New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

357mag wrote:This amendment only affects a couple of hundred so its a bit petty, will it greatly reduce immigration numbers? I don't think so. I think it was stuck in to appease the Home Office after they got whupped on a couple of court cases, just my view.

Actually, it will inconvenience a great many people, even if it didn't have much effect on immigration. If I were to work in the Netherlands for a year and take my non-EU wife with me, and OR is OR, would she have to pass a test in Dutch? There seem to be quite a few expatriates in Thailand who take their Thai wives on trips to the EU (but not home country), confident that visas will not be refused.

Richard W wrote: In 1968, the nearest thing to a British Citizen was two groups - a Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC) with a passport issued by the British Government or whose passport would be issued by the British Government, as opposed to a colonial government, and those who later became patrials. The CUKCs had already been separated by the 1962 act - those who could freely move to the UK (the first group), and those who couldn't.

The 1968 act further divided the first group.

I accepted that. The purpose of the 1968 act was to stop Keyan' s fleeing the repression of Amin in Uganda from coming to the UK, so the government limit the rights to people whose parents or grand parents were born in the United or colonies from entry.

This was to stop the 200000 people from entry. It was nothing more than racially motivated ploy .

My point is the UK cannot do that with the EU. The UK will be at the mercy of the EU . Cameron will invoke article 50 and after 2 years of its invocation, the UK will cease to have access to the single market unless other agreements are negotiated, until them the UK will still be a member of the EU and will be required to give effect to community law in its entirety .

For UK to remove eu citizen or repeal the 1972 act will be unimaginable , when they most likely will be seeking an extension, as no trade agreement can be signed within 2 years.

357mag wrote: I'm of a similar stance to Obie when it come to whether there should be borders.

We live in a global world were there is little restriction on movement of Labour, capital, services.

The ideas on an inward country locked within itself is unimaginable.

The are about 1.5 million British in the EU , and the number of British expatriates in the world far out numbers the figures you quoted.

As Cameron correctly conceded, the idea that Freemovement can be curtailed is aloof. Even if UK left the EU, Freemovement will continue.

I believe given the issue with Gibraltar , Northern Ireland , Scotland , and the economic devastation which has already started, I have of the view that the UK has more on its plate than the EU.

No wonder Mr Cameron looked so anxious today.

I have not seen one detailed plan on the transition from the EU, that is because there is none.

All those advocating leave, have not designed any plan has to how life will be managed out of the EU.

Cant find the quote now SS, unlike you I don't keep tabs on where all these links are it was in some paper at the time they were complaining about all the Bulgarians that might come over here. But this one is similar.
https://euobserver.com/social/123066

Yes Obie I just saw a figure of 1 in 10 Brits live abroad in the whole world.

Obie wrote:For UK to remove eu citizen or repeal the 1972 act will be unimaginable

Obie wrote:The ideas on an inward country locked within itself is unimaginable.

Given that I had already imagined it and that you had articulated opposition to it, it is not unimaginable. Indeed, I would encourage people to imagine it and think of its consequences.

Obie wrote:We live in a global world were there is little restriction on movement of Labour, capital, services.

Labour. Even understand the need of labour's immediate/nuclear family, but not labour's extended family.

Obie wrote:I have not seen one detailed plan on the transition from the EU, that is because there is none.

All those advocating leave, have not designed any plan has to how life will be managed out of the EU.

I agree. That is because the EU's reaction to an actual vote for Brexit needs to be seen.

I listed the possibilities in an earlier post. Any of them may occur. The political ramifications of it will be enormous, obviously for the UK but also for the EU, with two countries (the UK and Switzerland) breaking away from the EEA on the grounds of controlling immigration. That should give the EU something to think about.

The Swiss negotiations are awaiting the outcome of the June referendum. Were both the UK and Switzerland to negotiate together, it is not improbable that we get an associated relationship with the EU, something like Turkey, free trade, but not absolutely free movement.

I would discount the EU line that free movement is non-negotiable. When your third largest economy walks, many things may become negotiable. The UK is a net contributor to the EU budget of about £3.5 billion a year. That is no chump change.

This is why I think there will be another referendum in the event of a Brexit. The EU will also be in turmoil and won't be able to continue on a business-as-usual basis.

The EU will also be in turmoil and won't be able to continue on a business-as-usual basis.

Have to agree with that.

Obie wrote and the economic devastation which has already started
I have my own maybe conspiracy theory on that. Assuming the big money men control the world, and they want their constructed EU super power experiment to continue, reducing the value of the pound before the vote might make people with a bit of money to lose think they should vote to stay in to protect their wealth. Maybe I didn't write my theory very clearly.

Once UK votes to leave the EU, David Cameron will invoke Article 50, and UK will only have 2 year after that before the doors of the single market is slammed on its face.

There will be no referendum number 2. It will be undemocratic and wrong and I agree with David Cameron.


In the event of a no vote, this package that David Cameron degotiated will be a nullity . The UK may then apply to join the EEA within the 2 years that article 50 provides, and free movement will continue . Just like the case of Norway .

Business as usual. A win win for everyone.

Any talk of referendum number 2 is a little short of delusional.

Welfare and free movement
1.14 We have secured new powers to tackle the abuse of free movement and reduce the unnatural draw of our bene ts system, to meet our aim of reducing immigration, by creating fairer rules, while protecting our open economy.
1.15 Our new settlement:
• will enable the UK to have a new emergency brake to limit full access to in-work bene ts by newly arrived EU workers for up to 4 years when they enter our labour market. This will be in force for 7 years;
• con rms that in future the UK will not have to pay means-tested unemployment bene ts to EU nationals who come to the UK as job seekers;
• will mean that Child Bene t paid to EU nationals living here, but whose children live outside the UK will no longer be paid at UK rates but be paid at a rate that re ects conditions – including the standard of living and Child Bene t paid – of the country where the children live;
• commits to new legislation to prevent illegal migrants from using marriage to an EU national living in the UK to avoid our tough domestic immigration rules; and will mean that non-EU nationals who marry EU nationals living in the UK will also need to meet our immigration rules; and
• ensures greater freedom for the UK to act against the threat of crimes being committed by EU nationals moving around the EU by preventing those who pose a threat from coming into the country and making it easier to deport them if they have been living in the UK.

• punishes those who imported non-EU spouses by stripping their families of free movement rights

(That's mostly a retrospective punishment, though Indian and Japanese spouses still have to make a choice between British and original nationality.)

I wonder if Patricia McCarthy Rodriguez will have to get a visitor's visa for whenever she visits the UK. Would she be refused for allegedly damaging the UK's border controls by forcing the UK to accept residence cards as visas?

Obie wrote:Any talk of referendum number 2 is a little short of delusional.

Obie wrote:For UK to remove eu citizen or repeal the 1972 act will be unimaginable

Obie wrote:The ideas on an inward country locked within itself is unimaginable.

I suggest that such language is more than a little hyperbolic and such "arguments" (if they can be dignified by such an appelation) are not conducive to a debate that provokes thought.

@Obie, you still haven't answered my question asked earlier in this thread.
http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... l#p1311029

How would this affect non-EU nationals who manage to get permanent residency in an EU country? Say I, a British citizen, moved to an EU country with better immigration rules and then my non-EU wife joined me and received some kind of permanent right to stay in that country. Could she then come to the UK with me, or would be I effectively locked out of my own country because my wife's right to stay in, say, Germany, doesn't give her to right to enter the UK permanently?

It really looks like Cameron is trying to talk to the UK here. If this happens I'll probably be forced to leave, taking my skills, experience and student debt with me.

Not looking to muddy the water but thought this could be useful info.

Recently applied for Ireland visa for my non-EU family under Directive 2004/38/EC (Free Movement). Did not hear anything even after more than 4 weeks passed. I sent an email to find out whats going on and they replied with

"Due to the large volume of
applications of this type, the visa office is currently processing
applications received in May 2015. While every effort is made to process
these applications as soon as possible, processing times will vary, having
regard to the volume of applications, their complexity and the resources
available.

As you will appreciate, in order to be fair to all applicants, applications
are processed in order by date received in this office.

Kind regards,

Visa Customer Services
Visa Office, Dublin
Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service "

Now the question I have is

Can I travel to Ireland without visa and take my non-EU family with me and ask immigration desk to give entry clearance at the Ireland airport. I am EU citizen. My family does have valid schengen visa.

Think EU rules require they expediate the issue of visas for EEA family members , think the guidelines are something like 21 days. maybe a guru will be along soon with the right info.
If your non-EU family members need an entry visa, they should apply for one in advance from the consulate or embassy of the country they wish to travel to. If they will be travelling together with you, or joining you in another EU country, their application should be processed quickly and free of charge:
Countries which are members of the border-free Schengen area should issue visas within 15 days, except in rare cases, when the authorities should provide an explanation of their decision.
All other countries (Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Ireland, Romania, UK) should issues visas as quickly as possible.

Ireland is not in Schengen so it probably don't help. I doubt they will let you board a plane without a visa. In theory yes you could turn up at the border and ask to be let in but do you want to gamble that you might be turned back? Maybe contact Solvit and see if they can help/

Even Ireland's own guide for their visa officers has clearly stated that it must be processed with in 4 weeks

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Fa ... 20citizens

but, I dont think they care to be very frank. I dont want to just land at the airport without visa but I am running out of time. Moreover what I have found about the actual reason for the delay does not give me confidence that they will process the visa that quickly.

To those who still believe a NO (=Brexit) vote will trigger a second referendum:

The comparison with previous cases in Denmark or Ireland is wrong. In those cases the "wrong" result stopped the EU (temporarily) from progressing, and the re-vote (under slightly improved conditions for those countries) removed the blockade.

However, when the UK votes to leave in June, there will be a sigh of relief in many capitals. Of course, nobody will say it now in public, but behind closed doors you can be sure many will be happy to see the UK leave. After 40 years of only pushing the brakes, never the accelerator, London has no friends left in the EU.

Brexit does not stop the EU from progressing, it rather enables it to progress faster!

I am inclined to agree with that to a large extent. Even a senior official at the EU mentioned that many states will be pleased to see the UK leave .

If David Cameron invokes Article 50, as he has promised, if the result is leave, then there is no turning back. UK will have to leave in 2 years . By June 24 2018, UK will no longer be bound by the treaties and will then have to negotiate it's bilateral arrangements.

I think that is the procedure, Cameron thinks that is the procedure. Cameron said it is flying bird to suggest another referendum, and I agree with him that a married couple don't file a divorce in the hope that their marriage will get stronger. It will be delusional, and only deluded couples will do that.

So, I have an interest case here, and I wonder how it would play out under the new "deal".

I came over to the UK on a Tier 5 from Australia. My then girlfriend (Dutch) then moved over a few months later. We then got married a few months later back in Australia. Finally, We applied for EEA1 and EEA2 after coming back to the UK.

So, in theory, I should be safe from the proposals since 1, I had legal right (2 yr temporary) to reside in the UK before I was married, and was residing in the UK, and 2, my wife only moved to the UK after we got married? In fact we couldn't claim that she was exercising treaty rights until she got a job after we got married...

This seems pretty arbitrary...

and to those who still think free movement rights are gone:

In the Brussels agreement last week (18 february) there is no amendment of the Lisbon treaty, and no amendment of directive 2004/38.
The directive always had already a clause, saying that EU migrants should not become an unreasonable burden for the host member state's social security system. However, that has to be judged on a case by case basis, for each individual migrant taking into account the personal circumstances. The collective measures from the Brussels agreement are on legally very thin ice, to say the least. Cameron's 27 colleagues in Brussels may have allowed him to proceed in this way, whether the courts will agree is highly questionable. The law itself hasn't changed, so there is no reason why any court decision should change!

Are you saying nothing will change in case we stay in the eu?

yes, I am saying exactly that, with David Cameron on my side. He merely hopes that the dodgy benefits measures will deter new EU migrants, that's all

fysicus wrote:yes, I am saying exactly that, with David Cameron on my side. He merely hopes that the dodgy benefits measures will deter new EU migrants, that's all

There will be changes. For sure there will be. Whether it will stand the test of time, remains to be seen.

People are free or will be free to do unlawful things. Whether the judicial authority will accept it, is yet to be seen.

The court of Justice will be bound to follow the precedent they set in past cases..

well, I may be was a bit strong in my statement, but when you do not depend on social benefits, almost nothing will change

fysicus wrote:well, I may be was a bit strong in my statement, but when you do not depend on social benefits, almost nothing will change

You are generally correct. Your views aligned more are less with the proposals.

I Second that about social benefits, but what about the noneu spouse thingy

its nothing change ? only change no benifits for new comers people from eu...i heard news today from pm its going on sky news he is in slough and said its nothing change to eu rights only no benifits from people who just come and apply benifits ..its still free movement..