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New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, Administrator

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Richard W
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:20 pm

Obie wrote:These changes are proposal which has to go through various stages of legal process. It will be inconsistent with recital 5 of Directive 2004/38EC.

The directive will have to be repealed as they are not even consistent with the directive .
It's quite clear that this 'complement' to 2004/38/EC will amend it. I'm not sure though that the recital 5 is a problem. One could just redefine 'family member' to exclude people not resident in the EU. Also, what about Recital 18?
In order to be a genuine vehicle for integration into the society of the host Member State in which the Union citizen resides, the right of permanent residence, once obtained, should not be subject to any conditions.
How is that consistent with permanent residence being lost after 2 years absence? (Article 16(4))

shnooks1
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by shnooks1 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:24 pm

Richard W wrote:I think so. However, you may be snookered by the implementation of 'before marrying a Union citizen'.
That would be the dumbest thing ever. Marriage before both spouses take up residence together is the complete opposite of marriage of convenience. Thank you for answering my questions. I understand what you're saying now.

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:42 pm

Richard W wrote:
Obie wrote:These changes are proposal which has to go through various stages of legal process. It will be inconsistent with recital 5 of Directive 2004/38EC.

The directive will have to be repealed as they are not even consistent with the directive .
It's quite clear that this 'complement' to 2004/38/EC will amend it. I'm not sure though that the recital 5 is a problem. One could just redefine 'family member' to exclude people not resident in the EU. Also, what about Recital 18?
In order to be a genuine vehicle for integration into the society of the host Member State in which the Union citizen resides, the right of permanent residence, once obtained, should not be subject to any conditions.
How is that consistent with permanent residence being lost after 2 years absence? (Article 16(4))

I have a totally different view from yours. I don't interprete complement and amend or repeal to be the same thing in law .

In any event the lawfulness of this proposal is questionable, and it is unlikely whether it will come to law at all as it is dependent on many things.

I am beginning to think what the point of this thread is.

It is only leading to lots of unnecessary anxiety on members.

The views expressed are not very legally sound.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Richard W
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:44 pm

This isn't just about marriages of convenience. It's also about removing the anomaly that the French have more right to bring their families to the UK than do the British. The hardest hit are those where a British spouse wants to bring his or especially her spouse and children to the UK. The anomaly is being resolved by levelling up the misery.

chriskv1
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by chriskv1 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:46 pm

While it's interesting to see all the different opinions on the subject matter at hand , I feel like this is a topic for unintentional fear and EU hate mongering .(If that's a thing.)

Maybe its time to lock the thread ?
Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correct understanding.
Mahatma Gandhi

E&OE. I'm not a legal professional.

shnooks1
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by shnooks1 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:50 pm

No, please don't lock the thread. I'm extremely worried about the future but this is the most in depth discussion I have found and I want to read it.

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:53 pm

Richard W wrote:This isn't just about marriages of convenience. It's also about removing the anomaly that the French have more right to bring their families to the UK than do the British. The hardest hit are those where a British spouse wants to bring his or especially her spouse and children to the UK. The anomaly is being resolved by levelling up the misery.
I don't see any anomaly. There are two different matters here, one is a purely internal matter and the other is a matter which is purely within the jurisdiction.

The whole purpose of the internal market it the creation of an internal market were the freedom of movement of people , service , labour is ensured.

The UK system and rules are purely internal matter and not subject to treaty consideration.

Just like Danes are entitled to impose conditions on their citizens , si is UK. It has nothing to do with EU law.

With the utmost respect, I find your post very lacking in legal foundation and they appear mostly inaccurate and designed to cause unnecessary anxiety on members.

I am giving serious thought to the possibility of locking this thread if nothing more accurate or legally sound can be added to it.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:55 pm

shnooks1 wrote:No, please don't lock the thread. I'm extremely worried about the future but this is the most in depth discussion I have found and I want to read it.
Well the problem is, the information are not accurate and sound as no one knows a thing. Therefore this thread and some of the inaccurate post are causing you sleepless night than helping.

I am personally not touched as I can identify fiction from non-fiction, but others aren't.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

shnooks1
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by shnooks1 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:00 am

Obie wrote:
shnooks1 wrote:No, please don't lock the thread. I'm extremely worried about the future but this is the most in depth discussion I have found and I want to read it.
Well the problem is, the information are not accurate and sound as no one knows a thing. Therefore this thread and some of the inaccurate post are causing you sleepless night than helping.

I am personally not touched as I can identify fiction from non-fiction, but others aren't.
I understand. I'm also not accepting any theory as truth until we have official news about what exactly is going to happen. As someone who has little knowledge of the laws, I just wanted to see what people are speculating.

nyabs
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nyabs » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:03 am

I agree with Obie that this thread is full of fiction. This thread is supposed to help people with facts not scaremongering with baseless claims that have no legal ground. A lot of people here are so scared about the future based on uninformed speculations that are not only misleading the members but also add unnecessary anxiety.

tebee
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by tebee » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:55 am

I'll agree too, that there is a lot of uninformed speculation on this thread which maybe upsetting people. On the other hand I feel this thread performs a useful function in giving people somewhere to discuss these things.

One of the problems with forums, like democracy, is that everyone is allowed to express their views, no matter how ill founded or biased. It's up to the calmer and more logical heads on here to try to explain why those views are wrong - this is part of the "fun" of forums I'm afraid.

The more people contribute, the more we see other possible interpretations of this statement, information overload, but I often find this can bring clarity as some of these will lead to situations which make no sense.

The problem here is we are dealing with the weasel words of politics and negotiation - it was something that everyone could agree on. I suspect it is so vague and open to interpretation, so everyone could interpret it the way they wanted and go home and say they had won. Feel sorry for the poor Brussels bureaucrat who is going to have to find a way to make it compatible with existing EU law.
“I speak the truth not so much as I would, but as much as I dare: and I dare a little more as I grow older.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by bongwozzer » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:59 am

Can I just jump in here with my question? I did originally post in the Europe Forum, but was told to post here.

Re: Is derived free movement of non-EU spouses effectively o
Postby Casa » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:47 pm
We don't need another thread on this. There is already one running, please post there:
eea-route-applications/new-eu-deal-free-movement-rights-gone-t203556.html


So I'm UK citizen (but living outside the EU). I have a non-EU spouse and step-daughter. We were planning a move next year to Spain under free-movement, actually in the spirit of the treaty - that is to live and work there long-term, not as a precursor for the SS route.

Any thoughts / opinions / pointers as to what may happen if I accelerate our plans to relocate to May of this year and apply for residency before the UK referendum Decision?

Thanks in advance

shnooks1
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by shnooks1 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:33 am

I'm in the same boat as you. I'm a non-EU with EU husband, both of us living outside the EU and planning to move to Ireland this summer with no intention of moving to the UK either.
Short answer: Nobody knows.
My husband and I were thinking of leaving earlier, but we decided not to risk it since we don't have a flat yet and may not be able to apply for a RC in time. Also no one even knows what will happen to those who have pending applications- if they will be allowed to stay or they will not be granted. I've been stressing over all the "what ifs", but all we can do is wait till June and see what happens.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by the3rdman » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:25 am

Obie,

Thank you for that cathartic, rational response.

I think that the majority of the feedback in this thread has been designed to help, but I do think that some posts have overstepped the boundaries of opinion and fact. While some of these statements will unveil themselves as truth or false in future circumstances, we should try to not let anticipatory worrying control the next 4 months. And this is coming from someone who is extremely anxious and could personally be affected by the potential situation. I'm trying not to let untold events overwhelm me. I hope others can do the same.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by ryuzaki » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:59 am

Shakey wrote: The idea is to have UK spouse turn into UK/EU spouse visa - no discrimination. At the moment most people failing the financial requirement in the UK would probably pass it in Ireland which would move to an Ireland/EU spouse visa. Even putting the financial requirement aside the Irish system is much fairer as it requires 40,000 over the previous three years allowing for realities in peoples lives like pregnancy, temporary unemployment etc which the UK system does not. It will be interesting to see how fast the financial requirements are increased in Ireland and others if this legislation gets pushed through.
It's the language requirement I'm more concerned about. In that sense I think other EU countries are more lenient, so moving there and getting a permanent visa would be a lot easier than trying to meet the ridiculous UK rules.

I'm glad you share my interpretation, it looks like the SS route isn't dead but for a lot of people it really depends on what the Irish national rules are now.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by ryuzaki » Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:00 am

shnooks1 wrote: That would be the dumbest thing ever. Marriage before both spouses take up residence together is the complete opposite of marriage of convenience. Thank you for answering my questions. I understand what you're saying now.
I can't really understand what the point of it is, personally. Surely anyone looking to use this route would just get married outside the EEA. It's annoying and expensive, but hardly a major barrier.

I can see wedding holidays becoming popular.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by ryuzaki » Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:07 am

bongwozzer wrote:Any thoughts / opinions / pointers as to what may happen if I accelerate our plans to relocate to May of this year and apply for residency before the UK referendum Decision?
It seems like applying before the referendum would be a good idea. At least that way you know what the rules are. You can always cancel your application and start a new one after the referendum if things change in your favour, but I doubt that will happen. You can only really lose by delaying.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Shakey » Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:21 am

ryuzaki wrote:
Shakey wrote: The idea is to have UK spouse turn into UK/EU spouse visa - no discrimination. At the moment most people failing the financial requirement in the UK would probably pass it in Ireland which would move to an Ireland/EU spouse visa. Even putting the financial requirement aside the Irish system is much fairer as it requires 40,000 over the previous three years allowing for realities in peoples lives like pregnancy, temporary unemployment etc which the UK system does not. It will be interesting to see how fast the financial requirements are increased in Ireland and others if this legislation gets pushed through.
It's the language requirement I'm more concerned about. In that sense I think other EU countries are more lenient, so moving there and getting a permanent visa would be a lot easier than trying to meet the ridiculous UK rules.

I'm glad you share my interpretation, it looks like the SS route isn't dead but for a lot of people it really depends on what the Irish national rules are now.
I think this is the key, I can see there being a domino effect where EU countries that currently have pretty lenient rules for their own citizens (and quite correctly) will end up having to tighten up rules for their own nationals to prevent vast amounts of unwanted immigration. Sad situation indeed.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by shnooks1 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:56 pm

ryuzaki wrote:
shnooks1 wrote: That would be the dumbest thing ever. Marriage before both spouses take up residence together is the complete opposite of marriage of convenience. Thank you for answering my questions. I understand what you're saying now.
I can't really understand what the point of it is, personally. Surely anyone looking to use this route would just get married outside the EEA. It's annoying and expensive, but hardly a major barrier.

I can see wedding holidays becoming popular.
Is there any chance of an official clarification of the use of the wording of "who had no prior lawful residence" any time soon, or will we need to wait 4 months to find out exactly what it means? (Prior illegal residence versus no prior residence at all)

Richard W
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:46 pm

Obie wrote:
Richard W wrote:It's also about removing the anomaly that the French have more right to bring their families to the UK than do the British.
I don't see any anomaly.
You may not see an anomaly, but let David Cameron's prime ministerial statement of 19 February speak for his perception and his understanding of an effect of the proposed change:
David Cameron wrote:And an end to the ridiculous situation where EU nationals can avoid British immigration rules when bringing their families from outside the EU.
I still think that reversing Metock is the best explanation of the declared proposed change, but the effects will be more far-reaching, especially with regard to fees. For example, the right of an EU national and his family members to enter a host state if they can reach one of its border posts seems likely to be eroded.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by giorgosa » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:10 pm

Thanks for bringing speech of Cameron. There is an interesting point, here you go:

'The changes will apply first to new claimants.
And, after intense negotiations, we have ensured that they also will apply to existing claimants, from the start of 2020.'
It may refer only to child benefit, but it may refer to all proposed changes in immigration. Can't see why this should be different.

Another point: existing residence under EEA2 is lawful and it should be considered as such once all EEA2 holders will apply for the permanent residence.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by secret.simon » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:16 pm

Richard W
Beware, do not test the patience of the Grand Panjandrum. He has spoken and has made it abundantly clear that we can speak freely, so long as nobody gets anxious and we all agree with his viewpoint regarding the law. This is the fourth thread on which his wrath will have fallen. Do not bring their fate onto this thread. Agree abjectly with all he says or face his wrath.

To the other moderators: I take it that the moderating team is like a college, in that decisions are taken by consensus. I suggest that given that some moderators have voiced specific opinions in this thread, that they not be judge and jury in such a forum as well and that any decision to lock this thread be taken by moderators who have not participated in this thread.

The discussion in this thread is necessarily speculative given that there has been no legal documentation that has been published in this matter. I think most people reading this thread are seised of that fact.

However, because there is no legal documentation does not mean that there can not be a discussion. This is an immigration forum, not a legal forum. I suggest to the moderators (as I had suggested before) that we need space on these forums for a wide-ranging discussion about wider developments in the UK-EU immigration discussions and one that is not confined to the legal situation, as a moderator believes it should be.

I am refraining from contributing to this thread only because my questioning seems to get threads locked pretty snappily (and snappishly).
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by noajthan » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:39 pm

secret.simon wrote:...

To the other moderators: I take it that the moderating team is like a college, in that decisions are taken by consensus. I suggest that given that some moderators have voiced specific opinions in this thread, that they not be judge and jury in such a forum as well and that any decision to lock this thread be taken by moderators who have not participated in this thread.

The discussion in this thread is necessarily speculative given that there has been no legal documentation that has been published in this matter. I think most people reading this thread are seised of that fact.

However, because there is no legal documentation does not mean that there can not be a discussion. This is an immigration forum, not a legal forum. I suggest to the moderators (as I had suggested before) that we need space on these forums for a wide-ranging discussion about wider developments in the UK-EU immigration discussions and one that is not confined to the legal situation, as a moderator believes it should be.

I am refraining from contributing to this thread only because my questioning seems to get threads locked pretty snappily (and snappishly).
The Moderator's Code does not permit me to either confirm or deny that there is a Moderator's college (let alone a code).

If there was a college (which cannot be confirmed or denied) I could not say where it would be positioned in a spectrum ranging from, for the sake of argument, let's say:
Hogwarts through St. Custards and on to St. Trinians.

In defence of the Board I think its noteworthy that there are members (and indeed Respected Gurus such as yourself) who are able to roam and browse freely across the forums.
Last time I checked I do not think you have been locked down (or banned).

Suffice to say the Board T&Cs play a significant part in underpinning the smooth running of this community.

And on their part, members are expected to be robust and consenting adults who are well able to understand the implications of participating in an anonymous, public debating forum.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

Richard W
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:01 pm

bongwozzer wrote:So I'm UK citizen (but living outside the EU). I have a non-EU spouse and step-daughter. We were planning a move next year to Spain under free-movement, actually in the spirit of the treaty - that is to live and work there long-term, not as a precursor for the SS route.

Any thoughts / opinions / pointers as to what may happen if I accelerate our plans to relocate to May of this year and apply for residency before the UK referendum Decision?
Have you studied the Spanish 'domestic' rules on immigration? From what little I can find, which may be 2 years out of date, it seems to me that they would not cause you any trouble if you were treated the same as a Spaniard or as a resident foreigner. In particular, it seems that stepchildren under 18 are allowed in, unlike the British rules, which require sole responsibility.

I think, therefore, that the worst that could happen is that you would be moved from the EEA route to the Spanish route to settlement.

Have you set up plans for a supply of fresh (< 90 days old when used) marriage certificates and for legalising them? People going to Spain have had a lot of problems with non-EU marriage certificates. There may be some helpful information via foreign marriage recognition. The British embassy in Bangkok has been forced to print letters for people to give to the Spanish consulate there explaining that the British Government does not validate foreign marriages.

secret.simon
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by secret.simon » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:18 pm

noajthan wrote:The Moderator's Code does not permit me to either confirm or deny that there is a Moderator's college (let alone a code).

If there was a college (which cannot be confirmed or denied) I could not say where it would be positioned in a spectrum ranging from, for the sake of argument, let's say:
Hogwarts through St. Custards and on to St. Trinians.

In defence of the Board I think its noteworthy that there are members (and indeed Respected Gurus such as yourself) who are able to roam and browse freely across the forums.
Last time I checked I do not think you have been locked down (or banned).

Suffice to say the Board T&Cs play a significant part in underpinning the smooth running of this community.

And on their part, members are expected to be robust and consenting adults who are well able to understand the implications of participating in an anonymous, public debating forum.
Point taken, Noajthan. I fully respect the knowledge, wisdom and expertise of the Moderators' college (which does not exist), even those whom I passionately disagree with, because they are more learned (atleast in the law) than I am.

What I find disturbing however is that a moderator would threaten to lock a thread because it either does not comport with his own opinion or because it would cause anxiety. We are, in your words, expected to be robust and consenting adults. If we must temper our words because they may cause anxiety, well, not much left of free speech, is there?

I suggest to you that moderators must not only moderate (guide) the forums, but also be moderate in their own language. Calling contributors a "Walter Mitty character" and "deluded" and their alternate viewpoints "unimaginable" does not contribute towards encouraging free and full discussions. And such intemperate language has occurred in the past as well. This is not a one-off.

In moderating a discussion (not when it comes to advising on a specific question), moderators should be like the Speaker of the British House of Commons; impartial, guiding and controlling the discussion with a sense of humour and never expressing their personal opinions, except as an aside; and not be like the Speaker of the US House of Representatives; brazenly partisan and opinionated.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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