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Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Use this section for any queries concerning the EU Settlement Scheme, for applicants holding pre-settled and settled status.
Clairenaz
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Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by Clairenaz » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:38 pm

Hi everyone

Hoping someone can help me.

I am a british citizen and got a eea fp for my husband in dec 2014. He got his eea2 in June 2015.

I am currently have not worked since coming back to the uk as I am a full time carer for my mum, Dad ( 2 ops)and my husband ( who has had 3 operations since my return our return to the uk). They are all in receipt of PIP. We also have 4 children who I look after full time as well as them.

I have been told that as I am not working I cannot apply for my husbands eea pr in 2 and a bit years time. I was under the impression that as I am their carer this would be classed as working :?.... I spend 24 hours a day looking after them taking everyone for hospital appointment kids to school cooking cleaning washing parents doing all the daily chores etc...unless my circumstances change I dont Have a second spare :|

Really worried about this now as the last three years would have been for nothing.

Could anyone shed any light on this for me thanks in advance.

greatscott
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by greatscott » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:11 am

Under SS, there is no need for you to have worked according to Eind case law. No-one on this forum, on any government web site, or anywhere in the public domain can prove that Eind law has been overturned. Therefore it still applies.

What the UK government is trying to do since 25 November 2016, is illegal.

Clairenaz
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by Clairenaz » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:19 pm

Thank you for your reply greatscott. So I am okay at the moment the last three years still count ?

gillacious_505
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by gillacious_505 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:43 pm

greatscott wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:11 am
Under SS, there is no need for you to have worked according to Eind case law. No-one on this forum, on any government web site, or anywhere in the public domain can prove that Eind law has been overturned. Therefore it still applies.

What the UK government is trying to do since 25 November 2016, is illegal.
I agree Surinder Singh 2016 regulations are illegal. But I am surprised people are taking it and the refusals. I cannot think of any other regulations been applied so sneakily in contradiction of EU law. Its not just Eind but the other conditions in Surinder Singh. Home office should stop the hypocrisy. They should imply it properly or should not apply at all.

I am surprised why there is no legal challenge to Surinder Singh regulations 2016 so far. People should crowdfund the legal challenge and should not let HO bully us which seems to be their habit these days.

Until it is done we all have to tolerate these unlawful refusals.

Obie
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by Obie » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:49 pm

For the purpose of people relying under Article 21 of the Treaty to return home, it will be necessary for them to show that they are continuing to work or self sufficient upon their return. However people who rely under Article 48 may not have to show that, in light of EInd.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

gillacious_505
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by gillacious_505 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:08 pm

Obie wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:49 pm
For the purpose of people relying under Article 21 of the Treaty to return home, it will be necessary for them to show that they are continuing to work or self sufficient upon their return. However people who rely under Article 48 may not have to show that, in light of EInd.
Obie , please may I know are you quoting Article 48 from the EC 2004 directive. I can't find the Article 48.

Obie
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by Obie » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:18 pm

I was seeking to refer to Article 45. It was a bit of fatigue that result in me missing entering the wrong provision.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

greatscott
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by greatscott » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:29 pm

gillacious_505 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:43 pm
greatscott wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:11 am
Under SS, there is no need for you to have worked according to Eind case law. No-one on this forum, on any government web site, or anywhere in the public domain can prove that Eind law has been overturned. Therefore it still applies.

What the UK government is trying to do since 25 November 2016, is illegal.
I agree Surinder Singh 2016 regulations are illegal. But I am surprised people are taking it and the refusals. I cannot think of any other regulations been applied so sneakily in contradiction of EU law. Its not just Eind but the other conditions in Surinder Singh. Home office should stop the hypocrisy. They should imply it properly or should not apply at all.

I am surprised why there is no legal challenge to Surinder Singh regulations 2016 so far. People should crowdfund the legal challenge and should not let HO bully us which seems to be their habit these days.

Until it is done we all have to tolerate these unlawful refusals.
Well we have recently appealed and our case is the perfect case to appeal Eind, because their refusal to grant EEA(PR) is for one reason only, the "BC not being a qualified person". So crowdfund our appeal.
I happen to know a top legal advisor ;-) here in the UK.

I also happen to have the support of a top lawyer and expert in SS and freedom of movement, from The Netherlands who is happy to assist any UK lawyer/barrister with our appeal ( there will be his fee to consider). He says Eind is certainly not overturned or diminished in any way in the eyes of the EU.

Slam dunk, just need financial clout as we don't have the resources on our own.

What say you all?

Clairenaz
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by Clairenaz » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:01 am

So do you think I will be okay and the last three years will count or should I be worried ? And try and think of alternative arrangements for my Mum Dad husband and kids and find a work and not care for them anymore? I’m so confused I do t know what to do I’m so worried.

Thank you for everyone’s replies :D

Clairenaz
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by Clairenaz » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:05 am

Greatscott I would definitely be interested in helping please let me know I can’t help a lot but whatever I can I will help.

greatscott
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by greatscott » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:25 am

Clairenaz wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:01 am
So do you think I will be okay and the last three years will count or should I be worried ? And try and think of alternative arrangements for my Mum Dad husband and kids and find a work and not care for them anymore? I’m so confused I do t know what to do I’m so worried.

Thank you for everyone’s replies :D
No, cant guarantee the british government will follow the rule of law but cant see why the courts won't. 2 weeks before we appealed there was a british court ruling confirming Eind.

But you know the legacy of the British the world over they make it up as they go along, deception is the name of the game....unfortunately. You will have to decide for yourself. No-one on this forum seems to know how to interpret the british interpretations!!!!!!!

greatscott
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by greatscott » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:33 am

Clairenaz wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:05 am
Greatscott I would definitely be interested in helping please let me know I can’t help a lot but whatever I can I will help.
Thanks, it would need to be a coordinated group effort headed by someone who understands crowdfunding. Set up a trust of some sort, then use the funds to help vulnerable applicants. I think thats how the majority of suspect applications make it, they form groups who look out for each other, with enough money to employ good lawyers/barristers.

You have no choice. If the government is acting illegally then you have to protect yourself.

Wanderer
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by Wanderer » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:14 am

greatscott wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:25 am
Clairenaz wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:01 am
So do you think I will be okay and the last three years will count or should I be worried ? And try and think of alternative arrangements for my Mum Dad husband and kids and find a work and not care for them anymore? I’m so confused I do t know what to do I’m so worried.

Thank you for everyone’s replies :D
No, cant guarantee the british government will follow the rule of law but cant see why the courts won't. 2 weeks before we appealed there was a british court ruling confirming Eind.

But you know the legacy of the British the world over they make it up as they go along, deception is the name of the game....unfortunately. You will have to decide for yourself. No-one on this forum seems to know how to interpret the british interpretations!!!!!!!
I'm British and I find that comment somewhat dearly beloved.
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

greatscott
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by greatscott » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:44 am

Wanderer wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:14 am
greatscott wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:25 am
Clairenaz wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:01 am
So do you think I will be okay and the last three years will count or should I be worried ? And try and think of alternative arrangements for my Mum Dad husband and kids and find a work and not care for them anymore? I’m so confused I do t know what to do I’m so worried.

Thank you for everyone’s replies :D
No, cant guarantee the british government will follow the rule of law but cant see why the courts won't. 2 weeks before we appealed there was a british court ruling confirming Eind.

But you know the legacy of the British the world over they make it up as they go along, deception is the name of the game....unfortunately. You will have to decide for yourself. No-one on this forum seems to know how to interpret the british interpretations!!!!!!!
I'm British and I find that comment somewhat dearly beloved.
I'm British too and trace my ancestors back to 1600 Northumberland...perhaps the reason for being very outspoken about this nonsense !! When they brexit and leave the EU let them change whatever they want, but until then follow the law!!

Wanderer
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by Wanderer » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:21 pm

greatscott wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:44 am
Wanderer wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:14 am
greatscott wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:25 am
Clairenaz wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:01 am
So do you think I will be okay and the last three years will count or should I be worried ? And try and think of alternative arrangements for my Mum Dad husband and kids and find a work and not care for them anymore? I’m so confused I do t know what to do I’m so worried.

Thank you for everyone’s replies :D
No, cant guarantee the british government will follow the rule of law but cant see why the courts won't. 2 weeks before we appealed there was a british court ruling confirming Eind.

But you know the legacy of the British the world over they make it up as they go along, deception is the name of the game....unfortunately. You will have to decide for yourself. No-one on this forum seems to know how to interpret the british interpretations!!!!!!!
I'm British and I find that comment somewhat dearly beloved.
I'm British too and trace my ancestors back to 1600 Northumberland...perhaps the reason for being very outspoken about this nonsense !! When they brexit and leave the EU let them change whatever they want, but until then follow the law!!
I typed r-a-c-i-s-t! Seems the word filter is r-a-c-i-s-t! Dearly beloved my arse, wonder if it changes 'bacon' to 'unclean infidel food'?

Forgot what I was going to say now....

Oh yeah, as a Brit, and not proud of some of the things done in it's name, I've travelled about Europe and Russia with work and much as it pains me to say it Britain seems to adopt these rules better than most in EU, I've seen job offers in France 'French citizens only' in German saw a newpaper ad for an 'attractive secretary', ad for a flat 'nice german couple required', etc. And don't start me on Irelands totally illegal VRT intra-EU car tax....

All part of life's rich pageant, people like too fight for a cause, that's true of every nation or ethnicity...
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

greatscott
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by greatscott » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:58 pm

:D hilarious!
Don't know what the whiff of beloved was, but anyhooo....have a great day!
Lol, r-a-c-i-s-t= beloved...good one mods :lol:

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CR001
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by CR001 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:08 pm

greatscott wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:58 pm
:D hilarious!
Don't know what the whiff of beloved was, but anyhooo....have a great day!
Lol, r-a-c-i-s-t= beloved...good one mods :lol:
r.a.c.i.s.t is auto filtered to say 'dearly beloved'. We have many laughs when reading posts :D
Char (CR001 not Casa)
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Wanderer
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by Wanderer » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:09 pm

CR001 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:08 pm
greatscott wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:58 pm
:D hilarious!
Don't know what the whiff of beloved was, but anyhooo....have a great day!
Lol, r-a-c-i-s-t= beloved...good one mods :lol:
r.a.c.i.s.t is auto filtered to say 'dearly beloved'. We have many laughs when reading posts :D
Have you got one for 'Trump'?
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

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CR001
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by CR001 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:14 pm

Wanderer wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:09 pm
CR001 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:08 pm
greatscott wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:58 pm
:D hilarious!
Don't know what the whiff of beloved was, but anyhooo....have a great day!
Lol, r-a-c-i-s-t= beloved...good one mods :lol:
r.a.c.i.s.t is auto filtered to say 'dearly beloved'. We have many laughs when reading posts :D
Have you got one for 'Trump'?
I can think of a few but might get fired :lol: :wink:
Char (CR001 not Casa)
In life you cannot press the Backspace button!!
Please DO NOT send me a PM for immigration advice. I reserve the right to ignore the PM and not respond.

gillacious_505
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by gillacious_505 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:26 pm

Wanderer wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:09 pm
CR001 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:08 pm
greatscott wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:58 pm
:D hilarious!
Don't know what the whiff of beloved was, but anyhooo....have a great day!
Lol, r-a-c-i-s-t= beloved...good one mods :lol:
r.a.c.i.s.t is auto filtered to say 'dearly beloved'. We have many laughs when reading posts :D
Have you got one for 'Trump'?
I got one for Trump. Its huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge .lol

Wanderer
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by Wanderer » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:30 pm

gillacious_505 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:26 pm
Wanderer wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:09 pm
CR001 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:08 pm
greatscott wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:58 pm
:D hilarious!
Don't know what the whiff of beloved was, but anyhooo....have a great day!
Lol, r-a-c-i-s-t= beloved...good one mods :lol:
r.a.c.i.s.t is auto filtered to say 'dearly beloved'. We have many laughs when reading posts :D
Have you got one for 'Trump'?
I got one for Trump. Its huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge .lol
Not 'Bigly'?
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

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CR001
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by CR001 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:33 pm

Ok, lets not take the OPs thread off track :wink:
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mkhan2525
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by mkhan2525 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:34 pm

Back on topic. How does one rely on Article 45 when O and B Netherlands more or less rewrites Singh and earlier case law?

In paragraph 54 of O and B the CJEU courts underlying objective was not to deter the EU nationals movement. The UK regulations as they are currently have the effect of detering a national from moving or returning to the member state of origin by creating uncertainy. For example there may be a situation where one is not able to work or where despite trying to find work they are unable to. Surely this is what the court in Eind was seeking to avoid hence Eind is not overturned?

It's clear from numerous case law, the CJEU court has always given significant weight to family life of EU nationals.

greatscott
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by greatscott » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:20 pm

mkhan2525 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:34 pm
Back on topic. How does one rely on Article 45 when O and B Netherlands more or less rewrites Singh and earlier case law?

In paragraph 54 of O and B the CJEU courts underlying objective was not to deter the EU nationals movement. The UK regulations as they are currently have the effect of detering a national from moving or returning to the member state of origin by creating uncertainy. For example there may be a situation where one is not able to work or where despite trying to find work they are unable to. Surely this is what the court in Eind was seeking to avoid hence Eind is not overturned?

It's clear from numerous case law, the CJEU court has always given significant weight to family life of EU nationals.
It doesn't rewrite Eind.

This Dutch advocate knows a lot about O&B, a decision by which Eind was most certainly not overturned, but to a certain extent was expanded-- a chapter of his book was dedicated to it and he also published a case note in the European Constitutional Law Review on another case that turned on what O&B means: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... ing-glass/

A case note (13: 383–399, 2017, published online: 26 May 2017) in the ‘European Constitutional Law Review’ refers to O&B (ECJ 12 March 2014, Case C-456/12, O v Minister voor Immigratie, Integratie en Asiel, and Minister voor Immigratie, Integratie en Asiel v B.) in relation to Eind as follows:
In July 2016, the EFTA Court issued a judgment on the circumstances under which EEA law provides for a derived right of residence in the home member state of an EEA national for the third-country national family member of that EEA national, specifically when that EEA national has returned from residing in another EEA state as an economically inactive person. In this, the Court was adding its own translation into EEA law (at least as it applies to the EFTA states, the three member states of the EEA that do not belong to the EU: Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland) onto a veritable tower of case law from the European Court of Justice, its EU counterpart, starting with Surinder Singh, going on to Eind, and most recently restated in O&B…
... Groenendijk places the ambiguous consideration in its context: the fact that the EFTA Court so closely followed Eind in its decision must also mean that one of the key considerations of that decision applies (either because the EFTA Court meant it to apply, or in spite of the fact that the EFTA Court did not mean it to apply). And specifically: that since the right of the EU citizen (in that case) to return to his own member state after making use of the freedom of movement of workers is unconditional, the derived right of residence of his family member must also not be conditional on whether the EU citizen continues to work or not. The fact that in Jabbi and O&B, the Directive has been declared to be applicable ‘by analogy’ to that derived right of residence upon return cannot be read to mean that the provisions of the Directive also apply concerning any conditions that the EEA national has to satisfy in her home state…
… The EFTA Court may do its best to keep up the appearance of only construing rights from the classic economic freedoms of the Community that the EEA inherited at its genesis, for instance by basing its express considerations on Eind. But even in Eind, EU citizenship palpably lurks under the surface as an important addition to the fundamental freedoms. In reality, the freedom of economically inactive EEA nationals to return to their home states with their third-country national family members is not construed out of the dualistic will of the EFTA states to adopt Directive 2004/38 (if it had been, the Court would have declared the Directive to actually apply), but is anchored in a legal basis in primary law: the independence of the EFTA Court to enforce the principle of homogeneity with EU law. And that legal basis, as much as the EFTA Court may not want to admit it, provides a necessary simulacrum in EEA law for Article 21(1) TFEU and the EU citizenship that EU law has developed and that EEA nationals do not have.
(Extracts above from case note 13: 383–399, 2017 in the ‘European Constitutional Law Review’, with the author’s permission).
Bierbach, J. (2017). The Reality Test of Residence goes through the Looking Glass: Court of Justice of the European Free Trade Association States (EFTA Court), judgment of 26 July 2016, Case E-28/15, Yankuba Jabbi v The Norwegian Government, represented by the Immigration Appeals Board. European Constitutional Law Review, 13(2), 383-399. doi:10.1017/S1574019617000104.

Hope this helps everyone.

mkhan2525
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Re: Eea4 Surinder Singh and full time carer

Post by mkhan2525 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:42 pm

That case was decided by the EFTA Court who's judgments are not binding on the UK as we are a full member of the EU. It is like any other court which has to take account of CJEU case law.

I can't see how this judgment would help.

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