Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

reynaldogr · Post by **reynaldogr** » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:50 pm

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:48 pm

pusched wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:44 pm

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:08 pm

i was referring to pusched in my last message. Apologies, im new in this forum
I will do but we won't be applying until end November/Early December
I see, you are due to naturalise any time soon and then your wife will have her 5 years stay in November then she can a ply for a PR certificate (Hopefully). If you haven't become british yet ill put that on hold if i were you. Then, in November you will still have time to apply for BC. You don't have to wait until she gets her PR certificate as this is just a confirmation of her becoming PR after 5 years since she entered the UK with you or to join you. Actually she can apply 28 days before this, so more time for you to apply for the BC. Once you apply for BC there won't anything that could stop this. Not even brexit. Also, when your wife gets her PR certificate, as you will be BC already by then (or close to), then she won't longer need to wait 12 months in PR status to become BC as this requirement isn't needed when her spouse becomes BC. So basically, she can apply for BC soon after having her PR certificate issued (hopefully, after march 2019 - very likely really). I hope this advise wil make change your mind. TBH, i whish i could now be in your situation. I would have regretted so much becoming British as i'm currently. TBH, i didn't need to become BC. I could have waited until now that my wife would have applied for her PR. I would have even writing here in this forum. Br

i meant: "(hopefully, BEFORE march 2019 - very likely really). "

pusched · Post by **pusched** » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:05 pm

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:48 pm
I see, you are due to naturalise any time soon and then your wife will have her 5 years stay in November then she can a ply for a PR certificate (Hopefully). If you haven't become british yet ill put that on hold if i were you. Then, in November you will still have time to apply for BC. You don't have to wait until she gets her PR certificate as this is just a confirmation of her becoming PR after 5 years since she entered the UK with you or to join you. Actually she can apply 28 days before this, so more time for you to apply for the BC. Once you apply for BC there won't anything that could stop this. Not even brexit. Also, when your wife gets her PR certificate, as you will be BC already by then (or close to), then she won't longer need to wait 12 months in PR status to become BC as this requirement isn't needed when her spouse becomes BC. So basically, she can apply for BC soon after having her PR certificate issued (hopefully, after march 2019 - very likely really). I hope this advise wil make change your mind. TBH, i whish i could now be in your situation. I would have regretted so much becoming British as i'm currently. TBH, i didn't need to become BC. I could have waited until now that my wife would have applied for her PR. I would have even writing here in this forum. Br

Unfortunately my BC is already under way. I expect to get it in a month of two. If i knew all this before, I would only have applied early next year after the PR so now can only hope for the best. I am putting my faith in the Lounes case or the HO losing my BC application!

reynaldogr · Post by **reynaldogr** » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:28 pm

pusched wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:05 pm

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:48 pm
I see, you are due to naturalise any time soon and then your wife will have her 5 years stay in November then she can a ply for a PR certificate (Hopefully). If you haven't become british yet ill put that on hold if i were you. Then, in November you will still have time to apply for BC. You don't have to wait until she gets her PR certificate as this is just a confirmation of her becoming PR after 5 years since she entered the UK with you or to join you. Actually she can apply 28 days before this, so more time for you to apply for the BC. Once you apply for BC there won't anything that could stop this. Not even brexit. Also, when your wife gets her PR certificate, as you will be BC already by then (or close to), then she won't longer need to wait 12 months in PR status to become BC as this requirement isn't needed when her spouse becomes BC. So basically, she can apply for BC soon after having her PR certificate issued (hopefully, after march 2019 - very likely really). I hope this advise wil make change your mind. TBH, i whish i could now be in your situation. I would have regretted so much becoming British as i'm currently. TBH, i didn't need to become BC. I could have waited until now that my wife would have applied for her PR. I would have even writing here in this forum. Br
Unfortunately my BC is already under way. I expect to get it in a month of two. If i knew all this before, I would only have applied early next year after the PR so now can only hope for the best. I am putting my faith in the Lounes case or the HO losing my BC application!

keep in mind though that yo are not officially British until you attend the ceremony. Maybe there is a way to postpone this or in the worst case, then there my be an option where you need to re-apply for the BC again if you miss it. I rather pay 1200£ to re-apply (and this should be pretty straight forward as you would done it once), than getting in all this unknown mess you are to about to get into, just like me. Please read the BC conditions properly after applying. You may as well have the option to cancel it before this is reviewed by a HO case worker. Good luck with that

Br

Unluckyeea2 · Post by **Unluckyeea2** » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:39 pm

Hi reynaldogr ,
I am in same situation . we all effectet people let us share the information keep posting in this . Thank you .

reynaldogr · Post by **reynaldogr** » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:58 pm

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:28 pm

pusched wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:05 pm

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:48 pm
I see, you are due to naturalise any time soon and then your wife will have her 5 years stay in November then she can a ply for a PR certificate (Hopefully). If you haven't become british yet ill put that on hold if i were you. Then, in November you will still have time to apply for BC. You don't have to wait until she gets her PR certificate as this is just a confirmation of her becoming PR after 5 years since she entered the UK with you or to join you. Actually she can apply 28 days before this, so more time for you to apply for the BC. Once you apply for BC there won't anything that could stop this. Not even brexit. Also, when your wife gets her PR certificate, as you will be BC already by then (or close to), then she won't longer need to wait 12 months in PR status to become BC as this requirement isn't needed when her spouse becomes BC. So basically, she can apply for BC soon after having her PR certificate issued (hopefully, after march 2019 - very likely really). I hope this advise wil make change your mind. TBH, i whish i could now be in your situation. I would have regretted so much becoming British as i'm currently. TBH, i didn't need to become BC. I could have waited until now that my wife would have applied for her PR. I would have even writing here in this forum. Br
Unfortunately my BC is already under way. I expect to get it in a month of two. If i knew all this before, I would only have applied early next year after the PR so now can only hope for the best. I am putting my faith in the Lounes case or the HO losing my BC application!
keep in mind though that yo are not officially British until you attend the ceremony. Maybe there is a way to postpone this or in the worst case, then there my be an option where you need to re-apply for the BC again if you miss it. I rather pay 1200£ to re-apply (and this should be pretty straight forward as you would done it once), than getting in all this unknown mess you are to about to get into, just like me. Please read the BC conditions properly after applying. You may as well have the option to cancel it before this is reviewed by a HO case worker. Good luck with that

Br

Citizenship ceremonies
What do you have to do?
At the ceremony, you will be asked to affirm or swear an oath of allegiance to Her
Majesty the Queen and to pledge your loyalty to the UK. Following this you will be
presented with your certificate of naturalisation as a British citizen.
You must make immediate contact with the local authority, as you only have 90 days
in which to attend the ceremony. The date by which you must attend your ceremony
will be given in your Home Office citizenship ceremony invitation letter. If you do not
attend the ceremony within 90 days without good reason, your application for
citizenship will be refused and you will need to re-apply.
Making the Oath (or Affirmation) and Pledge at a citizenship ceremony is a legal
requirement, and the point at which you will become a British citizen. You are,
therefore expected to attend a ceremony. If you have special needs or concerns
about saying the Oath (or Affirmation) and Pledge in English, you must bring these to
the attention of the local authority once you have your invitation letter.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... feb-18.pdf

you are good my friend! just don't assist the ceremony or call them and explain your situation and see what they could offer. Worst case, is that you will have to re-apply, and pay 1200ish £ more! i wish i could be in your situation.

Br

reynaldogr · Post by **reynaldogr** » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:28 pm

Unluckyeea2 wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:39 pm
Hi reynaldogr ,
I am in same situation . we all effectet people let us share the information keep posting in this . Thank you .

I will. Let's keep this forum alive and please, if anyone in the same situation, that has applied already for PR certificate, and knows the outcome, please share it. Weather is bad or good news, we need to know. The only good news so far, is i haven't heard from anyone who had his/her PR certificate rejected yet, under this circumstances. But as i commented before, this is something that the HO will start seeing just now as the TA that finished on oct-2012 will start taking its toll on new PR applicants from now, 5 years after. Most of the people before were mainly PR that were according the old Dual nationality rules imposed on July 2012 or during the TA imposed that finished on oct-2012. We will get to see!

pusched · Post by **pusched** » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:35 pm

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:28 pm

keep in mind though that yo are not officially British until you attend the ceremony. Maybe there is a way to postpone this or in the worst case, then there my be an option where you need to re-apply for the BC again if you miss it. I rather pay 1200£ to re-apply (and this should be pretty straight forward as you would done it once), than getting in all this unknown mess you are to about to get into, just like me. Please read the BC conditions properly after applying. You may as well have the option to cancel it before this is reviewed by a HO case worker. Good luck with that

Br

Thanks - I will keep this in mind. I also wonder what would happen if I renounced my British citizenship if EEA (PR) applications start to be declined at the moment.

Ideally I would not like to lose £1200 so by letting the application go through and seeing what happens in the next few months may be an option for me.

Unluckyeea2 · Post by **Unluckyeea2** » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:44 pm

Thanks reynaldogr .
yes , i think we are unlucky people before 0ctober 2012 are covered so them no problem after that is problem .let all effected people make a petition or something letter to European comission or officials or our local MP let them know the problem so they can do something positive otherwise there is big problem after Brexit March 2019 no more EEA route . thank you for sharing information .keep updating.

chaoscontrol · Post by **chaoscontrol** » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:49 pm

Unluckyeea2 wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:44 pm
Thanks reynaldogr .
yes , i think we are unlucky people before 0ctober 2012 are covered so them no problem after that is problem .let all effected people make a petition or something letter to European comission or officials or our local MP let them know the problem so they can do something positive otherwise there is big problem after Brexit March 2019 no more EEA route . thank you for sharing information .keep updating.

Riiiightttt.. looks like it is more serious than i was thinking. It is getting really hot on here : I am counted at least 10 people on this forum with exactly the same Dual citizenship problem waiting when CJEU decision in 'Lounes' will be implemented into UK law and whether the Home Office will issue any guidance for their workers regarding 'Lounes' case. (as it supposed to have direct effect in UK straight after CJEU decision in November 2017). 10 people .. is just start. there will be more and more..
Ok. to make a petition and sign it we need somebody who knows How to make it right. I suppose that should be somebody Law educated ?

Unluckyeea2 · Post by **Unluckyeea2** » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:24 pm

Dear chaos control , I am one of the tthat unlucky stupid worked full time and paid taxes for ten years no benefit apart from child benefit for nearly five years and paid 1ooo pound for naturalisation to hit ax on my own feet . I am so stupid and naive i was relying only same silictor since appllying registration certificate to my family visas ,DCPR and naturalisation application and paid him but he didnt advise me i should apply after my familr get PR .i came to know what stupid thing I done after reading this forum and called him but he insisting me nothing worry come to him december 2019 to apply PR for family . just regret and regret waisting money and jumping in troble only have hope after Lounes succesful .I was thinking to write letter to European commisin about our situation but my letter writing is not very good because of my little academic qualalification .Lets do together unity is strenth and more people raising issue early they will listen early if we are late then going to end up in Harsh immigaration rules and paying a lot of fees , lawyer fees , going back to third country for visa apply and waisting a lot maney and no guaranty visa will be given i just regret and regret becoming British . I had some health problem and asked in hospital if i have free treatment when i have EEa passport then i worried and applied naturailstion to make sure get treatment but lost family rights .let do pettition or letter . thank you.

Richard W · Post by **Richard W** » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:27 am

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:53 pm
- Your wife is entitle to submit her PR application 28 days before of her arriving in the UK. This mean you could have applied since the 29/11/17 (considering she arrived in the UK on the 26/12/12).

What is your source for being able to claim 28 days in advance? I think you are confusing PR with SET(M) and FLR(M); in the latter cases one needs to apply before the visa expires, and have a 28-day window in which to do so for maximum preservation of rights.

reynaldogr · Post by **reynaldogr** » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:40 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:27 am

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:53 pm
- Your wife is entitle to submit her PR application 28 days before of her arriving in the UK. This mean you could have applied since the 29/11/17 (considering she arrived in the UK on the 26/12/12).
What is your source for being able to claim 28 days in advance? I think you are confusing PR with SET(M) and FLR(M); in the latter cases one needs to apply before the visa expires, and have a 28-day window in which to do so for maximum preservation of rights.

This what i have been told by one of the EA advisers over their help line. I haven't bother to look for it in a official guidance notes or something like this. To be on the safe site, just wait until the date you arrived in the UK plus+ 5 years. The point is, that the date you submit your application or the date your Residence Card have been issue, is not relevant towards the 5 years up to the date you are actually entitle to apply for a PR certificate. It only matters when you arrived in the UK along with your EEA family member or joining him here. Br

reynaldogr · Post by **reynaldogr** » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:29 pm

pusched wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:35 pm

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:28 pm

keep in mind though that yo are not officially British until you attend the ceremony. Maybe there is a way to postpone this or in the worst case, then there my be an option where you need to re-apply for the BC again if you miss it. I rather pay 1200£ to re-apply (and this should be pretty straight forward as you would done it once), than getting in all this unknown mess you are to about to get into, just like me. Please read the BC conditions properly after applying. You may as well have the option to cancel it before this is reviewed by a HO case worker. Good luck with that

Br
Thanks - I will keep this in mind. I also wonder what would happen if I renounced my British citizenship if EEA (PR) applications start to be declined at the moment.

Ideally I would not like to lose £1200 so by letting the application go through and seeing what happens in the next few months may be an option for me.

Once you are officially British, your wife may be in troubles and there is no turning back. Even if you quit your being British the arm would have been made anyhow, as her right of residence under a Family member of EA national would have been disruptive for that period of time. Also, i understand quitting the British nationality is not something that you may take lightly. Once you quit i don't thing will be that easy to get it back (if this is possible). And then, if you quit it you have the Brexit round the corner, so... £££? Please seek advise! i think your situation from the point of view of Risk Vs Reward, 1200£ may be nothing, compare to the possible consequences. Br

chaoscontrol · Post by **chaoscontrol** » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:32 am

Bloomberg EU legal correspondent saying :

The U.K. isn’t allowed to strip the rights of EU citizens, including the freedom to live with their non-EU spouse, if the person moves there from another member state and acquires dual nationality, the Luxembourg-based EU Court of Justice ruled in a binding decision on 14.11.2017

CJEU Case that could weigh into a key debate on citizens’ rights in the Brexit talks.

It concerns a pre-Brexit situation where the U.K. is still a member of the 28-nation EU and whether citizens, who freely move around, can be deprived of their EU rights to live a normal family life when they take on the British nationality.

NOW ATTENTION ON THESE WORDS PLEASE :

“The ruling now forms part of the pre-Brexit case law that the U.K. and EU27 have agreed to apply and respect in the citizens’ rights chapter of the Withdrawal Agreement negotiations,” Fiona Godfrey, deputy chairwoman of British in Europe, said in an interview. “This means that 3 million EU citizens in the U.K. and 1.2 million U.K. nationals in the EU27 will be able to rely on it for protection provided we get a deal on citizens’ rights.”

Anybody from respected Gurus on this forum , could you please comment on what Fiona Godfrey said and explain :
A. what do she meant by saying this ? Is there a real hope that Dual citizens EU rights after Lounes case may be protected and included in the Withdrawal agreement ?
There no any real confirmation of that , where do she took that information from ?

B. May this be reason why we all waiting when Lounes`will be implemented into UK law but this not happens ? If this all will be included in the Withdrawal agreement (possibly) do we just need to wait for the Withdrawal agreement instead of UK Court listing or Home Office`s changed guidance to implement things like ECJ ruling in Lounes`?

Fiona`s words coming from here :
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... e-up-first

eeaprneu2 · Post by **eeaprneu2** » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:28 am

chaoscontrol wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:32 am
Bloomberg EU legal correspondent saying :

The U.K. isn’t allowed to strip the rights of EU citizens, including the freedom to live with their non-EU spouse, if the person moves there from another member state and acquires dual nationality, the Luxembourg-based EU Court of Justice ruled in a binding decision on 14.11.2017

CJEU Case that could weigh into a key debate on citizens’ rights in the Brexit talks.

It concerns a pre-Brexit situation where the U.K. is still a member of the 28-nation EU and whether citizens, who freely move around, can be deprived of their EU rights to live a normal family life when they take on the British nationality.

NOW ATTENTION ON THESE WORDS PLEASE :

“The ruling now forms part of the pre-Brexit case law that the U.K. and EU27 have agreed to apply and respect in the citizens’ rights chapter of the Withdrawal Agreement negotiations,” Fiona Godfrey, deputy chairwoman of British in Europe, said in an interview. “This means that 3 million EU citizens in the U.K. and 1.2 million U.K. nationals in the EU27 will be able to rely on it for protection provided we get a deal on citizens’ rights.”

Anybody from respected Gurus on this forum , could you please comment on what Fiona Godfrey said and explain :
A. what do she meant by saying this ? Is there a real hope that Dual citizens EU rights after Lounes case may be protected and included in the Withdrawal agreement ?
There no any real confirmation of that , where do she took that information from ?

B. May this be reason why we all waiting when Lounes`will be implemented into UK law but this not happens ? If this all will be included in the Withdrawal agreement (possibly) do we just need to wait for the Withdrawal agreement instead of UK Court listing or Home Office`s changed guidance to implement things like ECJ ruling in Lounes`?

Fiona`s words coming from here :
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... e-up-first

I don't think anybody is in a position to tell you what you want to hear.

The ECJ judgement says your wife can apply for PR and your being British will not have any impact. UKBA have not updated their guidance so they will most likely refuse her PR application. You will then have to appeal against the decision on the grounds of ECJ judgement which is superior to UK law.

I am in the same boat by the way.

Unluckyeea2 · Post by **Unluckyeea2** » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:48 pm

Hello everyone ,
Yes , I think all this similar to Lounes case people going to end up in long courts battle and there is no enough time due to Brexit on the corner , unless someone reaches to court and pressure them they will not implement Lounes judgement so only pressuring them will them force to implement Lounes judgement .Worrying for us is that what will happen after Brexit if these cases are waiting judgement in courts and there is no more EEA Law or Route .EEA citizens rights are included but dual citizens are not in Brexit withdrawal Agreement .I would renounce my British citizenship if the Brexit was not on the corner so confused . Keep update please.

reynaldogr · Post by **reynaldogr** » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:19 pm

Unluckyeea2 wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:48 pm
Hello everyone ,
Yes , I think all this similar to Lounes case people going to end up in long courts battle and there is no enough time due to Brexit on the corner , unless someone reaches to court and pressure them they will not implement Lounes judgement so only pressuring them will them force to implement Lounes judgement .Worrying for us is that what will happen after Brexit if these cases are waiting judgement in courts and there is no more EEA Law or Route .EEA citizens rights are included but dual citizens are not in Brexit withdrawal Agreement .I would renounce my British citizenship if the Brexit was not on the corner so confused . Keep update please.

Hi Gents,

After doing loads of reading and seeing this thing from another perspective. I reckon we are over-killing our minds. I understand that Lounes case it refers to a non EU Family member of an EA national/BC, applying for a Residence Card, after the TA imposed in Oct-2012. This was an obvious rejection and easy decision for the HO, but then Lounes case ECJ judgement, came into place and we are where we are. The whole purpose of these Dual nationality changes, it was to avoid people taking advantage of the softer requirements for EA nationals family member to reside in the UK, compare to the family member of a BC. We are not in that boat. From what i can see, most of the people in this forum (just like me and my wife), non EA national family member, got their 5 years Residence card while we were only EA nationals. Taking the decision post TA, to become BC can't affect retrospectively, the status of your non EA national direct family member, who were in this route already before us becoming BC. This doesn't make sense at all. Anyhow, this is just my humble way of looking at things. Not sure if I'm being naive or too positive. But i believe that senior Case Workers looking at our applications will definitely pick up on this and will approve the PR certificates for our spouses. I reckon this is all a mess that the immigration advisers (inc. the useless robots at the EA immigration help lines), created because they could only assure what is written in the immigration laws.
Looking into the guidance for the HO work cases, and the way they decide Permanent Residences (https://www.gov.uk/government/collectio ... d-guidance), I can't see anywhere, where they are asked to evaluate if a non-EA national of a naturalized BC, have submitted their Residence Card application before the TA ended (16/12/12). If this was the case, the rights that a EA national has to become BC after 12 months of acquiring PR would have been automatically tied to non EA national in route. This doesn't make any logical sense.

Anyhow, keep on refreshing the link above, to check on if there is any updates to the HO work cases adding something related to the Lounes case.

Br

reynaldogr · Post by **reynaldogr** » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:55 pm

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:19 pm

Unluckyeea2 wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:48 pm
Hello everyone ,
Yes , I think all this similar to Lounes case people going to end up in long courts battle and there is no enough time due to Brexit on the corner , unless someone reaches to court and pressure them they will not implement Lounes judgement so only pressuring them will them force to implement Lounes judgement .Worrying for us is that what will happen after Brexit if these cases are waiting judgement in courts and there is no more EEA Law or Route .EEA citizens rights are included but dual citizens are not in Brexit withdrawal Agreement .I would renounce my British citizenship if the Brexit was not on the corner so confused . Keep update please.
Hi Gents,

After doing loads of reading and seeing this thing from another perspective. I reckon we are over-killing our minds. I understand that Lounes case it refers to a non EU Family member of an EA national/BC, applying for a Residence Card, after the TA imposed in Oct-2012. This was an obvious rejection and easy decision for the HO, but then Lounes case ECJ judgement, came into place and we are where we are. The whole purpose of these Dual nationality changes, it was to avoid people taking advantage of the softer requirements for EA nationals family member to reside in the UK, compare to the family member of a BC. We are not in that boat. From what i can see, most of the people in this forum (just like me and my wife), non EA national family member, got their 5 years Residence card while we were only EA nationals. Taking the decision post TA, to become BC can't affect retrospectively, the status of your non EA national direct family member, who were in this route already before us becoming BC. This doesn't make sense at all. Anyhow, this is just my humble way of looking at things. Not sure if I'm being naive or too positive. But i believe that senior Case Workers looking at our applications will definitely pick up on this and will approve the PR certificates for our spouses. I reckon this is all a mess that the immigration advisers (inc. the useless robots at the EA immigration help lines), created because they could only assure what is written in the immigration laws.
Looking into the guidance for the HO work cases, and the way they decide Permanent Residences (https://www.gov.uk/government/collectio ... d-guidance), I can't see anywhere, where they are asked to evaluate if a non-EA national of a naturalized BC, have submitted their Residence Card application before the TA ended (16/12/12). If this was the case, the rights that a EA national has to become BC after 12 months of acquiring PR would have been automatically tied to non EA national in route. This doesn't make any logical sense.

Anyhow, keep on refreshing the link above, to check on if there is any updates to the HO work cases adding something related to the Lounes case.

Br

An open question for this audience.... following what is said on the following document, page 22.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v5_0.pdf

"British citizens who are also nationals of other EEA member states are not
considered to be ‘EEA nationals’ for the purposes of the Immigration (European
Economic Area) Regulations 2016 (the 2016 regulations). This applies whether or
not the dual national has always resided in the UK."

is the same "British citizens who are also nationals of ohter EEA member states" than "EEA member states who are also nationals of UK (naturalised Brisith)"? in principal looks the same, but technical it isn't. This could be our saver!

Br

chaoscontrol · Post by **chaoscontrol** » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:06 pm

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:55 pm

An open question for this audience.... following what is said on the following document, page 22.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v5_0.pdf

"British citizens who are also nationals of other EEA member states are not
considered to be ‘EEA nationals’ for the purposes of the Immigration (European
Economic Area) Regulations 2016 (the 2016 regulations). This applies whether or
not the dual national has always resided in the UK."

is the same "British citizens who are also nationals of ohter EEA member states" than "EEA member states who are also nationals of UK (naturalised Brisith)"? in principal looks the same, but technical it isn't. This could be our saver!

Br

don`t know what you mean here ... could you explain please . Did you mean that this should be the same thing but just reads and sounds different ?

reynaldogr · Post by **reynaldogr** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:00 pm

chaoscontrol wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:06 pm

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:55 pm

An open question for this audience.... following what is said on the following document, page 22.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v5_0.pdf

"British citizens who are also nationals of other EEA member states are not
considered to be ‘EEA nationals’ for the purposes of the Immigration (European
Economic Area) Regulations 2016 (the 2016 regulations). This applies whether or
not the dual national has always resided in the UK."

is the same "British citizens who are also nationals of ohter EEA member states" than "EEA member states who are also nationals of UK (naturalised Brisith)"? in principal looks the same, but technical it isn't. This could be our saver!

Br
don`t know what you mean here ... could you explain please . Did you mean that this should be the same thing but just reads and sounds different ?

It is just the wording. It can't be the same, being a "BC" (that has or hasn't always reside in the UK), and naturalized to any of the EEA member states or ("who are also nationals of a EAA member states"), than (in our case), a "EEA member" that came to UK, reside and then obtain the BC by naturalization ("who are also BC").

We are in fact a Surinder Sign Case if this was the case, as we already exercised our treaty right in our home country (EEA member) prior coming to UK and gaining BC. But TBH, i don't even know if i'm talking none sense trying to have some logical explanation to this sick situation we have got into, and that nobody seems to know a clear answer. Not even the adviser at the HO helpline. 2 out 4 i have spoken with, they say she is ok to apply for her PR, the other 2x they say my wife have lost their rights as EA national family member. So... I'm going ALL IN when i get back from holidays in April. Then what is left for us is just seat and wait! nothing else we can do mate, unless there is a formal guidance issue by then. Br

chaoscontrol · Post by **chaoscontrol** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:14 pm

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:00 pm

chaoscontrol wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:06 pm

reynaldogr wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:55 pm

An open question for this audience.... following what is said on the following document, page 22.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v5_0.pdf

"British citizens who are also nationals of other EEA member states are not
considered to be ‘EEA nationals’ for the purposes of the Immigration (European
Economic Area) Regulations 2016 (the 2016 regulations). This applies whether or
not the dual national has always resided in the UK."

is the same "British citizens who are also nationals of ohter EEA member states" than "EEA member states who are also nationals of UK (naturalised Brisith)"? in principal looks the same, but technical it isn't. This could be our saver!

Br
don`t know what you mean here ... could you explain please . Did you mean that this should be the same thing but just reads and sounds different ?
It is just the wording. It can't be the same, being a "BC" (that has or hasn't always reside in the UK), and naturalized to any of the EEA member states or ("who are also nationals of a EAA member states"), than (in our case), a "EEA member" that came to UK, reside and then obtain the BC by naturalization ("who are also BC").

We are in fact a Surinder Sign Case if this was the case, as we already exercised our treaty right in our home country (EEA member) prior coming to UK and gaining BC. But TBH, i don't even know if i'm talking none sense trying to have some logical explanation to this sick situation we have got into, and that nobody seems to know a clear answer. Not even the adviser at the HO helpline. 2 out 4 i have spoken with, they say she is ok to apply for her PR, the other 2x they say my wife have lost their rights as EA national family member. So... I'm going ALL IN when i get back from holidays in April. Then what is left for us is just seat and wait! nothing else we can do mate, unless there is a formal guidance issue by then. Br

Ok , got you mate. Sure , we will apply and then appeal and go to Court etc. Thats only the way for now (if nothing will change till March-April) .
I also suspect that other thousands of people in our situations will do the same (so the HO will have crazy lots of Dual British/EU apps flowing in or already have based on Lounes` CJEU decision) .

Only the question is : if HO will do it by law and consider ECJ decision in Lounes`, do they will issue that one "derived" right (still don`t know what it supposed to mean) or this is going to be normal Permanent residence ?
in Lounes` it is saying :

"The third-country national is however eligible for a derived right of residence under Article 21(1) TFEU, on conditions which must not be stricter than those provided for by Directive 2004/38 for the grant of such a right to a third-country national who is a family member of a Union citizen who has exercised his right of freedom of movement by settling in a Member State other than the Member State of which he is a national."

do these words mean Permanent residence or some another document which will allow to reside freely in UK ?

Unluckyeea2 · Post by **Unluckyeea2** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:28 pm

Hi ,
I read somewhere in this forum that similar dual EEA/UK citizens case hearing date was 5th February 2018 but since then no more posts . We need to send e-mail to European Commission to inform them that still Lounes judgement has not been implemented and what will hapen these cases after Brexit because dual nationals are not included in Brexit Withdrawal Agreement . I am doing lot research about a top Barristers and EU law experts because some solicitors don't know much about EEA law even they are good for other laws . I will apply in July but worry is that Brexit is on corner and if waiting long in courts battle . Keep update please .Thanks.

Ron121 · Post by **Ron121** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:45 pm

My appeal hearing was 5 February2018 . The home office not ready and have no idea about lounes case that’s what the say to my Solicetor.and than the home Office contact the court to adjourned . I don’t know why. I contact the tribunal the say will write to me new date for my hearing . I ask them why the date change the saying HO need 40 days to things about this case

reynaldogr · Post by **reynaldogr** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:24 pm

Ron121 wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:45 pm
My appeal hearing was 5 February2018 . The home office not ready and have no idea about lounes case that’s what the say to my Solicetor.and than the home Office contact the court to adjourned . I don’t know why. I contact the tribunal the say will write to me new date for my hearing . I ask them why the date change the saying HO need 40 days to things about this case

Hi Ron121,

I hadn't realized of this hearing in this forum. What was you situation?. Did your application for Permanent Residence (or non-ea national spouse), was rejected by the HO, because dual nationalities?

Br

Ron121 · Post by **Ron121** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:43 pm

Hi I’m non eu national.my application refused for PR because my wife hold British citizens after I got my residence card 2013

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