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Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

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HarryJones
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Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by HarryJones » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:48 pm

[url=http://www.immigrationboards.com/post1309537.html#p1309537]CR001[/url] wrote: - Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:03 pm.

HMRC and HO are two different organisations with completely different criteria. What is accepted for one is often not accepted for the other.
As a member, I always agree with our moderators on this forum as we try to disseminate the right message and advice people accordingly.

However we should also be careful in the choice of our words. From the quote above, we do know that both HMRC and HO are different – but they do rely on each other for important information.

Moreover, both HMRC and HO exist under the same United Kingdom government.

Now, we all know that HO does not condone deception and therefore it is not acceptable. On the other hand if the same offence that warrants deception to HO is not being considered as deception to HMRC, then people would be forced to say that they are being deliberately deceived by the same office that disapproves of deception acts in the first instance. If HMRC discovers that some people are guilty of deception, why can’t they call it a quit for them rather encouraging them?

In a nutshell, “What is accepted for one is often not accepted for the other” is sending a wrong message that should not be accepted in a good community like we live in.
My message is not in any way accepting wrong practices in our system. So let us be careful of the message we pass across.

Plzilr
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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by Plzilr » Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:52 am

From current situation it's just two offices playing silently...

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by PSCILR » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:02 am

Well I believe when one department accepts one thing and send you all the offical documents why not other department accept it as well.

I can tell you now all these people will go to JR which HO will eventually lose because HMRC will say we accept the candidates earnings and they have paid the tax and interest owed.

Each JR cost few thousands pounds to UKBA and thats all tax payer money which will go down the drain.

I will suggest again contact your local MP as my friends already getting good help and UKBA will change their decision in AR. The grounds are simple HMRC accepts what you declared so UKBA cant raise question , if they have problem they need to talk to HMRC not applicants.

raju4u
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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by raju4u » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:39 am

The point here is that the same applicants went through the process of extensions and were never asked to update their tax affairs. Now the harsh crack down on the same people at the later stage where they have established their personal life businesses and relations are being forced to leave or give up. Who else think that it will go down that easy?

Second, if the HO wants to penalise these people at the later stage then what was the point allowing them at first. I reckon that these refusals are more political than the standard. HO is rejecting people just by following a simple rule which is if u don't tick certain boxes you know where the exit door is. But i believe many of the cases are more than ticking the boxes, just like TOIC where many people were innocent and they just caught up in the heat of the moment. There is a long legal battle ahead which will end up in costing both parties.

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by noajthan » Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:34 am

HarryJones wrote:
[url=http://www.immigrationboards.com/post1309537.html#p1309537]CR001[/url] wrote: - Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:03 pm.

HMRC and HO are two different organisations with completely different criteria. What is accepted for one is often not accepted for the other.
As a member, I always agree with our moderators on this forum as we try to disseminate the right message and advice people accordingly.

However we should also be careful in the choice of our words. From the quote above, we do know that both HMRC and HO are different – but they do rely on each other for important information.

Moreover, both HMRC and HO exist under the same United Kingdom government.

Now, we all know that HO does not condone deception and therefore it is not acceptable. On the other hand if the same offence that warrants deception to HO is not being considered as deception to HMRC, then people would be forced to say that they are being deliberately deceived by the same office that disapproves of deception acts in the first instance. If HMRC discovers that some people are guilty of deception, why can’t they call it a quit for them rather encouraging them?

In a nutshell, “What is accepted for one is often not accepted for the other” is sending a wrong message that should not be accepted in a good community like we live in.
My message is not in any way accepting wrong practices in our system. So let us be careful of the message we pass across.
In case it's not obvious the Board and the Moderators who serve this community (all volunteers) are private individuals;
we/they are in no way aligned with or representing the Home Office nor, for that matter, any wing of Government.

Ofcourse, amongst our 100,000+ members there may or may not be members of the Government &/or Civil Service ; I cannot possibly confirm or deny that.

In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.
- Benjamin Franklin.

ILR is ofcourse not a 'visa' nor a right.
It is a privileged settled status for guests in this country to aspire to.

Similarly citizenship and even a first British passport are not rights but privileges.
All privileges need to be earned (& can be removed).

Reaching one step of a ladder does not guarantee you will make it to the next one (let alone the rest of the way up).

Some members have been on their ILR journey for up to 10 years.
That is surely ample time to learn British culture and traditions, such as filing of tax returns, paying taxes on time & etc.

It should also be obvious to anyone living in a modern Westernised democracy that the system has many flaws.
A lack of joined-up thinking for one.

High-powered and entrepreneurial businessmen (often with teams of professional advisors) in any part of the world clearly need to understand the business and political climate they operate in.

How could anyone survive in business by any other way?!
Pleading ignorance and/or those who are 'innocents abroad' will simply get trampled underfoot by the competition.

Migrants and tax avoidance/evasion are both current hot potatoes, how could anyone fail to grasp these political truths?!
It is patently clear how the land lies in the prevailing geopolitical climate.

Also understand that HMRC and HO are two different government departments.
There is no guarantee of joined-up thinking or alignment between the two.
What may be acceptable to satisfy one set of legal requirements (say, tax) may not be sufficient in another area (eg immigration).

I have discovered one sign of increasing maturity is when we stop blaming our parents for our misfortunes & the way life turns out.
(I include myself in this).

I am becoming more and more convinced that this probably applies in terms of blaming HMRC & HO for tax and immigration misfortunes too.

So it should be clear that HMRC does tax - not immigration.
And the Home Office, amongst many responsibilities, does immigration.

HO clearly uses evidence of past behaviour, assessments of good character plus numerous datasources (such as HMRC records) in reaching visa & naturalisation decisions.
What may be acceptable or accepted in one jurisdiction won't necessarily fly in another.
Conclusion: be aware; plan & act accordingly; operate defensively - play it safe. Always have an exit plan.

Of the 100,000+ members of ImmigrationBoards it appears only a minority fall through the cracks and become trapped by the system.
And the types of cases being posted and reported are typically failing under 322(2), 322(5), etc.

These cases cannot be failing at the mere whim of a hard-pressed or over-worked or under-trained caseworker;
There are checks and balances so that such cases have to be referred to and reviewed by senior caseworker/s and they are also subject to a considerable burden of proof.

Political events of even the last 24 hours should remind us that the only constant in life is change.
What may have been the situation ten years ago may not be (and certainly is not) how the system works now.
And it is the Government that has the power to change the rules and shift the goalposts; especially for privileges such as the granting of ILR & citizenship & passports.

In the words of the immortal Sergeant Phil Esterhaus: "Hey, let's be careful out there".
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by love_uk1 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:21 pm

This matter is like
""A mom can forgive her son for little mistake but Dad want to punish him""

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by PSCILR » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:04 pm

Guys talk to your local MP asap. You have paid taxes to this country and ILR is your right.

If you are facing AR or JR tell your MP to sort this with ukba .. Its your MP duty to look after his constituents.

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by HarryJones » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:07 pm

noajthan wrote:
It should also be obvious to anyone living in a modern Westernised democracy that the system has many flaws.

I think you hit the point here - good.

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by noajthan » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:18 pm

Member PSCILR banned with immediate effect for repeated violation of Board T&Cs (click)
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by raju4u » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:33 pm

There have been cases in the past and present where people got penalised for something they have not done on purpose. There should always be a room for such people may be a lenient approach to their mistake. Everybody makes mistake no one is perfect even in Westernised Democracy. I am not falling in either category, but why HO's discretion is being used only against the applicants across the board just out of blue? There is more to this story and much more to come. Today these people are feeling the heat Tomorrow you could be in the similar situation would you also digest the fact of being Innocent Abroad, and pack your bags? If you interpret your Westernised Democratic values by Banning the people who disagree with you then its not hard to understand Democratic attitude. I hope I wont be banned for expressing my views in Westernised Democracy.

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by Casa » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:38 pm

The decision to ban wasn't due to disagreeing with the member's views. It followed several requests and later warnings as a result of very abusive posts and trolling, which you may not have seen as they were either later deleted by the member or by a moderator.
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by noajthan » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:41 pm

raju4u wrote:There have been cases in the past and present where people got penalised for something they have not done on purpose. There should always be a room for such people may be a lenient approach to their mistake. Everybody makes mistake no one is perfect even in Westernised Democracy. I am not falling in either category, but why HO's discretion is being used only against the applicants across the board just out of blue? There is more to this story and much more to come. Today these people are feeling the heat Tomorrow you could be in the similar situation would you also digest the fact of being Innocent Abroad, and pack your bags? If you interpret your Westernised Democratic values by Banning the people who disagree with you then its not hard to understand Democratic attitude. I hope I wont be banned for expressing my views in Westernised Democracy.
Naturally you are quite at liberty to represent your views.
That is most welcome.

By helping all to comply with Board T&Cs it means everyone has a safe environment in which to discuss such vital matters.

I (& you) enjoy rights to use the Board - we have responsibilities to the Board.
I (& you) enjoy freedom of life in UK; that is a privilege not to be taken for granted - and we have responsibilities to the powers that be that govern life in the UK.

It is not about democracy - all activity on the Board must be within the terms of the Board T&Cs (which are made clear to all from the day a member joins this community).

I can't guess why HO is proceeding along the current path - it may have something to do with recent developments across Europe.
Clearly the times they are a-changing.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by raju4u » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:51 pm

noajthan wrote:
raju4u wrote:There have been cases in the past and present where people got penalised for something they have not done on purpose. There should always be a room for such people may be a lenient approach to their mistake. Everybody makes mistake no one is perfect even in Westernised Democracy. I am not falling in either category, but why HO's discretion is being used only against the applicants across the board just out of blue? There is more to this story and much more to come. Today these people are feeling the heat Tomorrow you could be in the similar situation would you also digest the fact of being Innocent Abroad, and pack your bags? If you interpret your Westernised Democratic values by Banning the people who disagree with you then its not hard to understand Democratic attitude. I hope I wont be banned for expressing my views in Westernised Democracy.
Naturally you are quite at liberty to represent your views.
That is most welcome.

By helping all to comply with Board T&Cs it means everyone has a safe environment in which to discuss such vital matters.

It is not about democracy - all activity on the Board must be within the terms of the Board T&Cs (which are made clear to all from the day a member joins this community).


I can't guess why HO is proceeding along current path - it may have something to do with developmemnts across urope.
Clearly the times they are a-changing.
.
How many out of your 100,000+ members read the T&Cs of the board? Give me a wild guess please. How Many times you installed a software on your computer or phone by reading their T&Cs?

Yes, this was my point along the line that these are changing times and you never know when you also feel the heat and time changes for you. But changing the goalposts based on politics for people who have established their lives in this country in 10 years and telling them to pack your bags is not only unfair but does not comply with their being human rights champion claims. Please mind i am not advocating those people who cheated the system deliberately but I request the the board moderators not to tar everyone with the same brush, Let those people find the light at the end of the tunnel let it be through the immigrationboards. Thankyou

noajthan
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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by noajthan » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:58 pm

raju4u wrote:How many out of your 100,000+ members read the T&Cs of the board? Give me a wild guess please. How Many times you installed a software on your computer or phone by reading their T&Cs?

Yes, this was my point along the line that these are changing times and you never know when you also feel the heat and time changes for you. But changing the goalposts based on politics for people who have established their lives in this country in 10 years and telling them to pack your bags is not only unfair but does not comply with their being human rights champion claims. Please mind i am not advocating those people who cheated the system deliberately but I request the the board moderators not to tar everyone with the same brush, Let those people find the light at the end of the tunnel let it be through the immigrationboards. Thankyou
Well said.

Here's the thing - ignorance is ofcourse no defence.
Perhaps it is not the end of the world if you ignore forum T&Cs (until someone is banned).

But have you noticed those fiendishly-worded Declarations that applicants have to sign on every HO UKVI application form?
- all about vouching for the completeness & veracity and no misrepresentation/suppression of material facts (etc etc).
Violate those conditions and you are pretty much done for.

And everyone can live their life and manage their affairs with different degrees of recklessness or risk aversion.

Human rights is not a 'get out of jail free' card nor is it a Willie Wonka-style 'golden ticket' - I have tried to invoke HR for my own family in the past and I lost that battle. (Won the war in the end though - by taking another path).

More to the point may be how many people read the Immigration Regulations and tax regulations for the immigration journey they are on.
That is really why we are all here.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by Casa » Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:01 pm

noajthan wrote:Member PSCILR banned with immediate effect for repeated violation of Board T&Cs (click)
@raju4u In which case, do you feel that abusive/offensive posts should be permitted? Which was the issue here. :?:

The T&Cs are regularly posted in threads as a reminder for all members who may not have bothered to read them. :|
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by raju4u » Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:45 pm

what I have seen was he said something ''not abusive'' and he was banned. Anyway no point arguing I gave my take earlier, So good luck to the people who are in trouble with HO.

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by CR001 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:30 pm

raju4u wrote:what I have seen was he said something ''not abusive'' and he was banned. Anyway no point arguing I gave my take earlier, So good luck to the people who are in trouble with HO.
Yes, but you have only seen the one post in this thread, you have not had to experience or seen the abuse in other threads as the posts have been removed already.

FYI, the recent clamp down by HO and refusals re tax & income discrepancies/decepition appears to be mainly for Tier 1 General migrants, so not 'across the board' as you say.
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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by Wanderer » Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:31 pm

My view is - and I am bit of a hardliner - is people do make mistakes, and provided they've rectified their errors, paid up, interest and penalties too no problem.

However, those that have deliberately massaged their tax in order to be eligible for points for extensions, etc, are clearly guilty of deception. It's lying and cheating and should be rewarded with a refusal and removal.

And ignorance is no defence, imagine if that was an excuse, people would be literally 'getting away with murder' because "I didn't know' and 'we can do it in Belo-azibakerbijaniastan so it's not my fault'.....

Not quite the same but I've been working in Germany a bit lately, and doing a lot of driving there. Did I just go and carrying on in UK mode driving on the left etc? No. I read the rules and made sure I understood all the differences twixt here and there and made sure I knew German driving culture inside out. They drive on the right in Germany so it's a good job I checked....
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by Casa » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:20 pm

Whew Wanderer! Thought for one moment there you were going to say you picked up a speeding fine! :shock:
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by CR001 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:24 pm

Casa wrote:Whew Wanderer! Thought for one moment there you were going to say you picked up a speeding fine! :shock:
Yea, on the autobahn!! :lol:
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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by Wanderer » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:34 pm

CR001 wrote:
Casa wrote:Whew Wanderer! Thought for one moment there you were going to say you picked up a speeding fine! :shock:
Yea, on the autobahn!! :lol:
Well!!!

My partner who was with me did! In Chemnitz, after she managed to top 200km/hr on the Autobahn, I was frozen with fear so no photographic proof, we left the Autobahn and entered Chemnitz (absolute shit-hole) immediately hit a 60km/hr stretch, flash, flash! I glance at the speedo and it said 60, so she wasn't doing much more, suspect we'll be ok bit if worst comes to worst, speeding is the big sin it is here, prolly be a 25€ fine and that's it.

She'd lost it by then though, ending up driving through a massive tram-only station/stop and then going wrong way down an 'Einfarht' - i.e. one-way street.

Don't go to Chemnitz....
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by CR001 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:54 pm

Wanderer wrote:managed to top 200km/hr on the Autobahn, I was frozen with fear
GULP.......I would be frozen with fear too!!! Talk about 'life flashing in front of your eyes'!! :shock:
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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by raju4u » Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:05 pm

raju4u wrote:
noajthan wrote:
raju4u wrote:There have been cases in the past and present where people got penalised for something they have not done on purpose. There should always be a room for such people may be a lenient approach to their mistake. Everybody makes mistake no one is perfect even in Westernised Democracy. I am not falling in either category, but why HO's discretion is being used only against the applicants across the board just out of blue? There is more to this story and much more to come. Today these people are feeling the heat Tomorrow you could be in the similar situation would you also digest the fact of being Innocent Abroad, and pack your bags? If you interpret your Westernised Democratic values by Banning the people who disagree with you then its not hard to understand Democratic attitude. I hope I wont be banned for expressing my views in Westernised Democracy.
Naturally you are quite at liberty to represent your views.
That is most welcome.

By helping all to comply with Board T&Cs it means everyone has a safe environment in which to discuss such vital matters.

It is not about democracy - all activity on the Board must be within the terms of the Board T&Cs (which are made clear to all from the day a member joins this community).


I can't guess why HO is proceeding along current path - it may have something to do with developmemnts across urope.
Clearly the times they are a-changing.
.
How many out of your 100,000+ members read the T&Cs of the board? Give me a wild guess please. How Many times you installed a software on your computer or phone by reading their T&Cs?

Yes, this was my point along the line that these are changing times and you never know when you also feel the heat and time changes for you. But changing the goalposts based on politics for people who have established their lives in this country in 10 years and telling them to pack your bags is not only unfair but does not comply with their being human rights champion claims. Please mind i am not advocating those people who cheated the system deliberately but I request the the board moderators not to tar everyone with the same brush, Let those people find the light at the end of the tunnel let it be through the immigrationboards. Thankyou
In case you have missed what I said earlier that I am not advocating those who cheated deliberately, Clearly written in my previous post. So after today's discussion one thing is for sure that people who drove cars in Germany are the only ones who understand the rules in UK and rest are from Belo-azibakerbijaniastan, Thanks for the clarification I made a note for my future reference. Playing saint is quite a fun isn't it.

As I said there are cases in past where people were penalised across the board, Does HSMP JR ruling rings a bell? Someone I know spent 10 years as a student and he was asked to bring his SA302s. Another geezer on this forum owed nothing to In Land but was refused as his self-assessment was not filed but paid full taxes throughout the years and was no revenue loss to the In-Land. Anyway no point continuing this argument.

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Re: Immigration issues, HMRC and HO.

Post by Casa » Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:21 pm

I really don't think this thread is going anywhere apart from around in circles. The OP is no longer contributing and it seems to have run it's course.
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

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