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Tier-1 Entrepreneur Extension Visa Approval

Only for UK Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) points system. This route is now closed to new applicants.

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe

seasky
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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by seasky » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:41 pm

marcnath wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:03 pm
Just a point here.

Interestingly, the CW has been given the right, based on genuineness test, not to award points even if all the evidence for an attribute has been provided.

Pg 29 of the guidance has the following:

Please Note: If we are not satisfied you have met the test in relation to a points-scoring requirement in Appendix A of the Immigration Rules, those points will not be awarded.

This makes calling this a points based system quite ridiculous and potentially would not stand up to a judicial challenge, but it explains why OP has not been given points for job creation and business continuity.
That is not good for OP. I raised above the curious attribute that was not awarded points for employment. I thought there is all the evidence for that, should award points and seperatly can refuse for genuineness. I told OP to attack that in AR. You are now showing that "administratively" CW was within rights not to award points even though evidence existed.

I still think needs to focus in AR on getting employment points back as step to getting it overturned.

Marcnath, What is points for business continuity, not aware of said attribute?

When I applied for t1e initially, I was very very confused about the points system. Simply you were awarded points for different attributes (knows english, has £200K etc) at different levels. but it didn't matter you had to have ALL the points?? Why not just make a checklist. I realised later that this is just a bureaucratic fallover from other visa routes where you do have different attributes and coming together a result is decided. Just pointing this out re judicial challenge. And anyway could win said challenge, get points for employment and still fail genuineness test

kom
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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by kom » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:43 pm

Thanks everyone for responses.

@marcnath: can you please advice me how to defend in AR Now? what makes my position stronger in AR?

- can i send them additional documents to the postal address as i have seen few people send additional documents in AR as well? Do they except documents? is that ok to create Premises agreement now and send it to AR team via post?

Please advice me on my refusal reason.

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by nali78 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:45 pm

Hi kom have you received your ihs refund before decision?

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by natsha » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:50 pm

Hi,

your case very simple so should go to AR with some extra documents.

Job Creation: After application, you had 7 months staff on payroll just send them 6 months data and mention you had a project that was finished before the interview and doesn't need that staffs.

Also, You are waiting for long time decision that's a reason you couldn't find a new contract or project because of your visa status Also, during application you jobs not counted as well whatever you had 4 contracts you can control be self to save the cost of business. (This point just fight with them)

Note: you did not get refusal before application reason like FPS RTI issues.

Office: Just made one contract bad dated and send them. but they shouldn't ask if your working home or somewhere. ( This point your strong)

Don't worry just go to AR with cover letter explain all reason. you will be ok.

Thanks

seasky
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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by seasky » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:02 pm

You are giving some very bad advice





Also, You are waiting for long time decision that's a reason you couldn't find a new contract or project because of your visa status


That would be an outright lie

Note: you did not get refusal before application reason like FPS RTI issues. S/he got for a much scarier reason. Genuineness

Office: Just made one contract bad dated and send them. but they shouldn't ask if your working home or somewhere. ( This point your strong) UKVI has every right to ask where one is working and consider it in balance of probabilities. There is nothing wrong working from home but for sure having a proper office/shop/restaurant is stronger message.

[/quote]

I think OP has a strong chance with a well formulated AR but don't add lying to issue

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by miumiuuk » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:10 pm

marcnath wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:03 pm
miumiuuk wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:44 pm
in my opinion:


2. You have created at least 2 full-time jobs that have existed for at least 12 months during 3 years. You have provided pay slips. Fps.......etc. as evidence. You are eligible to claim the points of job creations. the Case officer has no right to intervene your business and the recruitment, you are the director of the company, you know when would be the best time for the company to recruiting new employees, not an immigration officer. (none of CW's business) According to Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) visa guidance, your new recruitment is only relevant to your 5-year ILR application, not your visa extension.
Just a point here.

Interestingly, the CW has been given the right, based on genuineness test, not to award points even if all the evidence for an attribute has been provided.

Pg 29 of the guidance has the following:

Please Note: If we are not satisfied you have met the test in relation to a points-scoring requirement in Appendix A of the Immigration Rules, those points will not be awarded.

This makes calling this a points based system quite ridiculous and potentially would not stand up to a judicial challenge, but it explains why OP has not been given points for job creation and business continuity.
Good point.

But I think this case worker meant to mix up the terms and rules in order to make one more refusal case. (They seem to have an internal system to reward those caseworkers who successfully refuse cases.)

After checking the t1e guidance,
"continuities" refer to the directors/applicants have to be continuously engaged in business activity throughout all the pages.

There is nothing regarding the employees have to be continuously worked in the companies.It is impossible to do so.

Layoffs are often used as a means of managing and operating the business. It is to protect the company from bankruptcy so that the applicant/the company director can be continuously engaged in business activities instead of shutting down the company. It is very normal and effective means if the business lost sales (remember, this is reasonable if your managemnet account shows yor business in loss).Home office cannot withhold your points base on "not in a processing of recruitment" or "no employees at present" (I really hope the home office have some basis acknowledgement of business/accounting)


To op:
I just guess you would reach 10 years before 5 years ILR if your extension got approved. They suspect you will then switch to 10 years ILR and not intend to operate or continue your business and create two jobs in future 2 years. "You moved to your family house" easily made them think so. Ignore me, if you still need to go for 5-year ILR route.

seasky
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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by seasky » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:30 pm

miumiuuk wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:10 pm


There is nothing regarding the employees have to be continuously worked in the companies.It is impossible to do so.

Layoffs are often used as a means of managing and operating the business. It is to protect the company from bankruptcy so that the applicant/the company director can be continuously engaged in business activities instead of shutting down the company. It is very normal and effective means if the business lost sales (remember, this is reasonable if your managemnet account shows yor business in loss).Home office cannot withhold your points base on "not in a processing of recruitment" or "no employees at present" (I really hope the home office have some basis acknowledgement of business/accounting)
You are post rationalising righteousness, which helps the OP not at all. The HO not only has the right, but the obligation to test genuineness, it is as much a part of the route rules as the fact the minimum is 2 job/years. Whether the CWs are good at business evaluation is a separate question.

We do not kno internal guidance on genuiness, but we do know the Tie MAC report says:

"Tier 1(Entrepreneur) route has a long tail of low quality projects which contribute little or nothing to UK plc. The MAC suggests major reform of this route"

That has not been converted to immigration law or applicant guidance. But it may be the direction they are aiming on genuineness. As such saying "it's OK and normal to have no employees" is not helpful

To op:
I just guess you would reach 10 years before 5 years ILR if your extension got approved. They suspect you will then switch to 10 years ILR and not intend to operate or continue your business and create two jobs in future 2 years. "You moved to your family house" easily made them think so. Ignore me, if you still need to go for 5-year ILR route.
Why do you assume OP is near LR? Maybe he came to the UK initial visa (T1e was meant to attract talented migrant entrepreneurs). You should know that T1e was not setup to be the visa route when no other router fits you. That is what is killing this route

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by marcnath » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:46 pm

@natsha - appreciate your willingness to help but please avoid giving wrong and/or bad advice
natsha wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:50 pm

your case very simple so should go to AR with some extra documents.
HO is very clear that no extra documents can be submitted in AR
natsha wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:50 pm

Office: Just made one contract bad dated and send them. but they shouldn't ask if your working home or somewhere. ( This point your strong)
You are asking OP to commit fraud. If HO determines that a fake document is provided (and it would be easy to do that), not only will the refusal be upheld but it will impact all future applications.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by marcnath » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:50 pm

seasky wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:41 pm


Marcnath, What is points for business continuity, not aware of said attribute?
I have assumed business continuity here refers to being engaged in the business three months before application. I assume that attribute has been given no points.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by Casa » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:54 pm

@natsha Further to marcnath's comment, may I also make it clear that any members advising fraudulent documents should be submitted in any application, will have their forum membership terminated.
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by natsha » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:22 pm

Not giving advising fraudulent documents you take my comment wrong way.

Office: If you are working from home then you need to permission to the landlord/ Mortgage agents using Adress/ trading as a business.

The same situation happened one-off person on interview HO asks him to send Agreement.

However, Working from Home is not an issue.

Anyways That's my point of view I saw this case but KOM@, please wait for more senior members or legal advice.

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by seasky » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:32 pm

natsha wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:22 pm
Not giving advising fraudulent documents you take my comment wrong way.

Office: If you are working from home then you need to permission to the landlord/ Mortgage agents using Adress/ trading as a business.

The same situation happened one-off person on interview HO asks him to send Agreement.

However, Working from Home is not an issue.

Anyways That's my point of view I saw this case but KOM@, please wait for more senior members or legal advice.
You also said OP should use the excuse of long wait for reason of not finding another contract or project. That would be a lie to (except in the very rare case customers enquire about visa status...)

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by natsha » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:41 pm

This Is not a rare case, My person Experience, I did not get a contract while my application was pending in HO.
Almost Final Contract but client Rejected to sign Contract because of Application pending in HO.He said if I do not get Visa who gonna look after terms and conditions. I said if not then I will give notice 14 days but unfortunately, he said business does not work like that. :cry:

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by seasky » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:46 pm

natsha wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:41 pm
This Is not a rare case, My person Experience, I did not get a contract while my application was pending in HO.
Almost Final Contract but client Rejected to sign Contract because of Application pending in HO.He said if I do not get Visa who gonna look after terms and conditions. I said if not then I will give notice 14 days but unfortunately, he said business does not work like that. :cry:
I stand corrected.

How did they know u were a migrant to ask your visa status?

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by miumiuuk » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:55 pm

seasky wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:30 pm
miumiuuk wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:10 pm


There is nothing regarding the employees have to be continuously worked in the companies.It is impossible to do so.

Layoffs are often used as a means of managing and operating the business. It is to protect the company from bankruptcy so that the applicant/the company director can be continuously engaged in business activities instead of shutting down the company. It is very normal and effective means if the business lost sales (remember, this is reasonable if your managemnet account shows yor business in loss).Home office cannot withhold your points base on "not in a processing of recruitment" or "no employees at present" (I really hope the home office have some basis acknowledgement of business/accounting)
You are post rationalising righteousness, which helps the OP not at all. The HO not only has the right, but the obligation to test genuineness, it is as much a part of the route rules as the fact the minimum is 2 job/years. Whether the CWs are good at business evaluation is a separate question.

We do not kno internal guidance on genuiness, but we do know the Tie MAC report says:

"Tier 1(Entrepreneur) route has a long tail of low quality projects which contribute little or nothing to UK plc. The MAC suggests major reform of this route"

That has not been converted to immigration law or applicant guidance. But it may be the direction they are aiming on genuineness. As such saying "it's OK and normal to have no employees" is not helpful

To op:
I just guess you would reach 10 years before 5 years ILR if your extension got approved. They suspect you will then switch to 10 years ILR and not intend to operate or continue your business and create two jobs in future 2 years. "You moved to your family house" easily made them think so. Ignore me, if you still need to go for 5-year ILR route.
Why do you assume OP is near LR? Maybe he came to the UK initial visa (T1e was meant to attract talented migrant entrepreneurs). You should know that T1e was not setup to be the visa route when no other router fits you. That is what is killing this route
I don't know what statics MAC according to. Even international students contribute economy a lot during just stay in the UK (Google to find the news everywhere) but entrepreneurs with spending 50k/200k and compulsory hire two people, contribute little or nothing???. Let's assume this report is correct, it should be only applied to the initial visa but not the extension Visa.HO should not grant initial visas to the entrepreneurs who just want to be eligible for 10 years route or other catalogues or bad quality projects etc. at the first stage.

If the entrepreneur has been granted the initial visa, and they
- were genuinely doing a business
- spent 50k/200k in the UK
- created two jobs
during the past three years

They all deserve approvals of extension.

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by natsha » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:59 pm

Honesty is part of the business we need to clear with clients Before signing I told them everything. Even I lost running one contract as well while application pending.

Good news is after my extension/visa got they had signed and so far generate 53k Turnover from that client. :)

I would say everyone good luck nowadays Pending application.

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by seasky » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:18 pm

miumiuuk wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:55 pm

I don't know what statics MAC according to. Even international students contribute economy a lot during just stay in the UK (Google to find the news everywhere) but entrepreneurs with spending 50k/200k and compulsory hire two people, contribute little or nothing???. Let's assume this report is correct, it should be only applied to the initial visa but not the extension Visa.HO should not grant initial visas to the entrepreneurs who just want to be eligible for 10 years route or other catalogues or bad quality projects etc. at the first stage.

If the entrepreneur has been granted the initial visa, and they
- were genuinely doing a business
- spent 50k/200k in the UK
- created two jobs
during the past three years

They all deserve approvals of extension.
What's the logic of that? After 3 years you can learn if they are serious. While bureaucratic organisations need to put in place some measurable minimal measurable attributes would you agree those that hire 2, 18 year olds, min wage (which is lower than 25 yr olds...) for exactly one year, then fire them are (most likely) not genuine?

The MAC report seriously disagrees with you and thinks the nature of the business in the lens of value to UK PLC is important. Saying that, MAC report is not yet implemented so now some businesses that bring low value are allowed.

And the funny thing, hi quality businesses, that need a modicum of travel cannot use the route....

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by miumiuuk » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:49 pm

seasky wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:18 pm
miumiuuk wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:55 pm

I don't know what statics MAC according to. Even international students contribute economy a lot during just stay in the UK (Google to find the news everywhere) but entrepreneurs with spending 50k/200k and compulsory hire two people, contribute little or nothing???. Let's assume this report is correct, it should be only applied to the initial visa but not the extension Visa.HO should not grant initial visas to the entrepreneurs who just want to be eligible for 10 years route or other catalogues or bad quality projects etc. at the first stage.

If the entrepreneur has been granted the initial visa, and they
- were genuinely doing a business
- spent 50k/200k in the UK
- created two jobs
during the past three years

They all deserve approvals of extension.
What's the logic of that? After 3 years you can learn if they are serious. While bureaucratic organisations need to put in place some measurable minimal measurable attributes would you agree those that hire 2, 18 year olds, min wage (which is lower than 25 yr olds...) for exactly one year, then fire them are (most likely) not genuine?

The MAC report seriously disagrees with you and thinks the nature of the business in the lens of value to UK PLC is important. Saying that, MAC report is not yet implemented so now some businesses that bring low value are allowed.

And the funny thing, hi quality businesses, that need a modicum of travel cannot use the route....
end of discussion. off topic again. and may be locked by moderates.
Wish your next comment is a good suggestion to op but not bringing the outdated report or information to challenge other members.

Still
If the entrepreneur has been granted the initial visa, and they
- were genuinely doing a business
- spent 50k/200k in the UK
- created two jobs
during the past three years

They all deserve approvals of extension.

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by seasky » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:58 pm

miumiuuk wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:49 pm

end of discussion. off topic again. and may be locked by moderates.
Wish your next comment is a good suggestion to op but not bringing the outdated report or information to challenge other members.

Still
If the entrepreneur has been granted the initial visa, and they
- were genuinely doing a business
- spent 50k/200k in the UK
- created two jobs
during the past three years

They all deserve approvals of extension.


Re read my posts on this thread I am trying to concey and understand what he is up against.

All those who say "AR will be fine, I pray for you" are doing him a disservice

All those who say "its just investment/two jobs" that is not the case anymore (whether you like it or not), better adapt

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by marcnath » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:14 am

kom wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:43 pm
Thanks everyone for responses.

@marcnath: can you please advice me how to defend in AR Now? what makes my position stronger in AR?

- can i send them additional documents to the postal address as i have seen few people send additional documents in AR as well? Do they except documents? is that ok to create Premises agreement now and send it to AR team via post?

Please advice me on my refusal reason.
Unfortunately, additional documents are not accepted during AR.

It is difficult to give you arguments - it may be worth consulting a professional. However, here are some ideas to work with.
1. Premises:
You stated that you working from Home and Its family Home but you were unable to produce any agreement with your family member.

Note: - Compliance office asked me about running business from home and i answered that, this is my family house and my family member is aware that i am running business from Home and she is allowing me to run business from home. Then Officer ask me about any contract /agreement. I said if you need one then i can produce one and send it you later but officer stated that you don't need to do that in my interview.
There is no requirement under UK law to have a written contract so you never did. This was the best arrangement that felt was suitable for the state of the business as it stands. You offered to get a written agreement if needed but the offer was not taken up.
kom wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:43 pm

2. Clients:-
You stated that currently you have 4 contract but you do not have any employee at the time of interview. we can not justify that you have 4 contract and you working by your self. We would expect that business with continuous contract to either have employee or in process of employing new staff.


Note:- I clearly mention to Office during interview that my employee left the job just 1 month back and right now i am capable to handle business by my self.once i have more project/contract i will recruit more employee.
Businesses have their ups and down. And the resourcing needs to be adjusted accordingly. The business had 7 contracts, two of them that were very labour intensive and we had two employees earlier, creating almost 40 man months (? check the number) of full time jobs since the business started. The loss of business led to a decision to not hire a replacement when the employees left. We are working on new contracts and expect to hire again once new clients come on board.
kom wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:43 pm

3. Job Creation:-
You unable to provide communication detail between you and your employee.

Note: After interview i have submitted my rota/work assign to my employee schedule and i also mention that i also have my web based admin system where employee can check their daily job detail.I also showed officer my web based admin system during interview.
Evidence has been provided on how I manage the work load for the employees. In addition, I visited the employees at the customer location where they worked regularly at least _ times a week. ...... Anything more that you can add here.

Overall, I believe the CO made a mistake in only assessing the condition of the business at the time of the interview - which unfortunately is a low point of the business cycle. The CO should have assessed the business over the whole period since it started and all of the conclusions above would have been different.
So, I believe a mistake was made in arriving at the decision to refuse the extension and request you to
kindly review the same. If you need further information, documents or another interview, I would be happy to provide those.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by kom » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:57 am

Thanks Marcnath for detail explanations. Much Appreiciated.

Last question for you Marcnath:

My refusal latter is dated on 25th March 2018. I believe that i have to count 14 days from the date when i received the latter on 28th March 2018. that means my last day will be 10th April 2018.

Please correct me if i am wrong. I am asking you this question again as i can not get hold of any professional because of bank holiday.

Thanks.

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by seasky » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:23 am

kom wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:57 am
Thanks Marcnath for detail explanations. Much Appreiciated.

Last question for you Marcnath:

My refusal latter is dated on 25th March 2018. I believe that i have to count 14 days from the date when i received the latter on 28th March 2018. that means my last day will be 10th April 2018.

Please correct me if i am wrong. I am asking you this question again as i can not get hold of any professional because of bank holiday.

Thanks.
1. you will not easily find solicitors with specific experience of overcoming genuineness. Adding to the fact that we see so many case of low quality solicitors on IB.
2. You need to both tackle the lack of points for jobs AND the overarching genuiness
3. While you are not allowed documents for AR you can weave into "your story" issues that imply genuiness.

e.g. how you worked with employee, how you got your contracts etc

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by marcnath » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:17 pm

kom wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:57 am
Thanks Marcnath for detail explanations. Much Appreiciated.

Last question for you Marcnath:

My refusal latter is dated on 25th March 2018. I believe that i have to count 14 days from the date when i received the latter on 28th March 2018. that means my last day will be 10th April 2018.

Please correct me if i am wrong. I am asking you this question again as i can not get hold of any professional because of bank holiday.

Thanks.
I am not absolutely sure about this, but the letter should have stated whether you have 14 days from the date of the letter. If it does not explicitly say that, then you can assume it is 14 days from receipt - but try to avoid taking that risk.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by kom » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:44 pm

@ marcnath:

Refusal latter stated:

You have 14 calendar days after the date on which you received this decision to apply for administrative review.

I have received latter on 28th March 2018.

Thanks.

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Re: Tier 1 Ext Refused after interview -Urgent help Needed

Post by marcnath » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:52 pm

kom wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:44 pm
@ marcnath:

Refusal latter stated:

You have 14 calendar days after the date on which you received this decision to apply for administrative review.

I have received latter on 28th March 2018.

Thanks.
Ok. That’s clear then. It would be the 10th
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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