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Family member of EU National German visa application

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francescomarl
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Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by francescomarl » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:09 am

I need help with this issue. I am an EU national from Netherlands and currently in the Netherlands. My wife is from Ghana and we have been married since 2006. My wife holds a Ghanaian passport. We have two children aged 7 and 4 years and they both hold Dutch passports and live in Ghana with my wife.
My wife wants to travel to Germany with one of our children who holds a Dutch passport in December, 2018 for 12 days on a holiday trip, and my question is:
Can she exercise the right to freedom of movement as a family member of an EU citizen? In which case there is no legal requirement that she submits bank statements, pay slips, letters from her employer, letter of reference, airline tickets, proof of travel insurance, confirmed hotel bookings?

Is she entitled to a free visa or does she have to pay for the visa application?

NB: She has all the necessary documentation (eg. marriage and birth certificates, and passports of our children and a copy of my passport) to proof our relationship and she as a family member of an EU citizen.

Omi00007
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Posts: 66
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Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by Omi00007 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:55 pm

AFAIK you need to either be travelling with her or she should be joining you in Germany to qualify for free visa and no requirement of submitting bank statements under the rights of freedom of movement as a family member of an EU citizen.

If you are unable to travel with her or join her in Germany then she needs to apply for tourist visa for which she'll need to show bank statements and pay the visa fee.

francescomarl
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Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:58 am
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Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by francescomarl » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:43 pm

Thanks for the quick response but I was wondering, if I will be joining her in Germany how will she proof that?

Omi00007
Junior Member
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:33 am

Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by Omi00007 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:40 am

She can proof this by showing travel tickets and hotel reservation under your name from Netherlands to Germany or a declaration letter from yourself stating you will be joining your wife in Germany.

francescomarl
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Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:58 am
Netherlands

Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by francescomarl » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:27 pm

@Omi00007. Thank you very much Omi00007. You've been very very helpful.

Caravel88
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Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by Caravel88 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:04 am

Her own child is Dutch. She doesn't need the husband travelling.
francescomarl wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:27 pm
@Omi00007. Thank you very much Omi00007. You've been very very helpful.

Omi00007
Junior Member
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:33 am

Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by Omi00007 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:18 pm

Hi Caravel,

I am aware of non-EU spouse, children and grandchildren of EU citizen but I must admit I haven't heard of non-EU parent of EU citizen with regards to the freedom of movement rights. Can you guide me to the link for an official site, please?
Caravel88 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:04 am
Her own child is Dutch. She doesn't need the husband travelling.
francescomarl wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:27 pm
@Omi00007. Thank you very much Omi00007. You've been very very helpful.

fielddrive
Senior Member
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:03 pm

Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by fielddrive » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:45 pm

Take a letter from you that says you will join her during her travels. Also have hotel bookings with your name on it.

francescomarl
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Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:58 am
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Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by francescomarl » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:53 pm

Caravel88 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:04 am
Her own child is Dutch. She doesn't need the husband travelling.
francescomarl wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:27 pm
@Omi00007. Thank you very much Omi00007. You've been very very helpful.
Really? I thought a mother can not be dependant on her child according to one of the cases that was decided in the Superior court.

Caravel88
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Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by Caravel88 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:21 am

That would make no sense. Descendants (U21) are direct family members.

* EU citizen: anyone having the nationality of an EU country.

* Family member: this covers, for instance, the spouse, a partner in a registered partnership with an EU citizen and direct descendants under the age of 21.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Le ... 123:en:PDF

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... m%3Al33152
francescomarl wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:53 pm
Caravel88 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:04 am
Her own child is Dutch. She doesn't need the husband travelling.
francescomarl wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:27 pm
@Omi00007. Thank you very much Omi00007. You've been very very helpful.
Really? I thought a mother can not be dependant on her child according to one of the cases that was decided in the Superior court.

Omi00007
Junior Member
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:33 am

Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by Omi00007 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:22 am

Thanks for providing the links. However, my understanding is still the same as it says 'Direct Descendants of the EU citizen under the ages of 21' and no where it says parents of the EU citizen or over the age of 21... if you see my point. AFAIK in the case of parents of EU citizen (of any age) they either need to be financially or medically dependent on their EU citizen family member to qualify.
Caravel88 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:21 am
That would make no sense. Descendants (U21) are direct family members.

* EU citizen: anyone having the nationality of an EU country.

* Family member: this covers, for instance, the spouse, a partner in a registered partnership with an EU citizen and direct descendants under the age of 21.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Le ... 123:en:PDF

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... m%3Al33152
francescomarl wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:53 pm
Caravel88 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:04 am
Her own child is Dutch. She doesn't need the husband travelling.
francescomarl wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:27 pm
@Omi00007. Thank you very much Omi00007. You've been very very helpful.
Really? I thought a mother can not be dependant on her child according to one of the cases that was decided in the Superior court.

Omi00007
Junior Member
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:33 am

Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by Omi00007 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:34 am

The only instance I can find when parents have the same rights as spouse, children and direct descendants U21 is when EU citizen is working, is a pensioner or have sufficient resources and I don't think the OP's child is currently doing any of that.

Link:
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/r ... dex_en.htm

francescomarl
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Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:58 am
Netherlands

Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by francescomarl » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:26 pm

Omi00007 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:34 am
The only instance I can find when parents have the same rights as spouse, children and direct descendants U21 is when EU citizen is working, is a pensioner or have sufficient resources and I don't think the OP's child is currently doing any of that.

Link:
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/r ... dex_en.htm
I can fairly understand the point you make but I am still confused as putting the other comments in context does not give a clear picture.
I was also wondering, is it possible the Non-eu parent of an EU child may have a derived right under this circumstance? I was researching on this and I read about the following which were decided by the EUCJ:

Zambrano cases
Chen cases
Ibrahim and Teixeira cases

summaries can be found here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 4.0ext.pdf

Although these cases were related to residence and not about applying for visa, I get a sense that a Non-EU parent of an EU child may have a derived right in this particular issue under discussion.

FYI. I wrote to the German Embassy in Ghana and they confirmed the Non-EU parent travelling with an EU child did not have to pay visa fee but did not comment on whether or not she needs to submit bank statement, reference, hotel booking, etc which is not required when exercising the right to freedom of movement. They referred me to the the general visa requirements page on their website.

I also read some very interesting and much more clearer information among others from the website of vfsglobal for German visa applicants in the UK as follows:
...
1. The following family members of EEA/EU and Swiss nationals are entitled to apply for a Schengen visa as
EEA/EU and Swiss national family member, i.e. submitting fewer documents required than regular
Tourists and exempt from paying the applicable visa fee, when travelling together with their EEA/EU or
Swiss national family member:

a. Spouse
b. Parent(s) (only if child is under 18 years old or elderly parent cohabiting with his/her EEU/EA or Swiss
national child; including stepparent(s)
c. Child(ren); including stepchild(ren)
d. Registered partner

Referrence:
http://www.vfsglobal.com/germany/uk/EEA ... ember.html

gokulatti
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Location: Netherlands/Norway
Norway

Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by gokulatti » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:11 am

francescomarl wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:09 am
I need help with this issue. I am an EU national from Netherlands and currently in the Netherlands. My wife is from Ghana and we have been married since 2006. My wife holds a Ghanaian passport. We have two children aged 7 and 4 years and they both hold Dutch passports and live in Ghana with my wife.
My wife wants to travel to Germany with one of our children who holds a Dutch passport in December, 2018 for 12 days on a holiday trip, and my question is:
Can she exercise the right to freedom of movement as a family member of an EU citizen? In which case there is no legal requirement that she submits bank statements, pay slips, letters from her employer, letter of reference, airline tickets, proof of travel insurance, confirmed hotel bookings?

Is she entitled to a free visa or does she have to pay for the visa application?

NB: She has all the necessary documentation (eg. marriage and birth certificates, and passports of our children and a copy of my passport) to proof our relationship and she as a family member of an EU citizen.
Okay this is a very interesting question. I am not a lawyer please bear in mind.
The answer to your question is lies in the actual Mrs. Chen ECJ
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 2002CJ0200

Mainly ''
42
Article 1(2)(b) of Directive 90/364, which guarantees ‘dependent’ relatives in the ascending line of the holder of the right of residence the right to install themselves with the holder of the right of residence, regardless of their nationality, cannot confer a right of residence on a national of a non-member country in Mrs Chen’s situation either by reason of the emotional bonds between mother and child or on the ground that the mother’s right to enter and reside in the United Kingdom is dependent on her child’s right of residence.
43
According to the case-law of the Court, the status of ‘dependent’ member of the family of a holder of a right of residence is the result of a factual situation characterised by the fact that material support for the family member is provided by the holder of the right of residence (see, to that effect, in relation to Article 10 of Regulation No 1612/68, Case 316/85 Lebon [1987] ECR 2811, paragraphs 20 to 22).
44
In circumstances such as those of the main proceedings, the position is exactly the opposite in that the holder of the right of residence is dependent on the national of a non-member country who is her carer and wishes to accompany her. In those circumstances, Mrs Chen cannot claim to be a ‘dependent’ relative of Catherine in the ascending line within the meaning of Directive 90/364 with a view to having the benefit of a right of residence in the United Kingdom.
45
On the other hand, a refusal to allow the parent, whether a national of a Member State or a national of a non-member country, who is the carer of a child to whom Article 18 EC and Directive 90/364 grant a right of residence, to reside with that child in the host Member State would deprive the child’s right of residence of any useful effect. It is clear that enjoyment by a young child of a right of residence necessarily implies that the child is entitled to be accompanied by the person who is his or her primary carer and accordingly that the carer must be in a position to reside with the child in the host Member State for the duration of such residence (see, mutatis mutandis, in relation to Article 12 of Regulation No 1612/68, Baumbast and R, paragraphs 71 to 75).
46
For that reason alone, where, as in the main proceedings, Article 18 EC and Directive 90/364 grant a right to reside for an indefinite period in the host Member State to a young minor who is a national of another Member State, those same provisions allow a parent who is that minor’s primary carer to reside with the child in the host Member State.
47
The answer to be given to the national court must therefore be that, in circumstances like those of the main proceedings, Article 18 EC and Directive 90/364 confer on a young minor who is a national of a Member State, is covered by appropriate sickness insurance and is in the care of a parent who is a third-country national having sufficient resources for that minor not to become a burden on the public finances of the host Member State, a right to reside for an indefinite period in that State. In such circumstances, those same provisions allow a parent who is that minor’s primary carer to reside with the child in the host Member State.

Costs
48
Since these proceedings are, for the parties to the main proceedings, a step in the action pending before the national court, the decision on costs is a matter for that court. Costs incurred in submitting observations to the Court, other than the costs of those parties, are not recoverable.
On those grounds, the Court (sitting as a full Court) hereby rules:
1.
In circumstances like those of the main proceedings, Article 18 EC and Council Directive 90/364/EEC of 28 June 1990 on the right of residence confer on a young minor who is a national of a Member State, is covered by appropriate sickness insurance and is in the care of a parent who is a third-country national having sufficient resources for that minor not to become a burden on the public finances of the host Member State, a right to reside for an indefinite period in that State. In such circumstances, those same provisions allow a parent who is that minor’s primary carer to reside with the child in the host Member State. ''


Therefore in MY opinion, mother has to prove she has enough resources to support the child as well as take out insurance. The typical exemptions of not showing finances and such does not apply because of point 44 and the actual ruling point 48 based on Pt.44. And I also believe the mother will not fall under the ascending line to invoke the 3 month unconditional stay under directive 2004/38. If you really need to be sure, maybe you need a lawyer. :)

francescomarl
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Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:58 am
Netherlands

Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by francescomarl » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:07 pm

gokulatti wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:11 am
francescomarl wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:09 am
I need help with this issue. I am an EU national from Netherlands and currently in the Netherlands. My wife is from Ghana and we have been married since 2006. My wife holds a Ghanaian passport. We have two children aged 7 and 4 years and they both hold Dutch passports and live in Ghana with my wife.
My wife wants to travel to Germany with one of our children who holds a Dutch passport in December, 2018 for 12 days on a holiday trip, and my question is:
Can she exercise the right to freedom of movement as a family member of an EU citizen? In which case there is no legal requirement that she submits bank statements, pay slips, letters from her employer, letter of reference, airline tickets, proof of travel insurance, confirmed hotel bookings?

Is she entitled to a free visa or does she have to pay for the visa application?

NB: She has all the necessary documentation (eg. marriage and birth certificates, and passports of our children and a copy of my passport) to proof our relationship and she as a family member of an EU citizen.
Okay this is a very interesting question. I am not a lawyer please bear in mind.
The answer to your question is lies in the actual Mrs. Chen ECJ
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 2002CJ0200

Mainly ''
42
Article 1(2)(b) of Directive 90/364, which guarantees ‘dependent’ relatives in the ascending line of the holder of the right of residence the right to install themselves with the holder of the right of residence, regardless of their nationality, cannot confer a right of residence on a national of a non-member country in Mrs Chen’s situation either by reason of the emotional bonds between mother and child or on the ground that the mother’s right to enter and reside in the United Kingdom is dependent on her child’s right of residence.
43
According to the case-law of the Court, the status of ‘dependent’ member of the family of a holder of a right of residence is the result of a factual situation characterised by the fact that material support for the family member is provided by the holder of the right of residence (see, to that effect, in relation to Article 10 of Regulation No 1612/68, Case 316/85 Lebon [1987] ECR 2811, paragraphs 20 to 22).
44
In circumstances such as those of the main proceedings, the position is exactly the opposite in that the holder of the right of residence is dependent on the national of a non-member country who is her carer and wishes to accompany her. In those circumstances, Mrs Chen cannot claim to be a ‘dependent’ relative of Catherine in the ascending line within the meaning of Directive 90/364 with a view to having the benefit of a right of residence in the United Kingdom.
45
On the other hand, a refusal to allow the parent, whether a national of a Member State or a national of a non-member country, who is the carer of a child to whom Article 18 EC and Directive 90/364 grant a right of residence, to reside with that child in the host Member State would deprive the child’s right of residence of any useful effect. It is clear that enjoyment by a young child of a right of residence necessarily implies that the child is entitled to be accompanied by the person who is his or her primary carer and accordingly that the carer must be in a position to reside with the child in the host Member State for the duration of such residence (see, mutatis mutandis, in relation to Article 12 of Regulation No 1612/68, Baumbast and R, paragraphs 71 to 75).
46
For that reason alone, where, as in the main proceedings, Article 18 EC and Directive 90/364 grant a right to reside for an indefinite period in the host Member State to a young minor who is a national of another Member State, those same provisions allow a parent who is that minor’s primary carer to reside with the child in the host Member State.
47
The answer to be given to the national court must therefore be that, in circumstances like those of the main proceedings, Article 18 EC and Directive 90/364 confer on a young minor who is a national of a Member State, is covered by appropriate sickness insurance and is in the care of a parent who is a third-country national having sufficient resources for that minor not to become a burden on the public finances of the host Member State, a right to reside for an indefinite period in that State. In such circumstances, those same provisions allow a parent who is that minor’s primary carer to reside with the child in the host Member State.

Costs
48
Since these proceedings are, for the parties to the main proceedings, a step in the action pending before the national court, the decision on costs is a matter for that court. Costs incurred in submitting observations to the Court, other than the costs of those parties, are not recoverable.
On those grounds, the Court (sitting as a full Court) hereby rules:
1.
In circumstances like those of the main proceedings, Article 18 EC and Council Directive 90/364/EEC of 28 June 1990 on the right of residence confer on a young minor who is a national of a Member State, is covered by appropriate sickness insurance and is in the care of a parent who is a third-country national having sufficient resources for that minor not to become a burden on the public finances of the host Member State, a right to reside for an indefinite period in that State. In such circumstances, those same provisions allow a parent who is that minor’s primary carer to reside with the child in the host Member State. ''


Therefore in MY opinion, mother has to prove she has enough resources to support the child as well as take out insurance. The typical exemptions of not showing finances and such does not apply because of point 44 and the actual ruling point 48 based on Pt.44. And I also believe the mother will not fall under the ascending line to invoke the 3 month unconditional stay under directive 2004/38. If you really need to be sure, maybe you need a lawyer. :)

Thanks for the case reference.

francescomarl
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Posts: 8
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Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by francescomarl » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:34 pm

Hello Everyone,
I am back again with a related question. Following from the experiences shared and the advice of all of you, I decided to write a letter of declaration and consent, stating that my wife and child will be joining me in Germany for a short holiday. Attached will be hotel booking bearing both our names.
However, I have also read from other posts where people have been refused visa in similar circumstance where they were told they did not show plausible cause for wanting to travel to the member country. I am at a loss as to how my wife and daughter (dutch) can show plausible cause for our planned holiday in Germany?
In another case, the applicant was refused among other things for not attaching the very things (bank statement, payslips, health insurance etc etc) the directive states should not be added to the application.
My question is
1. There is the option of applying on her own for a tourist schengen visa for Germany or applying as a non-EU family member of an EU citizen. I don't know which of these two options will be her best bet?
2. Should she attach these non-required supporting documents like bank statement, payslips, travel insurance, hotel booking, etc, even if she is applying as a non-eu family member of an eu national so that some uninformed ECO does not refused her on these grounds?

francescomarl
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Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:58 am
Netherlands

Re: Family member of EU National German visa application

Post by francescomarl » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:55 pm

Omi00007 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:40 am
She can proof this by showing travel tickets and hotel reservation under your name from Netherlands to Germany or a declaration letter from yourself stating you will be joining your wife in Germany.
Hello Everyone,
I am back again with a related question. Following from the experiences shared and the advice of all of you, I decided to write a letter of declaration and consent, stating that my wife and child will be joining me in Germany for a short holiday. Attached will be hotel booking bearing both our names.
However, I have also read from other posts where people have been refused visa in similar circumstance where they were told they did not show plausible cause for wanting to travel to the member country. I am at a loss as to how my wife and daughter (dutch) can show plausible cause for our planned holiday in Germany?
In another case, the applicant was refused among other things for not attaching the very things (bank statement, payslips, health insurance etc etc) the directive states should not be added to the application.
My question is
1. There is the option of applying on her own for a tourist schengen visa for Germany or applying as a non-EU family member of an EU citizen. I don't know which of these two options will be her best bet?
2. Should she attach these non-required supporting documents like bank statement, payslips, travel insurance, hotel booking, etc, even if she is applying as a non-eu family member of an eu national so that some uninformed ECO does not refused her on these grounds?

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