Applying for a Schengen-Visa for an EU-spouse in Ireland

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:36 pm

Applying for Schengen:

according to 2004/38/EC, which is well explained on the European Commissions' website, for married couples (EU/non-EU * ) it should be enough to provide:

both passports AND
the marriage certificate

Towards the middle of the above webpage it sais:

As your right of entry is derived from your family ties with a Union citizen, all the Member State consular officials can ask you to produce for the visa application is your passport and a document establishing the family ties with a Union citizen, such as marriage or birth certificate and proof of dependence, where applicable.

However, all countries I tried so far ignore this, even if explicitly asked what they think of the details on the above website.

They all ask for the usual

reservations
invitations
flight-tickets
health-insurance
etc...

...this varies a lot by country. I rang a couple of embassies in Dublin today, the stuff I heard and experienced was... more than unbelievable.

--- --- ---

* for this directive to apply, the "EU/non-EU-couple" must live "in the EU", but NOT in the home-country of the EU-partner.

EU = Experience Unavailable (at least I fail to see any sort of "Union")

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:58 pm

Here I'll outline my personal case, leaving out everything but the facts:

Initial setting:

German/Belgian guy (me)
my wife is Lebanese
we live in Ireland (currently Stamp 4 and re-entry until October for my wife)
and want(ed) to travel as follows:
Christmas 2007 --> Belgium (5days)
March 2008 --> Belgium (4days)
June 2008 --> Belgium, Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Malta (10days)

so we thought ONE Schengen-Visa with appropriate parameters will do the trick.

applied for Schengen-Visa with the Belgian embassy in November 2007, 5 weeks in advance of the first journey
for the last 2 weeks of the 5 weeks, we rang every day to see why the visa wasn't there yet... the same answer every day "we haven't got a reply from Brussels yet"
3 days before wanting to travel, we got a BeNeLux Visa, valid until end-June, multiple entry. (No idea why it wasn't Schengen)
we were told that it will be possible to change this to Schengen once we're back
next Schengen-application handed in February 21st.
got a call few hours later "we cannot give you a Schengen-Visa, as you still have a valid BeNeLux-Visa. Sorry, nothing we can do about that. Please apply for Schengen, once BeNeLux has expired"
I explained our travel-plans for June - reply was "we are responsible for Belgium only, you can travel to Belgium until then, nothing we can do. But you can collect your passports anytime and try somewhere else..."

---> The problem is, like most people in here, we are both actually working, so we can't "try somewhere else" every day, as advised by the embassy.

Does anyone have a clue how to fix this nightmare

archigabe · Post by **archigabe** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:14 pm

have a read through this post...

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=23117

It ends well though, we got a 1 month shengen as a compromise because it's apparently embassy policy to give a short time period for 1st time applicants.

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:40 pm

You should immediately contact Solvit. http://eumovement.wordpress.com/help-eu-solvit/

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:28 pm

Hi archigabe / directive,

thanks for the input.

I contacted solvit now (wasn't that fast), including basically the same data as in the post.

I already contacted them before, they weren't so helpful at the time. Let's see what happens this time.

Thanks for your help / seems we're a bit in the same boat.

I hope I won't run into trouble becasue I am actually Belgian.

I'll keep you updated as to what happens, maybe this can be used as a reference by others later.

Rgds, Christian

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:40 am

Hi archigabe,
Hi directive,

after contacting Solvit, how long does/did it take until you get/got a reply?

Rgds, Christian

archigabe · Post by **archigabe** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:09 pm

Solvit usually respond from 1 week to 10 days.

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:35 pm

archigabe wrote:Solvit usually respond from 1 week to 10 days.

Today, after 12 (edit: it was 19 days on this day already) days, i did not hear anything from Solvit yet.

The embassy couldn't care less about the situation they put us in...

We're stuck in Ireland / BeNeLux.

I'm seriously beginning to consider moving to Schengen to avoid this kind of trouble in the future, depending on finding a job...

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:25 pm

Follow up with solvit saying you ahve not yet had a response to your earlier message.

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:38 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Follow up with solvit saying you ahve not yet had a response to your earlier message.

Hi Directive,
I did just that, pasting the corresponding emails below.

btw: Thank you very much for your active and encouraging role in this forum!

Regards, Christian

### ### ### ### ###
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian <xyz@gmx.de>
Date: 2008/3/12
Subject: Re: Your SOLVIT-case
To: "Clerk at Solvit"

Dear "Clerk at Solvit",

may I ask for an update on this issue?

We are still very unfortunately stuck in Ireland, not being able to
exercise our fundamental right of free movement.

Thanks for any update on the matter you may have.

Regards from (no other option) Ireland,

Christian

### ### ### ### ###
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Clerk at Solvit"
Date: 2008/3/12
Subject: RE: Your SOLVIT-case
To: Christian <xyz@gmx.de>

Dear Christian,

We presented your case to our European Commission experts as well as to our Belgian expert, but we are still awaiting their answer. We understand that this is quite an urgent matter for you, and we will urge them to do their utmost to answer our questions as soon as possible.

I will let you know as soon as possible when we receive an answer from either of both.

Kind regards,
"Clerk at Solvit"

archigabe · Post by **archigabe** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:38 pm

If the Belgians are bad, consider the EEA application for the UK from the British embassy in Dublin...the application form has questions for 15 pages and the questions range from asking about your political opinions to your views on terrorism. Looking at the EEA application form, we abandoned our plan for a quick weekend trip to the U.K

http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/VAF5-10Dec07,0.pdf
http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/VAF5G ... ec07,0.pdf

clearly violates E.U directives.

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:50 pm

archigabe wrote:If the Belgians are bad, consider the EEA application for the UK from the British embassy in Dublin...the application form has questions for 15 pages and the questions range from asking about your political opinions to your views on terrorism. Looking at the EEA application form, we abandoned our plan for a quick weekend trip to the U.K

http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/VAF5-10Dec07,0.pdf
http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/VAF5G ... ec07,0.pdf

clearly violates E.U directives.

Hi archigabe,

the UK is in breach of 2004/38/EC. (Not that the UK or anyone else would care, but that's still the way it is.)

Their non-acceptance of EU-Fam-Cards for entry is, imho, illegal.

I lodged a full-blown complaint with the EU against the UK in that regard.

Of course, the EU treats such things with their usual speed. (I.e. nearly not-at-all)

But once they finally decide to move, there should be some interesting developments. Of course this may take some years....

...should anyone want to lodge a complaint / join in on my one, I'll happily provide my case# and my wording of the complaint...

edit: So far I filed 4 complaints - againt Ireland, the UK, Germany and Belgium, all concerning misinterpretation / non-adherance to 2004/38/EC. I filed all these complaints in German, but if needs be I'll translate them.

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:21 pm

Today, 21 days after lodging my case with Solvit, I received the following question back.

As this is what they come up with after three weeks, I have to say I'm not so confident anymore...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Clerk at Solvit"
Date: 2008/3/14
Subject: Your SOLVIT-case
To: Christian <xyz@gmx.de>
Cc: "different Clerk at Solvit"

Dear Christian,

I received an additional question from our expert in Belgium. He would like to know on the ground of which visa/residence permit your spouse is staying in Ireland.

I won't be here next week, but my colleague "different Clerk at Solvit" will take care of your case. You can reach her on the following e-mail address: "different Clerk at Solvit".

Kind regards,
"Clerk at Solvit"

###############################
my reply:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian <xyz@gmx.de>
Date: Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 4:02 PM
Subject: Your SOLVIT-case
To: "Clerk at Solvit"
Cc: "different Clerk at Solvit"

Dear "Clerk at Solvit",

my wife is in Ireland on a permanent Visa, which also allows her to work. (She is working)

Currently this permit is based on national Irish regulations (="Stamp 4"). We have applied for a residency-permit according to 2004/38/EC, but this is not yet processed (=Stamp EU4Fam).

Please find attached a copy of the passport of my wife, containing all pages with Visas, as well as a copy of her Irish "Garda"-Card, which is the national certificate of registration.

(...)

Thanks for any possible help out of this trap,

Regards, Christian

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:53 pm

...our problem is solved.

we applied for a new Schengen Visa with the Austrian embassy.

Reasoning was:

- Belgians refused another visa as we hold a BeNeLux-Visa
- Germans refuse to act according to 2004/38/EC, as I'm German myself
- Thus Austria (we reasoned) has to act according to 2004/38/EC AND
- Vienna is nice to visit anyway.

Applied - approved in 10 days

Got 2,5months Schengen multiple, so our summer holidays are saved, and we'll get to see Vienna as a side-effect.

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:56 pm

archigabe wrote:If the Belgians are bad, consider the EEA application for the UK from the British embassy in Dublin...the application form has questions for 15 pages and the questions range from asking about your political opinions to your views on terrorism. Looking at the EEA application form, we abandoned our plan for a quick weekend trip to the U.K

http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/VAF5-10Dec07,0.pdf
http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/VAF5G ... ec07,0.pdf

clearly violates E.U directives.

Yeah - this thing is unbelievable.

I lodged an official complaint with the EU against the UK in this regard.

All I got so far is a reference-number under which this is treated. Possibly a matter for a new thread, should the EU decide to act on this.

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:37 pm

Please have alook at:

http://www.london.diplo.de/Vertretung/l ... seite.html

Quote:
You DO NOT need a visa for Germany short stays if you are:

.......
a family member of an EEA national if you hold a British Residence Card.

Does anyone know if the same is valid for Irish residence cards??

microlab · Post by **microlab** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:46 pm

Does anyone know if the same is valid for Irish residence cards??

Yes it is, if one has 4EUFam card!

We talked about it here@

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=23293

archigabe · Post by **archigabe** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:48 pm

Fionn wrote:Please have alook at:

http://www.london.diplo.de/Vertretung/l ... seite.html

Quote:
You DO NOT need a visa for Germany short stays if you are:

.......
a family member of an EEA national if you hold a British Residence Card.

Does anyone know if the same is valid for Irish residence cards??

http://www.dublin.diplo.de/Vertretung/d ... =Daten.pdf

''If you are married to an EU citizen or one or both of your parents
are EU citizens and you are travelling together the visa is free of
charge. Please provide the Embassy with your marriage- or birth
certificate and your spouseâ€™s passport or your parent(s)
passport(s) as proof.
The fee for registered postage is 6,- EUR, unless you provide a
self-addressed and stamped envelope.
months after the date of expiry of the visa applied for.
If you are married to an EU-citizen but NOT to a German
citizen and your Garda Card is a â€œ4EUFamâ€

microlab · Post by **microlab** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:51 pm

Thats what I thought!

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:40 pm

Hi microlab,
Hi Fionn,
Hi archigabe,

thanks for the above details!

As the above two links show that the German embassies in Dublin and London are directly contradicting themselves (imho), I sent an email to these embassies and the ministry of foreign affairs in Germany, asking them to shed light on the different approaches taken.

(see below my original enquiry, it's in German, but the main point should be clear)

Should I get any replies I'll post them here.

Rgds, Christian

---------- Original message ----------
From: Christian
Date: 2008/3/27
Subject: Visum fÃ¼r Deutschland fÃ¼r Ehefrau eines Deutschen
To: Buergerservice, Botschaft Dublin, Botschaft London

Sehr geehrter Buergerservice,
Sehr geehrte deutsche Botschaft Dublin,
Sehr geehrte deutsche Botschaft London,

vor einiger Zeit fragte ich an, ob meine Ehefrau ein Visum braucht um besuchsweise nach Deutschland einzureisen.

Ich bin Deutscher, meine Ehefrau ist Libanesin. Wir wohnen in Irland und meine Frau ist im Besitz einer Aufenthaltskarte nach 2004/38/EC, ausgestellt durch die Republik Irland.

Dazu wurde mir erklÃ¤rt, dass 2004/38/EC in Deutschland nur fÃ¼r EU-BÃ¼rger, jedoch NICHT fÃ¼r Deutsche, Anwendung findet, da Deutsche in Deutschland ja InlÃ¤nder seien.

Dies ist soweit zwar nicht sinnvoll, aber immerhin noch logisch.

Stutzig macht mich meine neue Erkenntnis, dass die deutsche Botschaft in Dublin konsistent mit dieser Aussage auf seiner Webseite angehÃ¤ngtes Infoblatt (Botschaft_Dublin.pdf) propagiert:

(http://www.dublin.diplo.de/Vertretung/d ... =Daten.pdf)
### ### ### ### ### ###
If you are married to an EU-citizen but NOT to a German
citizen and your Garda Card is a "4EUFam"-type you do
not need a visa to travel to Germany, when you are
travelling together with your spouse. If you are travelling
on your own, you need a Visa to travel to Germany.
### ### ### ### ### ###

wÃ¤hrend die deutsche Botschaft in London folgendes kundtut:

(http://www.london.diplo.de/Vertretung/l ... seite.html)
### ### ### ### ### ###

You DO NOT need a visa for Germany short stays if you are:

* a citizen of the EU/EEA/EFTA
* a family member of an EEA national if you hold a British Residence Card. Download example
* a citizen of a country listed below (provided you are not going to stay longer than three months and you are not going to do any paid or self-employed work)

### ### ### ### ### ###

Auf Nachfrage bestÃ¤tigte mir die deutsche Botschaft London heute telefonisch (0044-207-8241466), dass ein Visum fÃ¼r Deutschland NICHT nÃ¶tig sei, solange eine britische Aufenthaltsgenehmigung wie im Anhang (Botschaft_London.pdf) vorhanden sei. Dies gelte selbstverstÃ¤ndlich auch fÃ¼r Ehepartner deutscher StaatsangehÃ¶riger.

Somit widersprechen sich die Botschaften direkt.

Es wÃ¤re sehr praktisch zu wissen welche Variante stimmt.

GruÃŸ aus Dublin, Christian

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:53 pm

Yeah, the German Embassy have a weird way of handling this. My husband who has a Stamp 4 for Ireland through marriage to me (Irish Citizen) also has to apply for a Schengen visa each time we visit Germany. The first time we visited (his 1st Schengen) in Dec 2006 they required the full set of documents:

1) Marriage Cert (original & copy)
2) Both passports (originals & copy)
3) Proof of both flights bookings
4) Proof of accommodation for duration
5) GNIB Card
6) Re-entry Visa for Ireland
7) Proof of Address in Ireland (original & copy)
8) Application form

We complained to both Solvit and the German Embassy that they were treating us differently than other EU/non-EU couples (holders of Stamp4EUFAM), but received the following response from Solvit (5 weeks later):

The Irish SOLVIT Centre have consulted with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform regarding your SOLVIT complaint.

The Department of Justice have informed us that a Stamp 4 and a Stamp 4EUFAM are both considered a residency card. However, Stamp 4 does not come under Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC. As the non-EU spouse of an Irish citizen, your husband's residency application was looked at under Irish Law, namely the Immigration Act, 2004, and not European Law, Directive 2004/38/EC.

In this instance, the Irish SOLVIT Centre cannot bring a case against Germany as the Irish Stamp 4 residency card is not a residency card according to Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC, and so the German authority are correct in requiring your husband to complete the full tourist visa form.

The Irish SOLVIT Centre pointed out to the Department of Justice, that the European Directive does not distinguish between Irish and other EU citizens and that issuing a Stamp 4 residency card to third country spouses of Irish citizens was causing problems for them when travelling within the EU. However, the position is as set out above. The Irish SOLVIT Centre may raise this issue with the Department of Justice again in the future.

I regret that SOLVIT could not be of assistance in your case.

The German embassy responded similarly quoting the Directive 2004/38/EC. I found this quite amusing, as this Directive was supposed to enable the "free movement" of EU citizens and their family, yet Embassies are using it now to justify why they make it more difficult for EU citizens and their family to travel freely! How ironic.

As you say, the information given by the German Embassy in London is different. It currently says:

You DO NOT need a visa for Germany short stays if you are:

* a citizen of the EU/EEA/EFTA
* a family member of an EEA national (but NOT a German citizen) if you hold a British Residence Card. [Download example]
* a citizen of a country listed below (provided you are not going to stay longer than three months and you are not going to do any paid or self-employed work)

This information looks different to the info you pasted. I wonder if they have updated their website since you posted? According this text, my husband would not be required to apply for a visa if he was resident in the UK and I was a UK citizen. But I do note that the Example British Visa they have linked (http://www.london.diplo.de/Vertretung/l ... =Daten.pdf) shows an EEA family permit (at least I think this is what it is). If so, this information (photo at least) is the same as they info given by the German Embassy in Ireland, but the text doesn't reflect this.

Whatever the case may be, when my husband applied this week for his 4th Schengen visa (2nd with Germany embassy), they requested the full list of documents again (original marriage cert and all). So I guess no change in that non-EU spouses of EU citizens resident in the country of their EU spouse are not entitled to freely travel to Germany, and are subject to the same list of requirements as every other non-EU applicant applying for a Schengen Visa.

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:46 am

Hi scrudu,

yes, the website of the German embassy in London was updated _after_ I wrote to the ministry of foreign affairs and the 2 embassies. (see previous post)

Of course they did NOT reply me, but just updated the info on the website. I really wonder if this was due to my email, or whether the timing was a coincidence. (The update happened less than 48 hours after my email)

As, compared to Ireland, significantly more Germans live in the UK I hope this move by the embassy in London will flood them with applications, so maybe they will understand how senseless their undertaking is.

I launched an official complaint against Germany with the EU in this regard. If anybody wants to join in, I'm more than happy to provide the relevant details.

As this would involve some work, I'd want to see some resonance before. Of course this is applicable to all countries, where this situation applies, thus Germans living in Ireland, the UK, Cyprus, Romania and Bulgaria, married to a non-EU-national, please come forward!

Just a little hint to all concerned: Don't be foolish and apply through the non-cooperative nightmare-ish German embassy in Dublin. Just go to any other EU-country which issues Schengen-Visas in order to avoid the German grief.

Regards, Christian

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:50 am

What a bloody pain! After applying at the German Embassy for his 3rd Schengen (2nd at German embassy), my husband was issued with a Schengen Visa valid for exactly 4 days (dates of travel to DE), despite us asking for a Multi-Entry for a 2nd trip to Schengen land (to ES in 3 weeks time).

When I queried this, the woman at the counter said she "couldn't know why it was only issued for those dates", that perhaps it was because it was his first German Schengen. When I told her that his 1st German Schengen was in the same passport and details were provided in the application form, she said again, she couldnt know. But that we should have provided proof of flights and accommodation for each subsequent trip and he could have been issued with a multiple entry. She said that there was such a thing as a 1 year visa, but this would only be issued if the applicant had provided proof of accommodation & Travel reservations for the entire year.

What a crock of sh*t. Why do they make it so bloody difficult? He has a 5 year Residency permit here, has 2 Schengen visas with multiple exits & entries which show he's always returned back to Ireland within a few days. All travel will be with me (EU citizen) ... It's just insanity. Now he'll have to go to the Spanish Embassy to personally apply for a new visa.

Do these Embassies think people don't work, or have lives that make it difficult to get to the Embassies to personally hand in an application for a few days trip to accompany their EU spouse? This is so frustrating as Directive 2004/38/EC was intended to make it easier for EU citizens to travel with their family, but it's still so damn time consuming and difficult ....

At this rate his passport will be filled within just a few years from mini trips within the EU!

<rant over>

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:58 am

Edit: Sorry - just reading you have "Stamp4", as you are Irish.

I can only encourage you to try traveling without visa anyway. It'd be good to get feedback what happens to you... Good luck.

Original post:
Hi Scrudu,

what nationality are you? If you are NOT German, and your husband has an EU4FAM-card, he does not need a Visa to go to Germany.

However, although this is not legally correct, at most airports in Germany it seems they don't know that and let you pass, even if you ARE German.

I rang some Airport-polices in Germany. In Munich they told me we (German/Lebanese) can pass, in Frankfurt this was established also, only in Hamburg it seems more complicated, but they don't send you back immediately.

Unfourtunately however, this MIGHT happen.

Therefore, if you want to travel for short periods, my own procedure now will be:

Book Aerlingus (not Ryanair!), as they let everyone check-in online. This way you'll be in the airplane with only 1 check just in front of the gate, where they don't care about Visas.

After arrival have a Coffee in the arrival-area, and wait before proceeding to immigration until the plane has departed (this ensures they can't send you back immediately, and gives more time to explain and argue)

Strange, unbelievable, but it seems to work. (I have no personal experience with this procedure yet, but I got good feedback so far.)

If you want to do me (actually all people in this mess) a big favour, please read here, and lodge a complaint against Germany

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:19 pm

archigabe wrote:If the Belgians are bad, consider the EEA application for the UK from the British embassy in Dublin...the application form has questions for 15 pages and the questions range from asking about your political opinions to your views on terrorism. Looking at the EEA application form, we abandoned our plan for a quick weekend trip to the U.K

http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/VAF5-10Dec07,0.pdf
http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/VAF5G ... ec07,0.pdf

clearly violates E.U directives.

Hi archigabe,

I logged a complaint with the EU against the UK in this regard. (Of course everyone is invited to join in on that, will provide details if asked for)

However, as we live in Dublin and there are no border-checkpoints between the UK and Ireland, we now travel to the UK as we please, as we found this UK-internal regulation.

Before an Immigration Officer refuses admission to a non-EEA national under
Regulation 11(2) because s/he does not produce an EEA family permit, the IO must
give the non-EEA national reasonable opportunity to provide by other means proof
that he/she is a family member of an EEA national with a right to accompany that
national or join him/her in the UK.

From this I gather that it is not illegal to go there, and the fact that there are no border-checkpoints makes it easy.

However, we carry the marriage-certificate with us, should we end up being checked.

I wonder what would happen if arriving from "the continent" to the UK without EEA-family-permit, but that's nothing I could try out in the near future.

Regards, Christian

Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Applying for a Schengen-Visa for an EU-spouse in Ireland

Applying for a Schengen-Visa for an EU-spouse in Ireland

my personal case with the Belgian embassy in Dublin

Solvit

problem solved...