VAF4 without national insurance number?

AN EEA national who has not been int he UK for 5 years cannot use UK law for immigration purposes (other than this application for the fiancee visa).

Victoria

Yes. As mentioned in my first post in the thread, only Fiance/PCP visa for EEA route's applicants can be done under the UK immigration rules.

Thanks again!!

The proposed civil partner visa (via VAF4) is the only one I am concerned about. It really doesn't matter to me whether or not I am considered 'settled' for anything else.. that was my original question, can my partner join me here in the UK and can she apply using form VAF4.

Actually, my original question was: Do I need a national insurance number to sponsor her? The old form (VAF2) didn't require it at all. The new form (VAF4) has a section (6.9.) where it asks for the sponsor's NI number.

Again, I have an appointment to obtain it.. does anybody know if that is sufficient?? Victoria, thank you very much for your email regarding this issue... you said that it 'should be okay' - well, if my girlfriend's application gets denied then that wouldn't be okay, as we would probably have to pay the fee again - please correct me if I am wrong.

Again, thank you very very much to everyone who responded.. thank you for your time & efforts.. however, I just would like to say to John et al. who disagreed with me.. did you even read my post? I know I didn't specify in my original post that she was my 'proposed civil partner' (because actually, as I said, my question was really whether or not the application would/could go through without actually having a national insurance number), but I did confirm in the next post therafter. I know you were just trying to help, but in fact you really confused me..

As I said before, we have been planning this move for years now and I have done my research.. my poor girlfriend was freaking out!! We thought the laws had changed..

So, in a nutshell.. it is still correct that as an EEA national exercising my treaty rights I CAN INDEED SPONSOR MY PROPOSED CIVIL PARTNER AND SHE CAN APPLY USING FORM VAF4 because I am considered "present & settled" for the sole purpose of sponsoring my proposed civil partner, and I do not need to be a permanent resident. Right?

I just want to clarify that for all others who may read this thread, so they don't have to end up on the verge of a nervous breakdown like I (almost) did.

et al. who disagreed with me.. did you even read my post?

mischa, there is fine line between steely determination and brutish thuggishness and I feel you have made a cross onto the other side. John's contribution and attitude in this forum is never a topic for debate and many a time he has quite rightly corrected applicants from making mistakes before they apply. To the best of his knowledge and others, he informed you not wanting you to make any mistakes and even left room for corrections.

These areas tend to be specialist areas and do not forget that even an Immigration Consultant can sometimes get it wrong. So, pipe down.

Since these are new forms, no one can categorically tell you what is required. But as far as the NI number is concerned, it is impossible to fathom an application failing just because of the lack of it, when every other document is in order. The safest way to not fail in an application is to not apply at all. The next best way is what we help here for.

Spot on Mischa,

Instead of being told about statutory instruments, all you needed to confirm is that you can sponsor your partner for a VAF4 application subject to having a registration certificate. Your partner's future visa applications within the UK will then be made under the EU route (EEA2/EEA4).

As for the National Insurance question, although there is a box (6.9.1) specifically for the NI number, your partner will be applying in 6.1.1 as the PCP of "someone settled, or going to settle, in the UK", so there is, by implication IMO, an acceptance that the sponsor may not yet have an NI number. Moreover, in reality a NI number is not proof of itself that you have a job. Section 6.9 of the form seems to be more widely intended to allow an assessment of whether the sponsor is capable of supporting the applicant if required.

It's a worry that the one person who advertises a qualification on this thread 1. initially gave the impression you couldn't sponsor and 2. when told you could, thought your partner wouldn't have to pay for it.

Good on you for following it through so thoroughly ! And hope it all goes well.

Koryo wrote:As for the National Insurance question, although there is a box (6.9.1) specifically for the NI number, your partner will be applying in 6.1.1 as the PCP of "someone settled, or going to settle, in the UK", so there is, by implication IMO, an acceptance that the sponsor may not yet have an NI number.

Indeed. The requirement is that you have income, and not that you have a national insurance number. So if you don't have one, that cannot be held against you.

And I am sorry that the thread got a bit lengthy. I think this conclusion could have come much earlier, but it was an interesting thread non the less.

It's a worry that the one person who advertises a qualification on this thread 1. initially gave the impression you couldn't sponsor and 2. when told you could, thought your partner wouldn't have to pay for it.

The UK immigration law is incredible complex, so I would not hold it against anyone to get it wrong. It is not just the amount of legislation and precedences, but also the continuous redefinition of terms, the way it all interacts, and the debate on whether a certain interaction was intended or just happened by mistake... Even (or especially?) the Home Office seems to be caught in this complexity more often then you would expect.

oh my goodness, brutish thuggishness?

i really didn't mean to offend anyone!! i really do appreciate that john and everybody else took the time to respond to my questions (and all the many questions posted on this forum & other forums, you have been ever so helpful)

it's just that john explicitly stated that it was impossible for my proposed civil partner to apply using form VAF4 - which, I'm sorry, is completely wrong! and even after i further explained what i was basing this on and cited the actual laws that support that notion, he said that my post was "causing a problem" and that i was misinformed, which caused me some major distress...

ok maybe I am wrong, but it just seems to me that he didn't take the time to really read my post(s) or check into the facts i provided, and seeing that he is a moderator of this forum i became extremely worried that I was wrong, especially as more and more people were agreeing with him.

John et al. please accept my apology if you feel like I have crossed the line.. again, I want to thank all of you for your time and dedication!! Your contributions to this forum are truly admirable.

Regarding Koryo's post:

your partner wouldn't have to pay for it.

Actually, John was right about the EEA family permit being free of charge. It's just that you would need to prove 2 years prior cohabitation, i.e. joint bank accounts, rental agreements, utility bills etc..

and i agree with thsths, this has been a most interesting thread indeed

Jabi, you were the one person that gave me hope & for that i thank you!

yours truly,

mischa a.k.a. 'brutish thug'

mischa wrote: So, in a nutshell.. it is still correct that as an EEA national exercising my treaty rights I CAN INDEED SPONSOR MY PROPOSED CIVIL PARTNER AND SHE CAN APPLY USING FORM VAF4 because I am considered "present & settled" for the sole purpose of sponsoring my proposed civil partner, and I do not need to be a permanent resident. Right?

This text, with all its caveats, is precisely correct.

Your certificate functions as a residence permit for the purposes of p290 and bringing in a pcp. Outside of the context of the fiance application, you will not have permanent residence.

An entry clearance is required. The application attracts a fee.

The procedure for appeals differs from those using UK law but that has not been brought up in the thread. Additionally the right to work for a fiance entering under p290 wasn't brought up.

Once 'married', you enter the family permit scheme.

Your partner is on the 5 year track, and not the 2 year track.

An entry clearance is required. The application attracts a fee.

What I don't understand in all this is that no consideration appears to be being given to getting "married" outside the UK, and thus cutting out the circa £500 fee for applying for a Proposed Civil Partner visa. Earlier in this topic I posted a link to a list of the ceremonies that the UK considers equivalent to a UK Civil Partnership.

If indeed such a ceremony is entered into, it would be possible for the non-EEA partner to apply immediately for a (free) EEA Family Permit.

Mischa, until 2000 I knew absolutely nothing about immigration matters, but then I met my (now) wife, and there was a little matter of applying for a spouse visa! The strength of Boards such as this is that we all come from at least a slightly different background, and thus have different experiences and different processes that we need to go through. To my knowledge the point you have so successfully made in this topic has never been raised before, so getting it recorded now so openly is not only helping you, but others following down the same path at a later date.

So thank you for raising this issue.

transpondia wrote:Your certificate functions as a residence permit for the purposes of p290 and bringing in a pcp.

Is a certificate held? Isn't it the case that simply because EU Treaty Rights are being exercised in the UK, in accordance with the EU regulations that came into force on 30.04.06, there is no longer an obligation for an EU Citizen to use form EEA1 to apply for a Residence Permit. They came if they want, but any such Permit is merely confirmatory. It gives no additional rights.

I think John makes a good point about entering a recognised equivalent of a CP abroad, but where could this be done between an Austrian national, presumably on a visitors visa and a US citizen (if the partner is a US citizen) ?

Mischa looks like she would have a problem getting back into the US due to her previous immigration history, so it would presumably have to be somewhere else.

UK allows two foreign visitors, even two non EU visitors to register a CP, via a CP visit visa. Does any other country allow that ?

Hi John,

there is no longer an obligation for an EU Citizen to use form EEA1 to apply for a Residence Permit

While that is true, it IS a requirement to obtain this registration certificate (formerly called a residence permit) for the purpose of importing a fiance(e) or proposed civil partner.

Here is a paragraph from the ukvisas website, which can be found here:

What supporting documents should I include with my application?
You should include all the documents you can to show that you qualify for entry as a husband, wife, civil partner, fiancé, fiancée, proposed civil partner, or unmarried or same-sex partner. If you do not, we may refuse your application.

As a guide, you should include the following:

* Your original birth certificate.

* Your original marriage certificate (if you are married) or your original civil partnership certificate (if you have registered a civil partnership).

* Recent bank statements or savings books for your sponsor and evidence of your sponsor's employment in the UK, which could include payslips to show what financial support you have.

*) Evidence of your accommodation, such as a mortgage agreement or rental agreement, and evidence that you and your dependants can stay in this accommodation if it is rented or provided by your local authority.

*) Letters from you and your sponsor that are relevant to your application.

*) If you have been married or in a civil partnership before, one of the following original documents:

a divorce certificate
a final dissolution order, or
your or your sponsor's previous husband's, wife's or civil partner's death certificate

*) Evidence that your sponsor is settled in the UK. (This can be a copy of their passport or registration certificate that has been confirmed as a true copy, in other words 'certified'.)


Regarding your idea to go to any of the countries/states listed in Annex 13.6 Schedule 20, while that is of course an option it would mean that I would have to find out about a whole new set of immigration rules

Canada, for instance, has a close relationship with the US, from my friends' experience I know that they might even refuse an American citizen entry if they have too many speeding tickets - seeing that I overstayed my visa in the USA for so long I doubt that the would even let me in...

I actually looked into German immigration law a little bit, and it seems that you have to be a resident in order to register a partnership at all (but I could be wrong).

It would most certainly work and couples going this route would save the £500 and the non-EEA spouse/partner would then be considered a family member and be allowed to work right away upon entry. Yeah, that sounds good.

I just don't know which country would allow a short visit, where we don't have to spend a lot of money for the stay (mind you, I would have to take off work and already our funds - living in London - are very limited) and go through a whole lot of red tape in order to register such a partnership. Does anybody know?

Actually, the UK does have a visitor visa that allows you to register a civil partnership, it costs only £63 (however, you have to stay in the country for 22 days before you can actually have your ceremony; 7 days before you can give notice and then 15 days waiting time) - I honestly haven't taken a closer look at the other countries' rules & regulations, so I don't know what it would entail to register, say.. a rekisteröity parisuhde registrerad in Finland..

Any thoughts?

mischa, I may have come a bit too hard on you, but I felt inclined as your post felt a bit in-your-face. But with subsequent posts you have made it clear that you may not be much of a thug after all. As made clear by John, it finally boils down to different interests in the various fields of immigration and in some cases, how much ever we try, we still are human!

Now that it has been cleared, I personally think that since you intend to come to UK, it would be better to commit to registering the partnership here itself rather than go through the process of researching a different route. In the bigger view of things, the amount is not too high a fees. Had it been a marriage, I would have thought different.

John, as pointed out by mischa, a Registration Certificate is necessary for a Fiance visa application. When the first application that I helped for the fiance visa was made, I read it like you and adviced to supply for the pay slips and letter of employment instead of the Registration Certificate. But the embassy called and informed us that they were going to refuse the application for the lack of it. After having a word with the Consular, he agreed to hold the application while the EEA national went in person to Croydon and got the Certificate. Upon sending the copy, the application was approved. So, it is a necessity.

transpondia, your post does not seem to add any further information to answer a particular question and the extra information creates confusion even in my head. In fact, I am still trying to wrap my head around

You need to read that paragraph again. Your certificate would not have been issued under the 2000 regulations because those were phased out in 2006.

Who said anything about 2000 Regulations?

Anyways, this is 'Docterror' signing out!

mischa wrote:Actually, the UK does have a visitor visa that allows you to register a civil partnership, it costs only £63 (however, you have to stay in the country for 22 days before you can actually have your ceremony; 7 days before you can give notice and then 15 days waiting time)

That might be interesting. The nice thing about the EU law is that you automatically acquire the rights once the requirements are fulfilled. This means you can get into the UK on a visitor visa, and then stay based on the EU rights.

But you should check this carefully, because the UK require a Certificate of Approval for marriages and civil partnerships for non EU partners. I assume that the visa would serve as CoA, but it is worth checking.

Actually, transpondia.. the entry clearance officer would most definitely refuse the visa if there is any doubt that the non-EEA proposed civil partner will leave the UK after the initial 6 month period, i.e. we would have to go somewhere else (probably Austria) to live there for a few months and then come back to the UK under EEA law.

The CoA (which costs £295) is only used if the partners are already in the UK and mostly would be automatically refused if the visa being held by the non-EEA citizen is not valid for more than 6 months with at least 3 months remaining, so it is not an option for us, although someone has recently succesfully challenged that ("Baiai [2006 and 2007]", but I think the HO has in turn challenged the decision!!)

You can find the guidance for this certificate of approval here

There is more information here

If you apply for entry clearance using form VAF4 for settlement to register a civil partnership or get married you do not need the CoA. Once 'civilised', my partner will then have to apply for further leave to remain (unless the sponsor is a British citizen or PR) in order to be able to start working, which costs an additional £395 (for postal applications, £595 if you apply in person - which takes only one day). This must be done before the initial 6 month period on the proposed civil partner or fiance(e) visa runs out.. guidance can be found here

note how these guidances are from May 2007 and may change..

Your partner is on the 5 year track, and not the 2 year track.

That is true & IMO quite useful information posted by transpondia!

Anyways, my partner will apply using form VAF4 and we are still not sure if we should wait for my NI number, just to be safe.. we will let you know how it went!

If you apply for entry clearance using form VAF4 for settlement to register a civil partnership or get married you do not need the CoA. Once 'civilised', my partner will then have to apply for further leave to remain (unless the sponsor is a British citizen or PR) in order to be able to start working, which costs an additional £395 (for postal applications, £595 if you apply in person - which takes only one day). This must be done before the initial 6 month period on the proposed civil partner or fiance(e) visa runs out.. guidance can be found here

I think in the example above, you surely mean (if the sponsor is a British citizen or has PR)

thsths, the CP/marriage visit visa is just that, a visa to allow someone to visit UK to register a CP/marry, then leave. The visa includes the permission.

Docterror wrote:transpondia, your post does not seem to add any further information to answer a particular question and the extra information creates confusion even in my head. In fact, I am still trying to wrap my head around

Sorry you're having difficulty with it. Both ILPA and JCWI offer courses and other materials that may be helpful in understanding immigration law. If you further don't understand something, you can always visit here and ask!


And mischa, this quote here is misattributed...

Actually, transpondia.. the entry clearance officer would most definitely refuse the visa if there is any doubt that the non-EEA proposed civil partner will leave the UK after the initial 6 month period, i.e. we would have to go somewhere else (probably Austria) to live there for a few months and then come back to the UK under EEA law.

Koryo, actually no, I meant what I said.. as far as I know, once married or civilised, you have to first apply for further leave to remain UNLESS the sponsoring partner is a British citizen or PR, in which case a successful application with VAF4 already grants you the right to remain for 2 years (without the sponsor being PR or citizen it's only 6 months) and after that you could apply for indefinte leave to remain.

transpondia, yes.. I meant to say this to thsths, sorry!

And everone, thank you for this most informative & interesting discussion!!

Mischa, that really is wrong. A fiance(e)/PCP visa is never for more than 6 months and immigration status always has to be switched after marriage/CP registration, via FLRM (if the sponsor is British or has ILR/PR) or via EEA2 if the EEA sponsor only has a registration certificate.

What you say is correct if the marriage/CP/recognised legal partnership has taken place prior to the VAF4 application, in which case 2 yrs leave would be granted.

[Or, if the couple have lived together for 4 yrs outside UK, Indefinite Leave to Enter could be granted (subject to the applicant already having passed their "life in the UK" test) - giving immediate ILR on entry, no further extensions required.]

Mischa, I don't think that is right. Once you and your partner have registered your Civil Partnership she will be your "family member" as defined in the EU regulations. Thus she will have EU rights to remain in the UK.

However, that is not the end of the story. Whilst it is clear that such EU rights will exist even without completion of an EEA2 form, unless that is done, and the Residence Card obtained, she is going to struggle to prove that she has her EU rights. For example, she will find it difficult to obtain employment.

Once the form EEA2 is submitted she will get back a letter confirming the right to work in the UK, even before the application has been processed. After all the issue of the Residence Card is merely confirmatory ..... it does not actually give more rights by itself.

This website makes it pretty clear as far as CPs are concerned

http://www.uklgig.org.uk/Civil%20Partne ... rom_abroad

If the only stamp in the passport was the fiance(e)/prospective CP with a 6 month expiry, then there would presumably also be a problem trying to reenter UK later without obtaining either the registration certificate or a family permit beforehand.

d'oh!

koryo & john, of course.. you are absolutely right.. i completely missed that one.. i thought they wanted more money pretty much immediately! so, once in the Uk and 'civilised', the non-EEA partner would then apply using form EEA2 - which is free of charge! yay!!

I guess you have to send it to Croydon and the waiting time is about 1-2 months or so.

That's great news! So when does that expire? Or does the non-EEA partner simply have to remain in the UK for five years and then apply for ILR?

I should have been firmer in my e-mail.

It would be unlawful for the application to be refused because of a lack of NI number. I cannot see it being any kind of problem at all.


Victoria

The registration certificate will usually be valid up to the 5 year point. The Home office website suggests they are currently working on registration certificate applications (EEA2) submitted in November 2007 - i.e. no backlog. Can this be true ? (Sorry, I meant residence card - terminology overload - see below)

Victoria, thank you! That's excellent news.. I guess we're ready to apply then.. I got my registration certificate today after just 4 hours at the Home Offcie in Croydon (even with a delay).. celebration time!!

Koryo, if that's what the website says that should be correct, either way that could mean up to 3 weeks waiting time.. which is still pretty good.