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EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exit?

Use this section for any queries concerning the EU Settlement Scheme, for applicants holding pre-settled and settled status.

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chrisnorth
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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by chrisnorth » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:33 pm

I very much appreciate all the help and answers I've received. ban.s likely knows way more than me about UK politics and if he said that referendum is unlikely, that opinion likely has good weight. I wish I could just stop there.
Hubba wrote:Man, seriously, stop going mad over something that is out of your control. There isn't even a line of law about these hypothetical situations yet.
I'm sorry that maybe I wasn't very clear. I have reasons to be worried but I didn't want to give much detail about why. I didn't want to sound really dramatic but this is pretty much life or death situation here (I know it sounds silly but different things happen in life). I have limited time to make a decision what to do.

There's a lot of information online, for example Brexit competition entries, then a similar analysis by another guy, politicians proposing one or another route outside of EU and so on... Not too long ago I participated in an experiment related to IT and many people said that nobody knows what will happen and that it's impossible to predict that thing as it's new and very experimental, other people said that it's possible to predict and made their predictions. Some of them were right, some of them were wrong. But while some people said it was impossible to predict or made wrong predictions, other people were getting the information from the right sources and were able to make way better predictions than others because they were more informed. So I believe it's always possible to be more informed.
Hubba wrote:Example of this would be changes to the already existing non-EU immigration framework. If they decide tomorrow to change the naturalisation requirements, thousands of people would be affected, but the government would be on its right to pass the law and enforce it. Such change could of course be questioned on court, but who knows what would be the outcome.
OK. I wonder why naturalisation requirements would be retrospective but PR requirements as quoted below were not.
askmeplz82 wrote: only benefit i can see is if in future EEA law change it will not effect you.
for example. UKBA didn't ask students before 2011 who registered with EEA1 to provide evidence of comprehensive sickness insurance, and later if they apply for permanent residence as a student, their application will not be refused solely on the grounds that there is no evidence of comprehensive sickness insurance on the date of decision.
http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 58710.html
chaoclive wrote:I totally agree. Absolutely no point worrying at this stage. Wait until something is actually decided and then consider your options.
Unfortunately just waiting until something happens means reducing options in this case.

chaoclive
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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by chaoclive » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:42 pm

chaoclive wrote:I totally agree. Absolutely no point worrying at this stage. Wait until something is actually decided and then consider your options.
Unfortunately just waiting until something happens means reducing options in this case.[/quote]

Don't know what else you can do apart from abide by the rules as they exist now...same as everyone else in your situation.

chrisnorth
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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by chrisnorth » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:53 pm

Hubba wrote:There's no amount of questioning that will help you with it. As I've said, there is no framework or guarantees in law regarding the immigration status of EU citizens in the case of UK exit of the EU. There simply isn't any, this situation is not covered by law at the moment and is completely hypothetical. It would be entirely for the UK government to come up with such law framework. Of course, other countries may be able to influence a bit due to the presence of UK nationals on their territory, but at the end, the UK government is who will create the law.
Hubba wrote:Of course, people who applies before exit date would be fine, since their application would have to be honored by the UK since the application itself would have been done whilst the Treaty was valid.
I think statements in these two quotes contradict one another. In one you say "people who applies before exit date would be fine" (I defined what fine means for me - it's being able to stay in UK indefinitely, everything else is not fine at all), and in another you imply that thinking about what will happen is futile and I'm not alone as even authors of numerous papers ask similar questions. I wrote before that I don't seek guarantees, but seek information or ideas. Why would a law professor from a UK university write an article (linked a while ago in this thread) where she discusses the likely outcome if it's so futile to try predict it? Maybe we should conclude that her article is bad and unprofessional then, since she definitely dared to say what likely would the status of EU nationals be.
chaoclive wrote:Don't know what else you can do apart from abide by the rules as they exist now...same as everyone else in your situation.
I know this is not a counceling forum, but I need help. If someone is in a good state of mind and has any ideas or information and doesn't mind helping someone who is not in a good state, I would be thankful. I have found quite a lot of info myself, but unless someone else needs it, I'll keep it to myself I guess.

chaoclive
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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by chaoclive » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:30 pm

Sharing the information that you have might inspire others who are interested to share theirs with you!

chrisnorth
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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by chrisnorth » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:38 am

If anyone has the same situation that I do I assume they will post here and tell me about it. So far nobody else seems to care. If I'm just going to post here what I have I will be talking to myself. I have some info, none of it 100% sure obviously and none of it makes me certain. Even the article mentioned above is a bit vague in its terms unfortunately.

But I'm hoping that it actually IS certain that once a person goes to UK with his EU document, the regulation and directive execute, and once they're executed, then basically it doesn't matter if one goes to UK today and exit happens tomorrow, then the directive and/or regulation in question will fully apply to them and they will still be able to get PR 5 years later if they don't break the continuity of treaty rights. That's my very, very bold assumption so far, but I'm not sure as nobody yet challenged it.

Hubba, obviously you suggest that there's nothing in law (or how the law usually works?) that says or implies what would happen, which means that you disagree with my assumption. It would help if you could say why you think my assumption is wrong, and assuming that you understand the law, give clear reasoning for that. I think all EU nationals who plan to come to UK and want to stay would be interested in what you say.

Hubba
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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by Hubba » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:33 am

chrisnorth wrote:
Hubba wrote:There's no amount of questioning that will help you with it. As I've said, there is no framework or guarantees in law regarding the immigration status of EU citizens in the case of UK exit of the EU. There simply isn't any, this situation is not covered by law at the moment and is completely hypothetical. It would be entirely for the UK government to come up with such law framework. Of course, other countries may be able to influence a bit due to the presence of UK nationals on their territory, but at the end, the UK government is who will create the law.
Hubba wrote:Of course, people who applies before exit date would be fine, since their application would have to be honored by the UK since the application itself would have been done whilst the Treaty was valid.
I think statements in these two quotes contradict one another. In one you say "people who applies before exit date would be fine" (I defined what fine means for me - it's being able to stay in UK indefinitely, everything else is not fine at all), and in another you imply that thinking about what will happen is futile and I'm not alone as even authors of numerous papers ask similar questions. I wrote before that I don't seek guarantees, but seek information or ideas. Why would a law professor from a UK university write an article (linked a while ago in this thread) where she discusses the likely outcome if it's so futile to try predict it? Maybe we should conclude that her article is bad and unprofessional then, since she definitely dared to say what likely would the status of EU nationals be.
No contradictions there. One is regarding applications done before any changes, i.e. applications done using the current EU framework, which would not be valid anymore for new applications if the UK exits the EU.

Check yourself the current law on this subject, such as the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 an the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2006 and The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006. There are no provisions related to a member's exit from the EU. New regulations would have to be created. I have already given you clear reasoning. You're expecting that every single future case of law is included on the current legal framework, but that's not how law works on this country. Tipically on places where the law is codified the legal code tries to cover every single imaginable scenario, but that's not the case here. Such is common law. The laws are built organically based on previous judgements and bills enacted by parliament.
chrisnorth wrote:Why would a law professor from a UK university write an article (linked a while ago in this thread) where she discusses the likely outcome if it's so futile to try predict it? Maybe we should conclude that her article is bad and unprofessional then, since she definitely dared to say what likely would the status of EU nationals be.
They key point here is "likely outcome". The "likely outcome" indicates this is just conjecture, i.e. the author of such paper is speculating what could possibly happen and what would be the logical outcome of an hypothetical situation. This is not law, it's conjecture (i.e. educated guessing).

You're looking for something that doesn't exist. If it existed there wouldn't be so much speculation of what would happen, since it would already be known.

I'm off this thread now, because sincerely I'm getting tired of hitting the same nail again and again. I'll just repeat what I've said before.
When immigrating abroad you're always depositing your trust on the government of the country you're immigrating to. It is something that every immigrant must learn to live with until such government becomes your government, i.e. a government that represents you. This is something most people who emigrate have trouble living with.
.

If you can't handle this level of discomfort, you're in for a troubled ride on immigrating.

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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by yoshi_jp » Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:00 pm

People have short memories, indeed. Within my life time, Europe saw such changes in a massive scale. When the Soviet Union collapsed, everyone was basically allowed to live in the newly-independent states of their residence in at the time of independence. Whether they could automatically acquire the nationality of their new country of residence depended on where they were, but even the "non-citizens" in Latvia and Estonia are still there legally. Same happened when Czechoslovakia broke up. Nobody was forced to relocate. Yugoslavia was quite a bit more messy, but I've seen enough Albanians and Macedonians in Vojvodina, which is basically the opposite end of the country from their ethnic origins.

Now, think about the UK government trying to retrospectively alter the rules and apply them to literally millions of people legally living here up till the future Brexit. They recently tried to do something similar to those HSMP holders by changing the residential qualifying period towards ILR from 4 years to 5, and that became a huge nightmare for the government. In the end, we all know that they lost the case and we still see the special provision for those people in place. So, what if the Whitehall geniuses repeating the same to kick out millions of people who have moved to the UK in a clear understanding (which has been endorsed publicly by the government) that they would like to live here and settle eventually as per the rules in place pre-Brexit? They will be even in a deeper judicial rubbish pit.

Then, how are they going to organise the necessary logistics of forced repatriation? They don't even have enough resources to deport a very small number of known criminals and over-stayers now.

If I was in a position to worry about it, I would apply for EEA1/2/3/4, SET(LR) or anything else that matters and solidify my status in this country as of now. IF that won't be enough for you in the event of Brexit, that won't be enough for literally millions of people on both sides of the Channel, and that alone will create more-than-enough practical chaos to bring Europe from Lisbon to Constanța to its knees. Now, that spectacle will make anything by William Hogarth look like good news from heaven.

That, indeed, will be our time to abandon Europe and run for life to Tokyo.

chrisnorth
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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by chrisnorth » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:06 pm

Hubba wrote:No contradictions there. One is regarding applications done before any changes, i.e. applications done using the current EU framework, which would not be valid anymore for new applications if the UK exits the EU.
If "fine" means being able to stay in UK indefinitely and you said that those who applied (whatever application you've meant is unclear) before exit will be "fine", something is not very clear. But yes, we agreed that we can make guesses.
Hubba wrote:Check yourself the current law on this subject, such as the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 an the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2006 and The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006. There are no provisions related to a member's exit from the EU.
Yes, I have read the The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations. Although not every single word there. Yes, there are no provisions related to member's exit.
Hubba wrote:New regulations would have to be created. I have already given you clear reasoning. You're expecting that every single future case of law is included on the current legal framework, but that's not how law works on this country. Tipically on places where the law is codified the legal code tries to cover every single imaginable scenario, but that's not the case here. Such is common law. The laws are built organically based on previous judgements and bills enacted by parliament.
This is very helpful, thanks. Yes, I did assume that every future case would be included. And before that you were right, I was looking for reassurance.
When immigrating abroad you're always depositing your trust on the government of the country you're immigrating to. It is something that every immigrant must learn to live with until such government becomes your government, i.e. a government that represents you. This is something most people who emigrate have trouble living with.
.

You are right.

chrisnorth
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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by chrisnorth » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:10 pm

yoshi_jp wrote:Now, think about the UK government trying to retrospectively alter the rules and apply them to literally millions of people legally living here up till the future Brexit. They recently tried to do something similar to those HSMP holders by changing the residential qualifying period towards ILR from 4 years to 5, and that became a huge nightmare for the government. In the end, we all know that they lost the case and we still see the special provision for those people in place. [/b]
Could you point to that special provision, please?

chrisnorth
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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by chrisnorth » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:24 pm

From what I've read about those HSMP holders, if I remember right, they've had work permits when 4 years have passed. I think many EU nationals after exit will not be eligible for work permits if that's going to be required. I think it's because their visa ended or something. Not sure. I've read both court decision documents linked in a mentioned article.

What I have learned is there is a legal definition called "acquired rights" and it's pretty much solid in international law (?). The only problem is I'm not sure what this definition of "acquired" or "versed rights" exactly means in relation to this topic. But from what I understand, acquired right is, for example, a right for extended residence as per EEA regulations. "A qualified person is entitled to reside in the United Kingdom for so long as he remains a qualified person." I think this right right here would be acquired once EU national starts being qualified.

There's one thing that is absolutely hilarious: many smart people were seriously discussing Cameron's words where he said that if EU citizens won't find a job in six months they will be asked to leave. But it's already not permitted to reside more than 6 months as a jobseeker and it's not permitted to reside more than for 3 months without registering. So he basically proclaimed that he will require something that is already implemented into UK's law.

If you were in situation where getting PR is absolutely essential for you, would you be worried if you could only come to UK in, let's say end of 2015? If you could come before 2015 starts but you could potentially lose money for being unprepared and having to pay more for tickets, would you go without waiting?
yoshi_jp wrote:People have short memories, indeed. Within my life time, Europe saw such changes in a massive scale. When the Soviet Union collapsed, everyone was basically allowed to live in the newly-independent states of their residence in at the time of independence. Whether they could automatically acquire the nationality of their new country of residence depended on where they were, but even the "non-citizens" in Latvia and Estonia are still there legally. Same happened when Czechoslovakia broke up. Nobody was forced to relocate. Yugoslavia was quite a bit more messy, but I've seen enough Albanians and Macedonians in Vojvodina, which is basically the opposite end of the country from their ethnic origins.
So when SU collapsed, people could get citizenship depending on which country after the collapse they were in? Is this really correct? "but even the "non-citizens" in Latvia and Estonia are still there legally" What is a difference between non-citizens and those who were citizens of Soviet Union? Or these were separate things? And were those non-citizens allowed to become citizens of Latvia or Estonia without any requirements?
yoshi_jp wrote:If I was in a position to worry about it, I would apply for EEA1/2/3/4, SET(LR) or anything else that matters and solidify my status in this country as of now.
This is with understanding that many new arrivals will only be able to apply for EEA1, right?

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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by yoshi_jp » Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:34 pm

chrisnorth wrote: So when SU collapsed, people could get citizenship depending on which country after the collapse they were in?


In most cases. For example, a good friend of mine is a citizen of Kazakhstan even though his father is Jewish and mother Russian. He doesn't speak Kazakh at all, for a start. The obvious examples are some of those Russian speakers in the East of Ukraine. I happen to have a friend there, who identifies herself as an ethnic Russian, yet has a Ukrainian passport. She basically became a Ukrainian citizen automatically upon the independence of Ukraine even though her parents came from West Siberia. The government automatically changed her name from Svetlana (RU) to Svitlana (UKR), but that's another story.
chrisnorth wrote: Is this really correct? "but even the "non-citizens" in Latvia and Estonia are still there legally" What is a difference between non-citizens and those who were citizens of Soviet Union?
The so-called non-citizens of Latvia and Estonia are mainly Russian-speaking people who or whose parents or grandparents migrated from the rest of the USSR during the period of Soviet occupation/administration/liberation/oppression/aggression (delete as you please). They did NOT automatically become Estonian or Latvian citizens upon independence even though they were Soviet citizens, since their immigration to these states happened during the Soviet occupation, which many say was illegal. Although they did not acquire Estonian/Latvian nationals, they were allowed to live there permanently on the day of independence of respective states.

Now, can you still believe that you and your likes will be shipped away en masse post-Brexit? Do you think Spain and France can afford sending back every British national back to Britain as well?
chrisnorth wrote:
yoshi_jp wrote:If I was in a position to worry about it, I would apply for EEA1/2/3/4, SET(LR) or anything else that matters and solidify my status in this country as of now.
This is with understanding that many new arrivals will only be able to apply for EEA1, right?
The whole point of the idea is to prove the legality of your presence in the UK ON THE DATE OF BREXIT. The UK immigration policy always comes with a transitional arrangement every time it undergoes a change. If you are in the UK legally on the date of horror (joy, for some), you will have to follow the rules under which you were allowed to stay in this country in the first place. Besides, EEA1 residence document has no expiry date on it, anyway.

No other scenario is practically possible. They won't even have enough resources to deport the ultra-small number of Japanese nationals with EEA2/4 in Liverpool alone, never mind everyone from my wife's country (Poland).

What happens if they close your route to settlement and leave you in a permanent state of limbo? Like, you're allowed to be here but not allowed to settle and cannot rely on benefit, which most of us don't use anyway? Then, you can still carry on living and working, and the UK will simply have made the same large group of people more angry and riotous. They won't have, for no obvious benefit, a million or so of potential rioters permanently at 5 seconds before explosion. If it all comes down to that level of human darkness, I will desperately try to leave.

So, stop worrying. If they really go utterly bonkers and decide to ship away everyone like you and me, to/from the UK, left and right in the EU and ex-EU, it's a bit stupid to worry about your right to stay in the middle of that god-forsaken festival of taxpayer-funded mass human trafficking. You should really worry about your likelyhood of escaping from the chaos in one piece, and many people will envy your ability to do so.

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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by dalebutt » Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:18 pm

Whilst I found the contribution of Yoshi very interesting and informative, I think I have been compelled to contribute to this thread, albeit in my view it's a bit like exacerbating the consequences of Brexit, and contrary to what many may like to think, freedom of movement is not a result of Britain membership of the EU, rather it is a result of membership of the EEA, hence the title EEA regulations 2006.

Brexit would not stop the freedom of movement of persons, Norway is not an EU member country but an EEA and are compelled to transpose directive 2004/38EC in their national law. Freedom of movement is not derived in the EU, and it is incomprehensible and would amount to economic suicide if Britain were to leave the EEA, all of this Brexit is nothing but a mirage, not a lot will change in the event Britain left the EU.
Last edited by dalebutt on Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

chrisnorth
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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by chrisnorth » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:09 am

yoshi_jp wrote: Now, can you still believe that you and your likes will be shipped away en masse post-Brexit? Do you think Spain and France can afford sending back every British national back to Britain as well?
I was desperately trying to find this out in this thread but the only person who actually cared to talk about it on this level is you. Either I'm not good at asking for help or nobody understands what's to worry about here. I do not understand things other people may understand, I'm (was at least) totally clueless about how UK immigration law works so what may be obvious for others isn't obvious to me at all. All I know is that anti-immigration party openly talked about people having to apply for work permits or leave.
yoshi_jp wrote:If you are in the UK legally on the date of horror (joy, for some), you will have to follow the rules under which you were allowed to stay in this country in the first place. Besides, EEA1 residence document has no expiry date on it, anyway.
This part wasn't clear to me! Еxcept for certificate's expiry date, which I know of, of course, but I'm afraid it doesn't mean much. It wasn't clear to me whether I would have to follow all the EEA rules and would have have all of the benefits at the time I have applied for EEA1, or I will only have rights that I acquired like "extended right of residence" but PR will be unavailable once exit happens. Hubba basically said that EEA1 won't help people automatically, that's how I've read it. He said people who applied would be "fine", but how are they going to be fine exactly is a mystery as like you write below they'd be in a limbo. Allowed to stay but with no route to settlement!
Your replies, yoshi_jp, sound like you actually care about what it would mean to living people. But looking at the whole EU debate it looks like the world has "moved on" already.
yoshi_jp wrote:No other scenario is practically possible. They won't even have enough resources to deport the ultra-small number of Japanese nationals with EEA2/4 in Liverpool alone, never mind everyone from my wife's country (Poland).

What happens if they close your route to settlement and leave you in a permanent state of limbo? Like, you're allowed to be here but not allowed to settle and cannot rely on benefit, which most of us don't use anyway? Then, you can still carry on living and working, and the UK will simply have made the same large group of people more angry and riotous.
Good question. I'm afraid I would just not have a right to stay. That seems to be the whole point of quitting EU in the first place, so that low skilled wouldn't have a right to settle in a Great Britain anymore. I'm not really as low skilled, but I don't have a paper to prove it which is the same thing basically. Even though the same anti-immigration party said that everyone who is in a country will be able to stay, it's hard to believe them as just days ago they've said a different thing. Just listening to them I don't trust them to do what they say.
yoshi_jp wrote:So, stop worrying. If they really go utterly bonkers and decide to ship away everyone like you and me, to/from the UK, left and right in the EU and ex-EU, it's a bit stupid to worry about your right to stay in the middle of that god-forsaken festival of taxpayer-funded mass human trafficking. You should really worry about your likelyhood of escaping from the chaos in one piece, and many people will envy your ability to do so.
It's hard for me not to, see above. Thank you for your reply, you understand what I'm worried about here.
Last edited by chrisnorth on Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by chrisnorth » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:56 am

dalebutt wrote:Whilst I found the contribution of Yoshi very interesting and informative, I think I have been compelled to contribute to this thread, albeit in my view it's a bit like exacerbating the consequences of Brexit, and contrary to what many may like to think, freedom of movement is not a result of British member of EU, rather it is a result of the British membership of the EEA, hence the title EEA regulations 2006.

Brexit would not stop the freedom of movement of persons, Norway is not an EU member country but an EEA and are compelled to transpose directive 2004/38EC in their national law. Freedom of movement is not derived in the EU, and it is incomprehensible and would amount to economic suicide if Britain were to leave the EEA, all of this Brexit is nothing but a mirage, not a lot will change in the event Britain left the EU.
This I know but free movement is what they seem to have have a problem with, so they would want to get out of EEA if they can. Whether they can or not it's a question and I've been trying to find out.

One thing I don't understand. Has Switzerland managed to negotiate a freedom of movement without permanent residence while at the same time having a right for Switzerland's nationals to get permanent residence in other EU countries? I've read Switzerland's immigration site and it says that agreement they've signed doesn't cover permanent residence.

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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by dalebutt » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:58 am

There is route to permanent residency in Switzerland after 5 years of treaty rights,save for some Member States. https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home/th ... _efta.html

If Britain left the EU/EEA, which is very very unlikely, there will be some sort of trade agreements with the rest of the EU, there are over three hundred and fifty thousands Brits living in Spain alone, around a million living in the EU altogether, the other countries will simply reciprocate any repatriation actions by the British government, and what is the point of civilisation in all of these? There will be round table dialogue, the EU and Britain will make concessions where possible, it is not going to be a case of win win for one party, Britain may not be able to take in more migrants, but the rights of those who are legally residing here will not be affected.

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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by chrisnorth » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:48 pm

yoshi_jp wrote:The whole point of the idea is to prove the legality of your presence in the UK ON THE DATE OF BREXIT. The UK immigration policy always comes with a transitional arrangement every time it undergoes a change.
This is probably the key thing which I did not understand fully. At first I thought that traditional arrangements mean something like a time during possible negotiations during which the old rules would still apply (confused by some less popular politician's statements), not that a person who was granted a right to enter under old rules would be able to continue to reside under old rules and settle under those rules. So it's the second?

But then I've looked at some transitional arrangements rules for Tier 1 and Tier 2 from 2011 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... asures.pdf or or family migration rules changes from 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... am-mig.pdf
and it seems like "transitional arrangements" in these cases usually mean that once a person applies under old rules, he continues almost fully under old rules and can apply for settlement under old rules too. For example, in those Tear 1 and Tear 2 changes persons who already were granted leaves under Tear 1 and 2 were allowed to extend them under old conditions, for example. It was a bit different for settlement as it stated back then that there's an intent to stop settlement under Tier 1 and at gov.uk it says that only in 2018 Tier 1 is not available to those who want to settle. So it's like 8 years will have passed since the government made an intent to stop it. I understand Tier 1 and Tier 2 are different from EEA, but perhaps this would add to the case that it's likely that similar arrangements would also be in place and everyone from EEA with EEA1-4 would be able to get PR just because they already started on that route? Not talking about guarantees here, but more like about reasonable expectations.

Does this quote from a second link apply only for family members of those on visas or also for single persons on visas? It doesn't state "partners", just "those who applied".
Those who, before 9 July 2012, have applied for initial or further leave under
the rules in force prior to that date will, if they qualify for it, be granted leave
under those rules and will continue to be dealt with under those rules through
to indefinite leave to remain if they qualify for it (including those who have
applied for leave as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner), subject to the requirement
from October 2013 to pass the Life in the UK test and present an English language
speaking and listening qualification at B1 level or above to qualify for settlement. The
new criminality thresholds will also apply to such cases.

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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by 009516968 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:49 pm

chrisnorth wrote:
yoshi_jp wrote:The whole point of the idea is to prove the legality of your presence in the UK ON THE DATE OF BREXIT. The UK immigration policy always comes with a transitional arrangement every time it undergoes a change.
This is probably the key thing which I did not understand fully. At first I thought that traditional arrangements mean something like a time during possible negotiations during which the old rules would still apply (confused by some less popular politician's statements), not that a person who was granted a right to enter under old rules would be able to continue to reside under old rules and settle under those rules. So it's the second?

But then I've looked at some transitional arrangements rules for Tier 1 and Tier 2 from 2011 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... asures.pdf or or family migration rules changes from 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... am-mig.pdf
and it seems like "transitional arrangements" in these cases usually mean that once a person applies under old rules, he continues almost fully under old rules and can apply for settlement under old rules too. For example, in those Tear 1 and Tear 2 changes persons who already were granted leaves under Tear 1 and 2 were allowed to extend them under old conditions, for example. It was a bit different for settlement as it stated back then that there's an intent to stop settlement under Tier 1 and at gov.uk it says that only in 2018 Tier 1 is not available to those who want to settle. So it's like 8 years will have passed since the government made an intent to stop it. I understand Tier 1 and Tier 2 are different from EEA, but perhaps this would add to the case that it's likely that similar arrangements would also be in place and everyone from EEA with EEA1-4 would be able to get PR just because they already started on that route? Not talking about guarantees here, but more like about reasonable expectations.

Does this quote from a second link apply only for family members of those on visas or also for single persons on visas? It doesn't state "partners", just "those who applied".
Those who, before 9 July 2012, have applied for initial or further leave under
the rules in force prior to that date will, if they qualify for it, be granted leave
under those rules and will continue to be dealt with under those rules through
to indefinite leave to remain if they qualify for it (including those who have
applied for leave as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner), subject to the requirement
from October 2013 to pass the Life in the UK test and present an English language
speaking and listening qualification at B1 level or above to qualify for settlement. The
new criminality thresholds will also apply to such cases.


Putting it on a different perspective, I have lived and worked in the UK since 1992. If the UK were to leave the EU tomorrow, what would happen to my state pension? etc... As I have payed NI and Tax on my wages for 22 years???

fysicus
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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by fysicus » Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:48 pm

chrisnorth, I think this whole discussion is very premature, especially given the level of certainty that you are looking for.
Even if such a referendum will actually be held, I very much doubt that the outcome would be for the UK to leave the EU. It is just not in their interest, despite all the populist rhetoric by some politicians and some newspapers.
Then, suppose the British people will be so stupid to prove me wrong, there will be a period of at least two years before the step of leaving the EU will actually take place (see the Lisbon Treaty for that). So we're talking about 2019 as about the earliest possible date for a Brexit.
During this two-year period the laws to make the leaving process smooth will have to be written and passed by Parliament.
So far the government is only talking about leaving the EU, but staying in the EEA, which will put the UK in the same position as Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein (except that these three are also Schengen countries).
In practice almost nothing will change, because about 95% of all EU regulations (including Directive 2004/38 about free movement) is also binding for EEA countries. However, non-EU EEA countries have no say in this legislation; they just have to implement whatever rule is thrown at them. Why on earth would the UK want to reduce itself to such a status? I really can't see the benefit for the UK in such a step.

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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by chrisnorth » Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:58 pm

fysicus wrote:Then, suppose the British people will be so stupid to prove me wrong, there will be a period of at least two years before the step of leaving the EU will actually take place (see the Lisbon Treaty for that). So we're talking about 2019 as about the earliest possible date for a Brexit.
If 2019 the earliest will happen, then obviously everyone who would not get PR until that date could be asked to leave or just be in a limbo where they can live and work but can't get settled, right? This is not the situation I would want to be in. So for that reason, discussion is not premature. Unless you are sure that transitional arrangements will let everyone in a country at the date of exit to continue down their EEA route to settlement, or that UK will not leave EEA, or that the date of exit will be later. I didn't even know what "transitional arrangements" usually means.
Last edited by chrisnorth on Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by dalebutt » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:12 pm

chrisnorth wrote: If 2019 the earliest will happen, then obviously everyone who would not get PR until that date could be asked to leave or just be in a limbo where they can live and work but can't get settled, right? This is not the situation I would want to be in. So for that reason, discussion is not premature. Unless you are sure that transitional provisions will let everyone in a country at the date of exit to continue down their EEA route to settlement, or that UK will not leave EEA.
Exactly what benefit would discussing the matter bring for you? You want some sort of assurance with authority, which no one, including david cameron can provide at this time, what else is it to discuss? Please enlighten if I am missing something you obviously aren't

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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by chaoclive » Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:30 am

dalebutt wrote: Exactly what benefit would discussing the matter bring for you? You want some sort of assurance with authority, which no one, including david cameron can provide at this time, what else is it to discuss? Please enlighten if I am missing something you obviously aren't
Absolutely agree. He doesn't seem to know that what he is asking for can't be provided yet! I don't think there's any point to this thread tbh.

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Re: EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exi

Post by maxmelion » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:50 am

I think noone knows what gona happen but in may 2015 everything will be clear nd the view will be more clear
lets face the facts . UKIP is anti-europ party which mean if they win 100% uk out of euro as they said eu immigrants will leave immediatly nd only keep skills ppl
some ppl say thats only ellection show but i dnt think s
So all depend the outcome of may ellecation
LETS FACE THE FACTS
David cameron promised in 2017 ref for out-in eu
so if he win in 2017 ref out or in nd of course most of uk will bote out then he will leave note 2 years b4 leaves as eu policy so by 2019 might be out
Ukip really threat eu if they win bcos they are so bad party
SO in 2010 they have zero seat in pm
Unfortnatly this ellection 2 seat so far nd if they win more than 20% of nxt ellection or reach 30 seats in next ellection yhat outcome will be madness nd so bad more we think .
the facts is we all hope ed miliband be take over davide cameron or davide cameron win so we have chance till 2019 to sort out our postiton in uk .
Lets pray ukip lose nxt ellecation nd nigil farage has no POWER IN UK

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