Application for EAA spouse of UK citizen - no CSI

Ok... sorry if I'm writing here.. first time posting...
If you need me to create a new thread, please advise.

It seems I have a similar to the OP's wife, probably even bigger....

Been here 7 years, married with a British citizen since 2012. I've been a student since 2012 and NEVER had a CSI. I am graduating in 2017 (changed course from a Scotland-based one to an English one in 2013 and had to start all over again from level 1); I only worked part-time for two years when I arrived to Scotland but never worked much later on. Not only I always had EHIC from my home country, but I have had a UK EHIC card and my husband private health's insurance also covers me.
I was never told about having a CSI at all, since when I queried about at my original university they told me it wasn't necessary because I was into NHS already as a EU citizen.

Question.... Is this CSI regulation a new one that became retroactive or I've assumed wrong all these years? Because I've been browsing the UK naturalisation papers from 2013 and there was no mention of this 3 years ago. I've also passed the Life in the UK test in 2014 and nobody told me anything even before that (CAB included).

Given that UK citizens aren't taken into account as EEA sponsors, so a PR or a British naturalisation seem out of the question for me. Must I settle for fast-tracked deportation in the case of a Brexit or better I start asking for a working visa elsewhere once I've graduated?

Welcome.

To avoid confusion & jumbled responses, I have moved your question to its own thread (this one).

Universities and doctors' receptionists are not necessarily immigration experts.

CSI has been required under EU law since 2006. And enforced in UK since 2011.

Its not a requirement for naturalisation; it is necessary for EEA students seeking DCPR.
And DCPR is now a mandatory prerequisite for naturalisation.

Having a foreign EHIC (if that's what you mean) and comprehensive private insurance from hubby are possible lifelines in your case.

Thanks for moving it here!! I'm always wary of creating new threads in forums, often I got told off.

So when I arrived in 2010, this wasn't enforced. I also visited a CAB that same year, for permanent residency reasons. I am originally from Italy and we have our own register to move residency elsewhere so my own embassy/consulate know which address I was living at any given time in the last 7 years.

I asked for information about how to become a permanent resident in Scotland after I had registered with my own consulate in Edinburgh and I was always told (in Scotland) that EU citizens had indefinite leave to remain. When I got married I had to prove I had been registered at a Scottish GP for at least two years (which I was) and no CSI was mentioned either (I was a student already at the time).

Concerning my husband private health insurance, how do I know if it's valid? Because for DCPR reasons does not seem useful, him being a non EEA sponsor.

Problem is that if I cannot settle for a PR or a British naturalisation, Brexit would cut me off before I start the process; I wouldn't like to force my husband to spend quite a lot of money for nothing (I decided to post here after two EU citizens I know, married to BC, have been rejected for naturalisation last week)

ETA: yes my first EHIC is from Italy but it only covers me for.... emergencies? In the old times we used to have the E111 module that was proof of our original country paying for healthcare in UK or France (members of EEC). This was not an option anymore after EU formation.

SarahM1972 wrote:Concerning my husband private health insurance, how do I know if it's valid? Because for DCPR reasons does not seem useful, him being a non EEA sponsor.

The relevant point is that you appear to be self-sufficient because he supports you; he's just not a sponsor in the EEA sense. As to knowing whether it's valid, the only known test is to apply for a registration certificate or, more usefully, a DCPR. In principle, the same policy could be valid as CSI for one person and invalid for another. The principle is that it should cover you for most medical expenses.

SarahM1972 wrote:Problem is that if I cannot settle for a PR or a British naturalisation, Brexit would cut me off before I start the process; I wouldn't like to force my husband to spend quite a lot of money for nothing.

You could get him to spend a lot more money, by getting you a spouse visa. I believe he could instead start the process with FLR(M), but that is or has been disputed.

In my opinion, self-sufficiency through your health insurance should be your Plan A.

SarahM1972 wrote:Thanks for moving it here!! I'm always wary of creating new threads in forums, often I got told off.

So when I arrived in 2010, this wasn't enforced. I also visited a CAB that same year, for permanent residency reasons. I am originally from Italy and we have our own register to move residency elsewhere so my own embassy/consulate know which address I was living at any given time in the last 7 years.

I asked for information about how to become a permanent resident in Scotland after I had registered with my own consulate in Edinburgh and I was always told (in Scotland) that EU citizens had indefinite leave to remain. When I got married I had to prove I had been registered at a Scottish GP for at least two years (which I was) and no CSI was mentioned either (I was a student already at the time).

Concerning my husband private health insurance, how do I know if it's valid? Because for DCPR reasons does not seem useful, him being a non EEA sponsor.

Problem is that if I cannot settle for a PR or a British naturalisation, Brexit would cut me off before I start the process; I wouldn't like to force my husband to spend quite a lot of money for nothing (I decided to post here after two EU citizens I know, married to BC, have been rejected for naturalisation last week)

ETA: yes my first EHIC is from Italy but it only covers me for.... emergencies? In the old times we used to have the E111 module that was proof of our original country paying for healthcare in UK or France (members of EEC). This was not an option anymore after EU formation.

Not sure what that Scottish advisor meant by connecting ILR with EU citizens.

As mentioned, even if they knew about CSI (etc), universities and doctors may not have been too concerned about you meeting all requirements to acquire PR. Its not their job.

EHIC will suffice in lieu of CSI.

Any comprehensive health type of policy that covers you will also do. It doesn't matter if policyholder is British hubby.
Read the policy - how comprehensive is it?

A RC issued to you as a student during or before 2011 would also remove the need to show CSI (due to a certain transitional arrangement).

Any EEA citizen starting their UK PR clock from zero now will be most unlikely to acquire PR in the normal way.
It is what it is, work with what you've got.
If you still don't qualify for DCPR yet then suggest apply for EEA (QP). Could be the best £65 you spend for a long time.

Don't worry about EU-related fees. Spare a thought for the unfortunate folks on UK migration route.
And I'm sure hubby thinks its worth it.

Suggest itemise your timeline and period of validity of foreign EHIC and period of cover from any policy.
See how it stacks up.

noajthan wrote: EHIC will suffice in lieu of CSI.
Any comprehensive health type of policy that covers you will also do. It doesn't matter if policyholder is British hubby.
Read the policy - how comprehensive is it?

Sorry but I had problems with my computer, I had to format everything!
I read the health insurance policy, not very comprehensive. EHIC's covering, more or less, the same things.

noajthan wrote: A RC issued to you as a student during or before 2011 would also remove the need to show CSI (due to a certain transitional arrangement).

What's a RC?

noajthan wrote: If you still don't qualify for DCPR yet then suggest apply for EEA (QP). Could be the best £65 you spend for a long time.

I've read the QP forms and they don't accept EHIC as a form of CSI because my intent shouldn't have been to settle here permanently. A bit difficult to show them this was the case when I worked all time since I arrived and subsequently got married with a local..... As a QP, I cannot fill it in as a worker because I don't work and I cannot fill it in as a student because I should show the intent to leave when the course will be over (basically like an overseas student).

To Richard W: I've had a look at the spouse visas currently in use for non-EEA nationals and they are very expensive; and... wouldn't that work like in Canada, USA or Australia where I have to apply for my own visa when I start to work?

We're currently looking at all the range of possibilities, even my husband taking up my own citizenship for EU purposes. If all my attempts fail, in that case we could have the chance to move to the continent if he's not required a working visa thanks to the dual citizenship.

SarahM1972 wrote:To Richard W: I've had a look at the spouse visas currently in use for non-EEA nationals and they are very expensive; and... wouldn't that work like in Canada, USA or Australia where I have to apply for my own visa when I start to work?

I've not heard of that complication, and even if those countries have it, the UK doesn't. A UK spouse visa permits the holder to work. Indeed, when it comes to meeting the financial requirement for the second stage, it can be met entirely from the spouse's earned income.

You're right about them being expensive, but aren't you worth it? I believe the principle is that you are paying for the right to work in the UK. As I said, it should not be Plan A.

SarahM1972 wrote:I've read the QP forms and they don't accept EHIC as a form of CSI because my intent shouldn't have been to settle here permanently. A bit difficult to show them this was the case when I worked all time since I arrived and subsequently got married with a local.....

For an RC (= Registration Certificate), so form EEA(QP), it is the present that is relevant, so you would be using your private insurance rather than the EHIC. The application using the private insurance will check that it is considered adequate - though I fear the HO will not necessarily be consistent over the years.

When it comes to past history, surely you only switched from using your EHIC to having private medical insurance when you realised your husband wasn't keen on going to your country when you'd got your degree?

SarahM1972 wrote:As a QP, I cannot fill it in as a worker because I don't work and I cannot fill it in as a student because I should show the intent to leave when the course will be over (basically like an overseas student).

Which form are you looking at? Looking at Version 03/2016 of EEA(QP), I think you've misunderstood the note at the foot of Q7.10 (about CSI)

Form EEA(QP) wrote:Note: You can only rely on an EHIC if you have not come to live permanently in the UK. As well as submitting your EHIC, you must also submit a ‘statement of intent’ confirming that you do not intend to live permanently in the UK.

This note only applies if you use an EHIC as evidence of CSI. I believe the 'statement of intent' is required because the EHIC is not valid if you intend to live permanently in the UK - it's for a temporary stay in another country to the issuing country. There's no general requirement for an EEA student to leave the UK at the end of his course.

RC is residence certificate.

Think of UK route as an investment; and count your lucky stars you're EEA.
Imagine how long-suffering Brits feel who don't have option of EU route for their families.

Yes, for a RC, via EEA(QP) application, the intent should have been just a sojourn in UK;
that is if you were a student with foreign EHIC (only).

It is not necessary to show such intent to leave when applying for DCPR.

Why not use EHIC and shoot for DCPR?
How does timeline and evidence stack up?

Richard W wrote: I've not heard of that complication, and even if those countries have it, the UK doesn't. A UK spouse visa permits the holder to work. Indeed, when it comes to meeting the financial requirement for the second stage, it can be met entirely from the spouse's earned income.
You're right about them being expensive, but aren't you worth it?

That is a question only my husband could answer. However, he already said he wouldn't pay for spouse visas, which means 1) he thinks to move elsewhere at some point 2) he thinks I'm going to enter working stage before visas are required and pay for it myself 3) maybe he thinks to divorce!!

Richard W wrote:For an RC (= Registration Certificate), so form EEA(QP), it is the present that is relevant, so you would be using your private insurance rather than the EHIC. The application using the private insurance will check that it is considered adequate - though I fear the HO will not necessarily be consistent over the years.

HO has not been consistent at all, they always change everything every six months.....

Richard W wrote: When it comes to past history, surely you only switched from using your EHIC to having private medical insurance when you realised your husband wasn't keen on going to your country when you'd got your degree?

I never switched from EHIC to private insurance because I've been into the NHS since I was here minus three months. I've checked EHIC yesterday and it kept existing until the 2015 mark. I'm not covered by EHIC since last year.
My husband has a private insurance that covers spouses through his company, he never stipulated one separately. I never thought to go back to my country myself and never will. If I'm asked to leave I am sure I won't go back to a place where I have no work, no house, no accommodation of any kind, etc. I've been an on-off migrant since 1996..... The fact I've the citizenship of a certain country only means I was born there, that's it.
The thought of moving from the UK to anywhere else didn't even exist (for us) until June 24th this year, so in no way it's connected to my degree.

Richard W wrote:

Form EEA(QP) wrote:Note: You can only rely on an EHIC if you have not come to live permanently in the UK. As well as submitting your EHIC, you must also submit a ‘statement of intent’ confirming that you do not intend to live permanently in the UK.

This note only applies if you use an EHIC as evidence of CSI. I believe the 'statement of intent' is required because the EHIC is not valid if you intend to live permanently in the UK - it's for a temporary stay in another country to the issuing country. There's no general requirement for an EEA student to leave the UK at the end of his course.

This is an issue I will have to face at some point. Because my husband's policy only covers emergency services, which is what I'm entitled to through the EHIC. It's the GP practice services that, apparently, aren't covered by anything.
The problem is also complicated by the fact that I was under Scottish NHS for two years as a worker, I decided to become a full-time student only through 'spousal support', I didn't come to UK to study, that was surely not the intention at the beginning!

noajthan wrote: RC is residence certificate.
Think of UK route as an investment; and count your lucky stars you're EEA.
Imagine how long-suffering Brits feel who don't have option of EU route for their families.

Never heard of it... I don't think I have it, I will try to see what I have.
You're right. However I'm in the UK because it's EEA, I wouldn't have chosen UK as a destination to settle if it had a visa system. I'm also not 'bound' by the language because I studied all the EU official languages, so my initial decision to stay here was due to 'UK being in EU' vs. 'other countries in EU'.
If my husband wasn't British and settled here, I doubt I would have remained after graduation+Brexit.

I've already been through 3 different visa systems (including the US one, which is a nightmare!) and I agree that in some cases how the foreign citizens in UK are treated by the HO is more awful than in other countries.

noajthan wrote: Why not use EHIC and shoot for DCPR?
How does timeline and evidence stack up?

I will actually attempt that route. I got an appointment at CAB too. Do you think they will manage, or bother, to check my application? Does the National Checking Service bother to check PRs as well?

Access to NHS is irrelevant here.

Your foreign EHIC covered you from 2012 to 2015.
If that private insurance is emergency cover only then that seems inadequate.

That means you are not exercising treaty rights properly at the moment (if you are still a student).
This is a concern.

Suggest get CSI in place to help regularise your status.
And it would be prudent to apply for a RC, EEA (QP), to help confirm your status.

As your PR clock stopped in 2015 (due to no CSI, inadequate insurance) you have blown it and unlikely to acquire PR in usual way.
(With all this wild talk of Brexit there's no time left on EU route).
So having a RC may help you invoke any transitional arrangements that may be put in place for those Unioin ciiizens still 'in flight' on an EU migration trajectory.

Naturally all this depends on the traditional British sense of fair play - and all yet TBC.

If you want to take a punt on £65 you could try applying for DCPR in 2017 using the combination of EHIC and that insurance to back your case.
You never know it may be accepted.
You would be no worse off for trying and you may have a small chance to secure your status.

After all, desperate times call for desperate measures.

fyi - this HO guidance intimates what is considered CSI:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... issued.pdf
To be fair to HO there's not much evidence they change "every 6 months".
CSI is stipulated by EU law.
This guidance dates back to 2011 - its the latest I can find without secure access.

SarahM1972 wrote:...

noajthan wrote: Why not use EHIC and shoot for DCPR?
How does timeline and evidence stack up?

I will actually attempt that route. I got an appointment at CAB too. Do you think they will manage, or bother, to check my application? Does the National Checking Service bother to check PRs as well?

I sense you are a citizen of the world.

You would know if you had a RC as you would have applied for it previously using form EEA(QP).

Its not about being bothered. NCS is not configured to vet DCPR applications.

CAB does not check such applications officially; it would depend on the calibre (and perhaps inclination) of the advisor assigned to you.

noajthan wrote: If you want to take a punt on £65 you could try applying for DCPR in 2017 using the combination of EHIC and that insurance to back your case.

Depending on the precise dates, you may qualify now. Your period would include the two years working, studentship with the Italian EHIC, and with any luck, not extend to studentship with private insurance. If there is a gap between arriving in the UK and starting work, you may have spent that time being a qualified person by virtue of being a job seeker. The Home Office studies your history in the UK, and should find the earliest qualifying 5-year period.

@Noajthan:
Is there any reason not to declare an overlap between the EHIC and the private insurance?

Richard W wrote:@Noajthan:
Is there any reason not to declare an overlap between the EHIC and the private insurance?

Overlaps don't appear to matter.
For any requirement (eg CSI) then one or more forms of suitable evidence can meet the requirements.
If one falls short and there is another option then the belt and braces principle saves the day,

noajthan wrote: That means you are not exercising treaty rights properly at the moment (if you are still a student).
This is a concern.

That was my main concern. Basically from the evidence I've a 12-month hole which will jeopardise the rest for years to come.

noajthan wrote: Suggest get CSI in place to help regularise your status.

How though? I mean, as a student I have no income so how do I explain I have CSI or self-sufficiency with a bank account that always has 0 on it?
It is also not going to be retroactive, it still leaves me with one year without it.......

noajthan wrote: As your PR clock stopped in 2015 (due to no CSI, inadequate insurance) you have blown it and unlikely to acquire PR in usual way.

That's what I feared..... which means I will have to wait for Brexit and then we'll see what's the best way to adjust to the situation. If it means leaving, well that's it.
You're right, I've always felt a citizen of the world (a reason why I studied as many languages as I could).

noajthan wrote: (With all this wild talk of Brexit there's no time left on EU route).
So having a RC may help you invoke any transitional arrangements that may be put in place for those Unioin ciiizens still 'in flight' on an EU migration trajectory.

Ok I emailed the university staff on Friday about this, no reply yet. However, what I fear is that a RC from UKBA should only concern campus students. I'm DL from 2013 (distance learning) and I was part-time in 2011, then became a campus student 2012/2013, then became part-time again for 2013/2015. Which means that in 2011/2013/2014 I was looking for a job and studied in my spare time.
However, because unemployed people are only registered by JSA, I am virtually... what?

I think my main problem is that I had a fluctuating status for so many years that getting it straight will be almost impossible.

noajthan wrote: If you want to take a punt on £65 you could try applying for DCPR in 2017 using the combination of EHIC and that insurance to back your case.
You never know it may be accepted.
You would be no worse off for trying and you may have a small chance to secure your status.

I might apply after graduation in 2017 so I know where I do stand with HO once I've reached the end of my studies.

SarahM1972 wrote:

noajthan wrote: That means you are not exercising treaty rights properly at the moment (if you are still a student).
This is a concern.

That was my main concern. Basically from the evidence I've a 12-month hole which will jeopardise the rest for years to come.

noajthan wrote: Suggest get CSI in place to help regularise your status.

How though? I mean, as a student I have no income so how do I explain I have CSI or self-sufficiency with a bank account that always has 0 on it?
It is also not going to be retroactive, it still leaves me with one year without it.......

noajthan wrote: (With all this wild talk of Brexit there's no time left on EU route).
So having a RC may help you invoke any transitional arrangements that may be put in place for those Unioin ciiizens still 'in flight' on an EU migration trajectory.

Ok I emailed the university staff on Friday about this, no reply yet. However, what I fear is that a RC from UKBA should only concern campus students. I'm DL from 2013 (distance learning) and I was part-time in 2011, then became a campus student 2012/2013, then became part-time again for 2013/2015. Which means that in 2011/2013/2014 I was looking for a job and studied in my spare time.
However, because unemployed people are only registered by JSA, I am virtually... what?

I can't advise on finances. I appreciate money is tight (I put myself through uni with a family and mortgage to keep, worked all vacations & etc).

But you need to regularise your status.
You don't appear to have any status at the moment. You can't just let it slide and hope for the best.

Any (yet to be announced) transitional arrangements are unlikely to apply to anyone with indeterminate status.
You can be a student with CSI or self sufficient with CSI.
Or turn yourself into a worker (or self employed) with genuine and effective work.

You can get into the head of a caseworker assessing whether you are a qualified person in HO guidance here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf
- note the sections on students and self sufficient.

noajthan wrote: I can't advise on finances. I appreciate money is tight (I put myself through uni with a family and mortgage to keep, worked all vacations & etc).

Yes, if you CAN work. Because I've not found a shred of a part-time job since 2012. Bit difficult to work when nobody hires you, not even as a cleaner.

noajthan wrote: But you need to regularise your status.
You don't appear to have any status at the moment. You can't just let it slide and hope for the best.
Any (yet to be announced) transitional arrangements are unlikely to apply to anyone with indeterminate status.
You can be a student with CSI or self sufficient with CSI.
Or turn yourself into a worker (or self employed) with genuine and effective work.

I don't think that abandoning my degree course to be a full-time worker in an area where nearly anybody finds work sounds smart.
Furthermore, it would actually damage me more in the long term and compromise the attempt of finding a job in one year.
Life works on priorities at this point I prefer to keep my indeterminate status instead of dismantling the only certainty I have in life, which is my education.

I've read the guidance and I think I can apply for jobseeker (or... attempt to apply for that one, given that self sufficient and students do need CSI and we agree I don't have sufficient evidence for that).

SarahM1972 wrote:

noajthan wrote: I can't advise on finances. I appreciate money is tight (I put myself through uni with a family and mortgage to keep, worked all vacations & etc).

Yes, if you CAN work. Because I've not found a shred of a part-time job since 2012. Bit difficult to work when nobody hires you, not even as a cleaner.

noajthan wrote: But you need to regularise your status.
You don't appear to have any status at the moment. You can't just let it slide and hope for the best.
Any (yet to be announced) transitional arrangements are unlikely to apply to anyone with indeterminate status.
You can be a student with CSI or self sufficient with CSI.
Or turn yourself into a worker (or self employed) with genuine and effective work.

I don't think that abandoning my degree course to be a full-time worker in an area where nearly anybody finds work sounds smart.
Furthermore, it would actually damage me more in the long term and compromise the attempt of finding a job in one year.
Life works on priorities at this point I prefer to keep my indeterminate status instead of dismantling the only certainty I have in life, which is my education.

I've read the guidance and I think I can apply for jobseeker (or... attempt to apply for that one, given that self sufficient and students do need CSI and we agree I don't have sufficient evidence for that).

I didn't suggest abandon studies.

Suggest you do need to find a way to get CSI in place asap come what may.
If you came up on the HO radar now an admin removal procedure could be initiated.
But its your risk, your call.
Dealing with HO really makes you feel 'alive' doesn't it.

noajthan wrote: If you came up on the HO radar now an admin removal procedure could be initiated.

At this point, I even wish it comes out. I'll invite local BBC cameras around so they shoot it live when they come knocking on my door.
Perhaps it will work to my detriment but it will works at someone else's advantages, i.e. thousands of students who have no clue about the above.

noajthan wrote: But its your risk, your call.
Dealing with HO really makes you feel 'alive' doesn't it.

Life always is full of risks but I don't think it makes me feel alive, rather angry I'd say, because I hadn't signed up for this when I decided to stay here. If I had known I would have buggered off by myself a long time ago.
I'd say now it's better I find a ridiculous job to justify my presence here one way or another...

I will update you if it 'gets interesting'.

Didn't you say earlier that your husband has insurance that covered you?