UK Spouse visa & CTA

Hi all

Wondering what the situation is, in regards to the Common travel area and UK spouse visas.

I know as a british citizen I can go to Ireland and work as much as I like without and special requirements, but what about my wife who holds a UK spouse visa? Can't seem to find anything about that.

I know under EU rules, if I go to Ireland (or any EU state) she can enter and work on the basis of accompanying me (or joining me). But this is on the basis of moving to live to that state, not continuing one residence in the UK (and therefore a UK spouse visa would be unnecessary, just the basis of being married is required)

It's a bit of a grey area.

UK spouse visa generally allows 180 days (half a year) "apart" from each other, wondering if she would have any problems working in Ireland, and whether that would "consume" any days apart.

I work away a fair bit in course of my work, and done a fair bit of work in Ireland too, so just trying to plan what we can and cant do?

It's not a grey area. There are very clear rules. CTA are for UK and Irish citizens only. I had to spend 110 euro for a UK visa if I just drive from Dublin to Donegal as it crosses the border several times. 10 years ago there were very few checks but now it's getting more and more common. As a foreign national, you don't want anything adverse on your immigration record.

First you mentioned "UK spouse visa". Is this a short term visit visa or a long term biometric residence permit?

If she has a short term UK visit visa, certain nations are allowed to travel to Ireland with the same visa. If her nationality is not on this list, she will have to apply for a visa. However this is strictly for tourism and she will not be allowed to work. If she wants to work, she needs to get a job offer first, apply for a work permit and then a long term visa.

If she has a long term biometric residence permit (as you are married, she can always apply for one in the UK if you live together), things are a bit easier. If she wants to come to Ireland and work here, you have to either travel with her, or come to Ireland before she does and gets a proof of address.
You two then need to sort out your accommodation, get proof of address, open bank account, buy comprehensive health insurance for her, go to the immigration office or garda station to get a stamp 4EUFAM for her. She is not allowed to work until she has this stamp. She will also need to apply for a re-entry visa to travel between UK and Ireland (and her UK visa still needs to be valid).

You non-EU wife can't work in Ireland while joining you in your short trips, at least not legally anyways.

If you want her to be able to work in Ireland she will need to apply for a Stamp 4 EUFAM on the basis of you - the EU citizen - moving completely to Ireland, that means residing and working here. The big question is what will happen to your EU rights with Brexit just around the corner.

This is the process to follow: http://inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/EU+Treaty+Rights

In addition to the advice already give, be aware the the UK and Ireland share immigration information and data.

littlerr wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:03 pm

It's not a grey area. There are very clear rules.

A lot of things are usually not that clear otherwise we wouldnt have these forums and agencies and the many court cases have proven interpretation plays a large part.

To me its grey, because the ruling for a UK spouse visa is that you can be apart from each other for 180 days and that is ok.

The EU freedom of movement then lets us go to another member state, and based on the above, if its under 180 days should not invalidate our visa.

Then assuming it did as we would be claiming to 'live' in ireland, said EU residency permit should grant the same right of residency back in the UK.

To me this is a very grey area. Just as Brexit is very grey area too.

CTA are for UK and Irish citizens only.

this is what I have read, and it may be the fact it is only for those parties, spouses are therefore excluded but without an explicit statement claiming as such, difficult to know. Usually most immigration aspects state the status of family members which I have not really found with this .

My experience with working abroad as a posted worker, general 'human rights' allows spouses to accompany and work also.

And with the CTA, it removes the 'posted worker' aspect as a British person, whether that is optional, i would presume.

As a posted worker, as is the basis with most EU things my wife should obtain equal treatment and this includes working.

The only difference between posting and 'moving' to another EU state should be the period of stay allowed.

you mentioned "UK spouse visa". Is this a short term visit visa or a long term biometric residence permit?

BRP, 2.5 year settlement visa

Incidentally when we got married and I was working in ireland (and she was still a student there) immigration didnt want to EU4FAM stamp her, one being the lack of a UK spouse visa (which was impossible to of even had at that time since its a long process) but this again are contradicting elements, because they both assume residence in their states.

moving completely to Ireland, that means residing and working here.

this is my understanding, but there is also the 'posted' worker aspect, which I should fall under as someone still residing in UK and this should, for EU states, allow my wife the appropriate working rights ?

In addition to the advice already give, be aware the the UK and Ireland share immigration information and data.

only plan on doing legal and correct things so this is ok, not trying to sneak her into Ireland or anything.. Whats already on record is probably already worse and didnt stop our visa application in the slightest. Honesty is the best policy!

My wife used to be a student in ireland, she has friends there etc so would be nice to know if she would be able to work there when im there for an upcoming job.

lukus wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:20 pm

moving completely to Ireland, that means residing and working here.

this is my understanding, but there is also the 'posted' worker aspect, which I should fall under as someone still residing in UK and this should, for EU states, allow my wife the appropriate working rights ?

Unfortunately that's not the case across the EU, your wife will be able to join you in your work trips to other EU countries but she won't be allowed to work unless you (EU citizen) are legally residing there.

Your company could sponsor her for a work permit or visa to Ireland or you will need to apply for a Stamp 4 EUFAM on her behalf, those are the options available for you at the moment.

To me its grey, because the ruling for a UK spouse visa is that you can be apart from each other for 180 days and that is ok.

There is NO rule such as this for a UK spouse settlement visa.

CR001 wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:38 pm

To me its grey, because the ruling for a UK spouse visa is that you can be apart from each other for 180 days and that is ok.

There is NO rule such as this for a UK spouse settlement visa.

Not so much a "rule" for the spouse visa, but subsequent extension or ILR for other visas types, 90 days for british citizenship.

If memory serves me correct there is no such limit for spouses but beyond 180 days it 'would come into question'.

Unless you are saying otherwise.

Unfortunately that's not the case across the EU

any reasoning behind that? I can only really go by various resources online i.e europa and the various article.

Generally worded as, under 3 months is ok with no formalities, over 3 months, only defined as "working" in the member state (not employeed in the member state) which should provision posted workers alongside employee and self employed?

lukus wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:17 pm

CR001 wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:38 pm

To me its grey, because the ruling for a UK spouse visa is that you can be apart from each other for 180 days and that is ok.

There is NO rule such as this for a UK spouse settlement visa.

Not so much a "rule" for the spouse visa, but subsequent extension or ILR for other visas types, 90 days for british citizenship.

If memory serves me correct there is no such limit for spouses but beyond 180 days it 'would come into question'.

Unless you are saying otherwise.

Unfortunately that's not the case across the EU

any reasoning behind that? I can only really go by various resources online i.e europa and the various article.

Generally worded as, under 3 months is ok with no formalities, over 3 months, only defined as "working" in the member state (not employeed in the member state) which should provision posted workers alongside employee and self employed?

You can always contact the EU to get some explanation, they have a phone number available to take queries and concerns regarding immigration.

I don't know if it will help your personal circumstances since in a month or so you won't be a EU citizen anymore but at least you will get some clarification.

I know that in order to work legally in Ireland a non-EU citizen must have a valid work permit or visa and a PPS number, your non-EU wife by accompanying you won't have either of those so if she enters any employment will be likely against the law.

From what I can understand, you want your wife to access labour market in Ireland legally but also retain both of your ordinary residence status in the UK. This is simply not possible. Your ordinary residence can be in one country only. CTA has nothing to do with this. You might be able to travel between the two countries with no immigration control present, but rules still apply and she risks being deported if she's caught crossing the border without a valid paper.

So if your residence is in the UK, your wife cannot travel to Ireland, let alone work here.

If you want your wife to work in Ireland, you have to declare to the immigration that you are moving your main residence to be in Ireland. Logistically it means you need to have an address here. Your wife needs to go to immigration office to register for Stamp 4EUFAM, and both of you will need to apply for a PPS Number. You will need your payroll to be from Ireland and pay Irish tax (which is a hell lot more than that in the UK).

max307 wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:31 pm

You can always contact the EU to get some explanation

Have done in the past for other situations /circumstances (via email), generally has been a bit lackluster in respect to their responses (IMHO).

In the end (previously) I had to e-mail someone 'high up' in Irish immigration who effectively said they should have (previously) stamped my wife as EU4FAM.

I don't know if it will help your personal circumstances since in a month or so you won't be a EU citizen anymore but at least you will get some clarification.

true, didn't think it was that close to be fair, but is also why I wondered if there was a mechanisim for the CTA for spouses for the longer term of things.

Thanks for the replies though!

From what I can understand, you want your wife to access labour market in Ireland legally but also retain both of your ordinary residence status in the UK. This is simply not possible. Your ordinary residence can be in one country only.

If I visit ireland to work under 3 months, my wife if accompanying should be stamped with the appropiate EU 4 FAM and certainly allows her to work.

This has already been confirmed by a higher up @ Ireland immigration and their policy department.

So I am not sure why it is not possible.

But this wasnt intended as an EU aspect, but more on the CTA and whether it had any provisions (which it appears not)