VAF4 without national insurance number?

Hi all,

I am an Austrian citizen exercising my treaty rights, working here in the UK. I have an appointment for the registration certificate next week and all the documents needed to obtain it.

My partner is currently with me (as a tourist), but she has to return to the US next week. We were hoping for her to apply to join me right away and I had an appointment with the jobcentre for my national insurance number.. but unfortunately I missed it and now I have to wait until the 20th of December for the next one.

Apparently the new visa application form VAF4 for settlement has a section (6.9.) where they ask for the sponsor's NI number.. whereas the old form VAF2 didn't.. I have an appointment and I will also have the registration certificate, as well as payslips etc.

Now I am in desperate need for some advice.. does this mean my partner cannot apply without my national insurance number? Would they refuse her application based on that?? Does anybody know, maybe you have already applied and it has gone through? Or hasn't?

It's only been three weeks since the new forms were introduced, so I haven't had much luck finding a concrete answer..

Please help!!

The main problem I see with what you post is that the VAF4 is not the correct form ... unless you have PR status ... which I doubt, as you do not have a NI number.

In what way are you exercising your EU Treaty Rights in the UK? Employed? Self-employed? And for how long have you been exercising your EU Treaty Rights in the UK?

My partner is currently with me

Partner? Is that registered Civil Partner (same sex)? Or if not, how long have the two of you been living together?

I am wondering whether the VAF5 form for EEA Family Permit might be the correct form? But look forward to reading your answers to my questions above.

Hi John,

Thank you for your reply.. I am currently employed and I am about to receive my registration certificate, which as far as I know is sufficient if you are an EEA citizen (meaning you don't need PR in that case).

We arrived together as tourists and I started working about 4 months ago. I have the appointment to obtain my NI number at the end of December..

We are planning on registering our civil partnership as soon as we can, but first Eugenia has to return to the US to apply for entry clearance. Unfortunately, although we've been together for almost 6 years and continuously living together the whole time, I had overstayed my (tourist) visa in the US, so none of the bills were in my name and I wasn't really on any of our leases either.. so we cannot prove our prior cohabitation (which I know would be more than sufficient for the EEA family permit) so that is why we have to wait and go the VAF4 route, otherwise she would have been able to come with me as my family member already 5 months ago when we first arrived. Beaurocracy

Regarding your answer about permanent residence.. again, as far as I know that isn't a requirement for EEA nationals, since we have an implied residence permit. The only thing that I know for sure is that you do need the registration certificate and until three weeks ago (!!!) we could have done it without the NI number, but now I am not so sure and nobody seems to know because it hasn't been long enough..

I apologize for this convoluted post by the way

Thanks again!!

Mischa

Mischa, what you post is very helpful and informative, but it causes a problem. Given that you have been in the UK exercising EU Treaty Rights for only 4 months you are not seemed to be "settled" in the UK. Accordingly it is not possible for your partner to apply for a settlement visa using UK immigration law. Had you already been exercising EU treaty rights in the UK for at least 5 years then you would (automatically) have PR status, and if that was the case your partner could have been using form VAF4 to apply for a Proposed Civil Partner visa.

So is an EEA Family Permit possible? It is if it can be shown that the two of you are in a "durable relationship". The unfortunate fact is that the UK currently interprets that as being together for at least 2 years. I feel sure that sooner or later someone will challenge that interpretation of "durable relationship", which unhelpfully is not defined in the EU regulations.

But the two of you have been together for 6 years, but might have a problem proving that. I think you need to give further thought as to what evidence you can gather, about the living together and being in a durable relationship.

My recommendation would be .... your partner should indeed make an application for an EEA Family Permit .. presenting what evidence you can provide. The good news is that the application cost for an EEA Family Permit is .... nothing ... thanks to EU regulations. In other words, it will not cost anything to test this out.

If that does not work, an alternative would be to enter into a Civil Partnership (the local equivalent thereof) outside the UK, and then make another application for an EEA Family Permit, But this time as a "family member" rather than an "extended family member" .... a safer route.

A final point .... you overstayed your US visa so might have real problems getting into the US for a number of years. However, I think Canada has some sort of Civil Partner legislation .... but not sure exactly what it is called.

ok, now i am really confused.. we have been planning this for so long and we have asked several authorities & consulted forums like this one and we were going to do this (back then) with the VAF2 form for settlement.. did the laws change???

Please take the time to read this and tell me if I am missing something.

Here is what I've gathered from the ukvisas site:

You can apply to join your husband, wife, civil partner, fiancé, fiancée or proposed civil partner in the UK as long as:

* they currently live and are settled in the UK, or
* they are coming to live permanently in the UK, and
* they are not under 18

What does 'present and settled' mean?

‘Settled’ means being allowed to live in the UK lawfully, with no time limit on your stay. 'Present and settled' means that the person concerned is settled in the UK and, at the time we are considering your application under the Immigration Rules, is in the UK or is coming here with you, or to join you and plans to live with you in the UK if your application is successful.

You must get a visa before you travel to the UK as a husband, wife, civil partner, fiancé, fiancée, proposed civil partner, or unmarried or same-sex partner.

The rules for going to the UK are different if you or your husband, wife or civil partner (your 'sponsor') are a national of another member state of the European Economic Area (EEA) or Switzerland. EEA members are the member states of the European Union, plus Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein. See our EEA and Swiss Nationals guidance for more information.

note how it doesn't say the rules will be different for 'proposed civil partner'

Then, when I read on in the guidance section for EEA nationals:

Do I need to apply for a registration certificate or register with the police?

No. If you have the right to live in the UK, you can stay here for as long as you want without getting a registration certificate, or registering with the police.

You can apply to the Border and Immigration Agency for a registration certificate. A registration certificate simply confirms that you have the right to live in the UK under European Community law.

back to "present and settled" : means that there is no time limit on your stay... doesn't that mean this would apply for me??

It also says:

Registration certificates have no expiry date.

Now here is a long paragraph, again from the EEA nationals guidance section:

Can my family members join me in the UK?
Yes. If you have the right to live in the UK your family members can join you.

Under European Community law, your family members include the following:

* Your husband, wife or civil partner.
* Your children or the children of your husband, wife or civil partner (including adopted children). Children over 21 must be dependent on you or your husband, wife or civil partner.
* Your parents and grandparents or the parents and grandparents of your husband, wife or civil partner. Parents and grandparents must be dependent on you or your husband, wife or civil partner.

Your extended family members, such as brothers, sisters and cousins, do not have an automatic right to live with you in the UK. However, we will consider applications for your other relatives to join you if you are a qualified person in the UK and:

* they are dependent on you, or
* they were a member of your household in an EEA member state, or
* they meet the requirements of the Immigration Rules for other dependent family members (see our Family members guidance)

Unmarried partners are also considered as extended family members. We will consider applications for unmarried partners to join you if you are a qualified person in the UK and they meet the requirements of the Immigration Rules for unmarried partners (see our Husbands, wives and partners guidance).

note how again it doesn't mention 'propsed civil partners' as extended family members.

I am assuming 'unmarried partners' and 'proposed civil partners' is not the same thing, as we are not planning on remaining simply 'partners', but actually entering into a civil partnership.

Anyone?

Thank you so much!

Mischa

Present and settled"? You will not be "settled" in the UK until you have PR status, after 5 years in the UK.

And the guidance you quotes for family members, it makes it clear that such applications need to be under EU/EEA law, whilst you seem to think it gives you rights under UK immigration law. I really cannot see how the form VAF4 is in play here.

I am just one person here and it is totally possible that I am overlooking something. Other opinions very welcome.

John wrote:And the guidance you quotes for family members, it makes it clear that such applications need to be under EU/EEA law, whilst you seem to think it gives you rights under UK immigration law. I really cannot see how the form VAF4 is in play here.

I agree with John. The OP should try an application under EU law. I understand that your history is a bit difficult, but you can use many kinds of evidence for cohabitation.

mischa,

If you have not been in the UK for five continuous years, you do not have 'settled' status, meaning you do not have permanent residency and thus you cannot apply for your partner (please confirm that it is a same-sex relationship) to join you in the UK using the UK immigration routes and application forms. You need the PR status to use the UK's routes. So when did you first enter the UK to exercise treaty rights (date)...

Your only chance for her to join you is via the EEA family permits visa. I think you need a different form for this application (although it is free).

If you want to use the unmarried partner's route...since you aren't married/in a civil partnership, then you need documentary proof of co-habitation for two full years (continuous). If you have anything from the USA - bills, bank statements, etc, and probably wage slips, that'll help. If you don't have anything...it'll be hard to prove anything.

Also...did you overstay in the USA for 6 whole years? If so, you've probably been banned from re-entry for 5+ years, even as a tourist.

Mischa, regrettably for you, others are agreeing with my comments.

In case you are going to register a Civil Partnership outside the UK, click here to get a list of the "recognised overseas same sex relationships" that the UK authorities recognise as equivalent to a UK Civil Partnership. You will see that Canada, and a couple of Canadian Provinces, are on that list.

The plan would be to register, for example, a marriage in Canada, and then your partner will be qualified to apply for an EEA Family Permit, as your "family member".

ok, i am really hoping that it is all of you who are misinformed.. here is a few paragraphs directly from the ind's homepage, which can be found here:

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/lawand ... ules/part8

Fiancé(e)s and proposed civil partners

289AA. Nothing in these Rules shall be construed as permitting a person to be granted entry clearance, leave to enter or variation of leave as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner if either the applicant or the sponsor will aged under 18 on the date of arrival of the applicant in the United Kingdom or (as the case may be) on the date on which the leave to enter or variation of leave would be granted.

Requirements for leave to enter the United Kingdom as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner (i.e. with a view to marriage and permanent settlement in the United Kingdom)

290. The requirements to be met by a person seeking leave to enter the United Kingdom as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner are that:

(i) the applicant is seeking leave to enter the United Kingdom for marriage or civil partnership to a person present and settled in the United Kingdom or who is on the same occasion being admitted for settlement; and

(ii) the parties to the proposed marriage or civil partnership have met; and

(iii) each of the parties intends to live permanently with the other as his or her spouse or civil partner after the marriage or civil partnership ; and

(iv) adequate maintenance and accommodation without recourse to public funds will be available for the applicant until the date of the marriage or civil partnership ; and

(v) there will, after the marriage or civil partnership, be adequate accommodation for the parties and any dependants without recourse to public funds in accommodation which they own or occupy exclusively; and

(vi) the parties will be able after the marriage or civil partnership to maintain themselves and any dependants adequately without recourse to public funds; and

(vii) the applicant holds a valid United Kingdom entry clearance for entry in this capacity.

290A. For the purposes of paragraph 290 and paragraphs 291 - 295, an EEA national who holds a registration certificate or a document certifying permanent residence issued under the 2006 EEA Regulations (including an EEA national who holds a residence permit issued under the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2000 which is treated as if it were such a certificate or document by virtue of Schedule 4 to the 2006 EEA Regulations) is to be regarded as present and settled in the United Kingdom.

Leave to enter as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner

291. A person seeking leave to enter the United Kingdom as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner may be admitted, with a prohibition on employment, for a period not exceeding 6 months to enable the marriage to take place provided a valid United Kingdom entry clearance for entry in this capacity is produced to the Immigration Officer on arrival.

Refusal of leave to enter as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner

292. Leave to enter the United Kingdom as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner is to be refused if a valid United Kingdom entry clearance for entry in this capacity is not produced to the Immigration Officer on arrival.

Requirements for an extension of stay as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner

293. The requirements for an extension of stay as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner are that:

(i) the applicant was admitted to the United Kingdom with a valid United Kingdom entry clearance as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner; and

(ii) good cause is shown why the marriage or civil partnership did not take place within the initial period of leave granted under paragraph 291; and

(iii) here is satisfactory evidence that the marriage or civil partnership will take place at an early date; and

(iv) he requirements of paragraph 290 (ii)-(vi) are met.

Extension of stay as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner

294. An extension of stay as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner may be granted for an appropriate period with a prohibition on employment to enable the marriage or civil partnership to take place provided the Secretary of State is satisfied that each of the requirements of paragraph 293 is met.

Refusal of extension of stay as a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner

295. An extension of stay is to be refused if the Secretary of State is not satisfied that each of the requirements of paragraph 293 is met.

and so forth...


anyways, the important part is highlighted in red!

"holds a registration certificate OR document certifying permanent residence"

any thoughts?

Yes. As has been said, I am afraid that you don't hold permanent residence, as you have not been here for 5 years. This means that you cannot make this application under UK law, you must use EEA law. The whole thing has been further confused because until a few weeks ago it was the same forms.


You may need to rethink things a little. If you want to send me an e-mail tomorrow I am happy to go through things with you.

Victoria

Hi again,

Thanks.. I know I am not a permanent resident.. but what about the paragraph where it says "holds a registration certificate" - does that no longer apply??

mischa, I kind of agree with you and admire your determination to see it through as well. There is the option for you to apply under the UK rules as well. But it is only for the Fiance/Proposed civil Partner visa. Just give me time to dig up that information.

Here is the interpretation needed for you to apply for the Proposed Civil Partner visa under the UK immigration rules wich is based on the rule that you had highlighted earlier. The problem is that, it is only during this stage that you will considered to be present and settled and for subsequent applications you will have to use the EEA route.

Fiancés/fiancées and proposed civil partners are not recognised under EC law. However, the UK amended the Immigration Rules in 2002 to allow fiancés/fiancées and proposed civil partners of EEA nationals to enter the UK under the Fiancé(e) Rules. For the purpose of these provisions, we would consider and EEA national to be "present and settled" if they were a qualified person in the UK.

A family permit should not be issued to the fiancés/fiancées or proposed civil partner of an EEA national. They would need to apply for the relevant entry clearance

Hi all,

wow.. thank you again everybody for your input..

Thank you Docterror, I would appreciate any info.

off topic: what is the gay&lesbian equivalent of "engaged".. when I tell people we are going to register a civil partnership I usually say we are getting "civilized" (civilised/civilized??)

anyways, yes we are planning on registering a CP - it's been so long that I even forgot who proposed first

mischa wrote:Hi again,

Thanks.. I know I am not a permanent resident.. but what about the paragraph where it says "holds a registration certificate" - does that no longer apply??

You need to read that paragraph again. Your certificate would not have been issued under the 2000 regulations because those were phased out in 2006.

So yours would have been issued under the 2006 regulations, and in those regulations, you need 5 years residence in order to acquire permanent resident status. The same regulations will allow you, however, to import a fiance or proposed civil partner.

transpondia wrote:

mischa wrote:Hi again,

Thanks.. I know I am not a permanent resident.. but what about the paragraph where it says "holds a registration certificate" - does that no longer apply??

You need to read that paragraph again. Your certificate would not have been issued under the 2000 regulations because those were phased out in 2006.

So yours would have been issued under the 2006 regulations, and in those regulations, you need 5 years residence in order to acquire permanent resident status. And hence the provisions of UK immigration law are not available to you.

transpondia, I am sorry not sure that I understand how you came forth to such a conclusion. Holders of Registration Certificate do not need 5 years of exercising treaty rights and can yet use the UK immigration rules!

Docterror wrote:

transpondia wrote:

mischa wrote:Hi again,
transpondia, I am sorry not sure that I understand how you came forth to such a conclusion. Holders of Registration Certificate do not need 5 years of exercising treaty rights and can yet use the UK immigration rules!

The registration certificate does not bestow permanent residence. His access to UK immigration law is through statutory instrument. I agree that he can import a pcp, but *NOT* because of permanent residence.

Thanks for the clarification. I think that the OP is herself aware that the Registration Certificate is not proof of Permanent Residence and never claims as such. She is only concerned about her access to the UK route, period. And a Registration Certificate provides it.

[Edit: I have just noticed that you had changed the answer from "So yours would have been issued under the 2006 regulations, and in those regulations, you need 5 years residence in order to acquire permanent resident status. And hence the provisions of UK immigration law are not available to you." to "So yours would have been issued under the 2006 regulations, and in those regulations, you need 5 years residence in order to acquire permanent resident status. The same regulations will allow you, however, to import a fiance or proposed civil partner." ]

Docterror wrote:The OP is herself aware that the Registration [Edit: I have just noticed that you had changed the answer from "So yours would have been issued under the 2006 regulations, and in those regulations, you need 5 years residence in order to acquire permanent resident status. And hence the provisions of UK immigration law are not available to you." to "So yours would have been issued under the 2006 regulations, and in those regulations, you need 5 years residence in order to acquire permanent resident status. The same regulations will allow you, however, to import a fiance or proposed civil partner." ]

Yes, I thought it was saying that he could not import a pcp, so I changed it.

Let's be clear...

An EEA national who has been issued with a RESIDENCE PERMIT that is valid for five years will, for the purposes of the fiance rules, be treated as 'present and settled' in the UK even though they have not actually be granted settlement. The fiance of such a person can then be granted lleave to enter in exactly the same way as other fiance cases. Entry clearance must be obtained. Once the couple have married and provided the EEA national spouse is exercising free-movement rights, the applicant can then be treated as the FAMILY MEMBER of an EEA national, and granted a residence document showing that they are exercising rights of free movement.

This does not arise under UK immigration law, but rather through statutory instrument. And it is the residence permit which enables this.

mischa wrote: off topic: what is the gay&lesbian equivalent of "engaged".. when I tell people we are going to register a civil partnership I usually say we are getting "civilized" (civilised/civilized??)

A male couple I know used "engayged"

avjones wrote:
A male couple I know used "engayged"

engayged, i love that!!

but back to what Jabi posted:

Fiancés/fiancées and proposed civil partners are not recognised under EC law. However, the UK amended the Immigration Rules in 2002 to allow fiancés/fiancées and proposed civil partners of EEA nationals to enter the UK under the Fiancé(e) Rules. For the purpose of these provisions, we would consider and EEA national to be "present and settled" if they were a qualified person in the UK.

A family permit should not be issued to the fiancés/fiancées or proposed civil partner of an EEA national. They would need to apply for the relevant entry clearance

here's a definition from the www.ukvisas.gov.uk website:

Annex 21.2 "Qualified Person" checklist

Provided his/her stay in the UK does not exceed three months, an EEA national is not
required to exercise a Treaty right (for example by working). An EEA national who will
be in the UK for more than three months will have a right of residence for as long as
he/she remains a qualified person (see Regulation 6 of the Regulations) i.e. exercising
a Treaty Right in the UK.

Under the Regulations, "qualified person" means a person who is an EEA national and in
the UK as any of the following:

21.2.1 Jobseeker
Does the applicant have evidence that the EEA national is seeking employment and has a
genuine chance of being engaged?

21.2.2 Worker
Does the applicant have evidence that the EEA national is or will be working in the UK
(for example a copy of contract, pay slips etc)?

Important: A worker does not cease to be a qualified person solely because they are
temporarily incapable of work as a result of accident or illness or if they are involuntarily
unemployed.

21.2.3 Self-employed person
Does the applicant have evidence that the EEA national is, or will be, in the UK as a
self-employed person (for example a copy of business accounts or accountant’s letter)?

Important: A self-employed person does not cease to be a qualified person solely
because they are temporarily incapable of work as a result of accident or illness or if
they are involuntarily unemployed.

21.2.4 Self-sufficent person
Does the applicant have evidence that the EEA national has sufficient resources not to
become a burden on the social assistance system during his/her period of residence in
the UK?

You can ask those questions which lead you to be satisfied that the EEA national has
sufficient means to fund the visit (for example their intended duration, what services
they are going to receive and whether from this that they have sufficient funds for their
stay). This would need to be done on an individual basis, and you could not refuse
someone simply on the grounds that they were not able to provide 3 months’ bank
statements. The fact that an EEA national was economically active at the time of
application would normally be sufficient to satisfy the resource condition. As an EEA
national could decide to exercise some other form of Treaty right once he/she is in the
UK it would not be appropriate to refuse on the ground that you were not satisfied that
the person would leave the UK after the visit.

21.2.5 Student Does the applicant have evidence that the EEA national will be studying
in the UK (a letter from a college or university confirming that the EEA national is enrolled
on a course and its duration? Where an applicant says that their EEA national family
member is already in or will be coming to the UK as a student you may ask adequate
questions in order to ascertain that there are sufficient resources available to support
the EEA national and his/her family members throughout their stay (in other words the
duration of the course). However, you should be flexible on this, as some students may
intend to live with relatives.

anyways, it seems I am a "qualified person"

Again, please correct me if I am missing something..

You are a 'qulaified person' but you are not yet 'settled'.

Transpondia has saved me the time of looking up all thie links - I agree 100 per cent with him. The fiancee route is open to you because of the statutory instrument, but this does nto mean that you will be considered settled.

Garry - I assume there is no fee for this?

Victoria

The fiancee route is open to you because of the statutory instrument, but this does nto mean that you will be considered settled

Victoria, the EEA national IS considered settled due to the statutory instrument for such applications while in all actuality they are not! Unfortunately there is a fees levied for such applications and will have to be paid even though they are family members of EEA nationals as the EU route does not recognise the particular visa.

Mischa, you are not missing anything and you are a qualified person. Keep up the good work in interpretting it the right way!