, multi-purpose lifelong visa for visiting India.
Exemption from registration with local police authority for any length of stay in India.
Parity with Non-Rresident Indians in respect of economic, financial and educational fields, except in relation to acquisition of agricultural or plantation properties.
Any other benefits to OCIs will be notified by the Ministry of Overseas Indian Affairs under Section 7B(1) of the Citizenship Act, 1955.

However, the OCI cardholder is not entitled to vote, be a member of Legislative Assembly or Legislative Council or Parliament, cannot hold constitutional posts such as president, vice-president, judge of the Supreme Court or High Court, etc and he/she cannot normally hold employment in the government.

A foreign national, who was eligible to become citizen of India on January 26, 1950 or was a citizen of India on or at anytime after January 26, 1950 or belonged to a territory that became part of India after August 15, 1947 and his/her children and grand children, provided his/her country of citizenship allows dual citizenship in some form or other under the local laws, is eligible for registration as OCI.

Minor children of such persons are also eligible for the OCI cards. However, if the applicant had ever been a citizen of Pakistan or Bangladesh, he/she will not be eligible for OCI.
Last edited by basis on Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

lemess
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Re: First OCI Cards Issued

Post by lemess » Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:27 am

In my view all this self congratulation and hype about having "delivered" on a promise are utterly misplaced. OIC is no more than a visa or ILR equivalent. There is no Indian passport, no voting rights and it is linked to a specific foreign passport. I don't see much difference between this and a PIO card and believe that the whole thing is a scam. For proper dual citizenship all the government had to do was.... NOTHING ! Just don't require anyone who takes foreign citizenship to surrender their Indian passport and amend the constitution accordingly. That is how dual citizenships work the world over. What we have on the other hand is an elaborate bureaucratic mess which is a visa sticker being promoted as some great government achievement in deliverng dual citizenship. Typical Indian civil service response to what should have been a simple and straightforward issue.

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Post by John » Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:44 am

Lemess wrote:The only way you can lose BC is by renouncing it or in the exceptional case where the home secretary chooses to do so in the public interest which is extremely unlikely.
There is also specific provision in the law for BC to be revoked if it later becomes clear that BC was obtained by fraud or by supplying false information.

The extreme example of that is that the AN(NEW) application form has a question :-
4.10 Have you ever been involved in financing, planning, preparation, commission or attempted commission of terrorist acts or in supporting acts of terrorism either within or outside the UK or have you been a member or supporter of an organisation which has perpetrated or supported acts of terrorism in furtherance or its aims?
Needless to say, answering "yes" to that will see the application declined. And if answered "no" and that later turns out to be wrong then BC can be revoked.

But the application form also includes :-
3.3 If you are not married to a British citizen tell us in which country you intend to have your principal home if you are naturalised.
Lemess, as you rightly say, that is about intention at the time of application. But in an extreme case if someone becomes naturalised, gets their British Passport soon thereafter, and then flies off to live elsewhere, that must at least place doubt on the accuracy of the answer given.
rahul_yanina wrote:Additionally if I then go and settle in India is there a risk of losing BC?
Well if you do that too blatantly and soon after getting naturalised then I think there is at least a theoretical danger of BC being removed. That assumes of course that you were not married to a British Citizen when you made your application.

But if you have simply had a change of mind after becoming naturalised then there is no danger of you having BC withdrawn on grounds relating to your Q3.3 answer.
John

lemess
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Post by lemess » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:03 am

John wrote:[Well if you do that too blatantly and soon after getting naturalised then I think there is at least a theoretical danger of BC being removed. That assumes of course that you were not married to a British Citizen when you made your application.

But if you have simply had a change of mind after becoming naturalised then there is no danger of you having BC withdrawn on grounds relating to your Q3.3 answer.
John , as you say - it may be theoretically possible but probably uneforceable and it just wouldn't make sense for anyone to pursue individual cases like this. Even if you go off and live somewhere shortly after naturalising, you may have every intention of returning to make the UK your main home - it is simply impossible to prove otherwise. I think realistically unless you have supplied blatantly false information on your naturalisation form there is very little danger of your British citzenship being stripped.

Also remember that for Indian citizens, British nationality becomes the only citizenship they have after taking the oath. Stripping them of this citizenship would leave them stateless - something the British nationality act disallows as far as I know so I doubt if this is even theoretically possible in case of Indian citizens who naturalise. I suspect criminal proceedings may be the only legal option in these cases ( where false information has been supplied on the form). In general I think that means Indian nationals who acquire British citizenship are basically safe from ever being stripped of it - unless they are fully recognised citizens of another state. OIC does not fall under this category as it is not a full citizenship of a state and if British citizenship were to be revoked, the OIC would become invalid as well as it exists in the form of a visa sticker on a British passport. So bottom line is if you were Indian you're pretty safe from ever losing your BC - worst case you could spend some quality time in jail :)

basis

Post by basis » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:02 pm

John wrote:
3.3 If you are not married to a British citizen tell us in which country you intend to have your principal home if you are naturalised.
Lemess, as you rightly say, that is about intention at the time of application. But in an extreme case if someone becomes naturalised, gets their British Passport soon thereafter, and then flies off to live elsewhere, that must at least place doubt on the accuracy of the answer given.
rahul_yanina wrote:Additionally if I then go and settle in India is there a risk of losing BC?
Well if you do that too blatantly and soon after getting naturalised then I think there is at least a theoretical danger of BC being removed. That assumes of course that you were not married to a British Citizen when you made your application.

But if you have simply had a change of mind after becoming naturalised then there is no danger of you having BC withdrawn on grounds relating to your Q3.3 answer.
Well the moot question is how can one decide whether the applicant 'simply changed mide' or provided false information' unless the applicant is made to take a lie detector test etc.?

And how can one define 'too blatantly' OR 'soon after' ?

basis

Post by basis » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:10 pm

One good group to find lot of information and discuss the queries on returning to India is http://groups.msn.com/R2IClub/

lemess
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Post by lemess » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:30 pm

basis wrote:Well the moot question is how can one decide whether the applicant 'simply changed mide' or provided false information' unless the applicant is made to take a lie detector test etc.?

And how can one define 'too blatantly' OR 'soon after' ?
That's why I think these things are unenforceable as they call for subjective judgements and it is impossible to interpret these consistently in the absence of any rules of thumb. Also, I think the key overriding feature in case of ex- Indian nationals is that even if it was obvious they had no intention of staying in the UK and it could be proven they had lied on the naturalisation application, it would not be possible to strip them of BC as doing so would leave them stateless which is not allowed under the british nationality act. This is the reason that Abu Hamza is still a British Citizen - he is no longer Egyptian and would be stateless if his BC were to be revoked ! This explains how Blunkett's attempt to withdraw it from him failed in the courts. The bottom line is that unless you hold 'proper' dual nationality with your British citizenship ( and OIC is not that) , naturalisation as a British citizen is an essentially irreversible process.

basis

Checklist For FRRO/FRO Registration Formalities

Post by basis » Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:56 am

useful information for those who have PIO cards and are in India for a long term or for good.

On HCI London I found following which says the same thing -

http://www.hcilondon.net/visa/visa-formalities.html


Registration is required to be done only once during the validity of a visa irrespective of the number of times the foreigner leaves/re-enters India on a multi entry facility.

Following categories of foreigners are exempted from registration:
1. US Nationals holding ten-year Tourist/Business visas provided their continuous stay during each visit does not exceed 6 months.

2. Foreigners of Indian origin holding 5 year multiple entry X visa with an endorsement that "stay should not exceed 6 months during each visit."

3. Foreigners holding five-year Tourist visas, who are actively engaged in tourist/travel trade, desirous of visiting India frequently over extended periods for promotion of tourism etc., provided that their visa contains an endorsement that "continuous stay should not exceed 6 months".

4. Foreigners below the age of 16 years.

http://www.immigrationindia.nic.in/FAQ_Registration.htm

Question 1: Whether every foreigner is required to be registered?

Answer: No. Foreigners visiting India on any short-term visa i.e. valid upto 180 days or less are not required to register. Children below 16 years of age visiting India on any type of visa of any duration are also not required to register.

The following two categories of foreigners are required to register: -

(i) Foreigners entering India on a Student, Employment, Research or Missionary visa, which is valid for more than 180 days, are required to register with the FRRO/FRO/CHIO within 14 days of their arrival in India.

(ii) Foreigners visiting India on any other category of long-term visa which is valid for more than 180 days, are required to register only if they intend to stay in India for more than 180 days continuously during a particular visit. This registration can be done anytime within 180 days of arrival in India.

Question 2: Where can a foreigner register himself?

Answer: A foreigner is required to get himself registered with the FRRO/CHIO (in case of Delhi, Mumbai, Kolkata, Amritsar and Chennai) or the FRO (i.e. SP District) depending on the place where the foreigner intends to stay.


Question 3: Is a foreigner required to register himself/herself on each visit?

Answer: No, a foreigner is not required to register himself on each visit as long as he is visiting on the same visa on which he was first registered. The registree will be required to report to FRRO/FRO/CHIO if he re-enters India on a fresh visa. If the registree obtains a new passport during the validity of his registration and visa, he should get the visa transferred on to his new passport from FRRO/FRO/CHIO for which a service charge of Rs.235/- is levied.

dabar
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Post by dabar » Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:27 pm

Very useful information, Basis!
Thanks for the compilation!

JAJ
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Post by JAJ » Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:46 pm

lemess wrote: John , as you say - it may be theoretically possible but probably uneforceable and it just wouldn't make sense for anyone to pursue individual cases like this. Even if you go off and live somewhere shortly after naturalising, you may have every intention of returning to make the UK your main home - it is simply impossible to prove otherwise. I think realistically unless you have supplied blatantly false information on your naturalisation form there is very little danger of your British citzenship being stripped.
It's odd that a future intentions requirement doesn't apply to naturalisation applicants who are spouses of British citizens. Not does it apply to "section 4" registration applicants.

I'd agree that in effect it's unenforceable other than to the extent it usually requires someone to remain *living* in the UK until sworn in as a British citizen (or working overseas for the British government or a UK corporation).

In the British Nationality Act 1948 there was a clause which allowed naturalised UK citizens to be stripped of citizenship if they lived overseas for 7 years and didn't register an intention to retain UK citizenship. This was repealed in 1964 because presumably it was seen as an undesirable imposition (perhaps British missions had better things to do than handle retention notifications).

Australia, Canada and the U.S. have also had laws in the past affecting naturalised citizens who moved overseas - all repealed.

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Post by JAJ » Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:51 pm

lemess wrote: The bottom line is that unless you hold 'proper' dual nationality with your British citizenship ( and OIC is not that) , naturalisation as a British citizen is an essentially irreversible process.
At least under current policy, the Home Office do view OIC as a 'nationality' but a conclusive view could only be given by the courts.

lemess
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Post by lemess » Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:59 pm

JAJ wrote:
lemess wrote: The bottom line is that unless you hold 'proper' dual nationality with your British citizenship ( and OIC is not that) , naturalisation as a British citizen is an essentially irreversible process.
At least under current policy, the Home Office do view OIC as a 'nationality' but a conclusive view could only be given by the courts.
The key test of whether OIC is a nationality is whether stripping someone who has it of their british citizenship would render them stateless. As the OIC is a visa sticker in the British passport, no BC = no british passport = no OIC.
Statelessness is not a permissible after effect of revocation of british citizenship and OICs are not Indian citizens or entitled to an Indian passport. Therefore it is fairly certain that an OIC's BC is safe.

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Post by JAJ » Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:30 pm

lemess wrote: The key test of whether OIC is a nationality is whether stripping someone who has it of their british citizenship would render them stateless. As the OIC is a visa sticker in the British passport, no BC = no british passport = no OIC.
Statelessness is not a permissible after effect of revocation of british citizenship and OICs are not Indian citizens or entitled to an Indian passport. Therefore it is fairly certain that an OIC's BC is safe.
As I say the *existing* view of the Home Office is that OIC is a second-tier category of Indian nationality, in the same sense as British subject status or US nationality without citizenship (people from American Samoa have this).

It may well be that the Home Office have misunderstood the nature of OIC - not of course helped by the way the Indian government chose to *call* it a 'citizenship'. The issue will come to a head in any of the following circumstances:

- if there were ever moves to deprive a dual British/OIC citizen of British citizenship
- if India refused to allow consular access to a dual British/OIC in trouble in India
- if registration as a British citizen was ever refused on the basis of holding OIC, notably section 4B registration but perhaps any other clause in the Act which requires statelessness as a condition of acquiring British citizenship.

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Post by ppron747 » Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:12 am

JAJ wrote:It's odd that a future intentions requirement doesn't apply to naturalisation applicants who are spouses of British citizens.....
Not really - I think the point is that married couples' intentions as regards where they're going to live should be joint intentions. To require the spouse of a British citizen to intend to continue to live in UK could conflict with the intentions of the BC spouse. IMO, the only way you could introduce a "future intentions" requirement for 6(2) applicants would be to have the BC spouse co-sign the application, which (in cases where the applicant is the wife) would be harking back to the bad old days of "wifely duties". IMO anyway, as I said :)
JAJ wrote: In the British Nationality Act 1948 there was a clause which allowed naturalised UK citizens to be stripped of citizenship if they lived overseas for 7 years and didn't register an intention to retain UK citizenship....
But - as I said when you last said that - only when it was "not conducive to the public good" for that individual to continue to be a CUKC
|| paul R.I.P, January, 2007
Want a 2nd opinion? One will be along shortly....

yorkking
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hi

Post by yorkking » Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:40 pm

I applied for a PIO card for my family on 19/12.
I was told that it would be ready by 6/1.
No news yet from the Indian High Commission.
Can someone help me? How to follow up with IHC? I find it v difficult to get thru using telephones.
Please help.
YK

lemess
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Post by lemess » Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:57 pm

Yorkking,
Did you enclose a self addressed special delivery envelope with your application ?

If you haven't enclosed such an envelope you are meant to go and pick it up in person at the High Commission on the date mentioned on your receipt ( should be at the back). If this is the 6th then your PIO card would be ready for collection after that.
If you need to follow up regarding your app- I think in practice the best way is to turn up at the high commission and ask for someone to chase it up - be aware though that the visa section of the HC is a complete cattle market. If you have more time you can always write to them.

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