Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Epsilonn · Post by **Epsilonn** » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:40 am

Hello, my name is Nick and I am following up on some of my old threads / posts on this forum. So, I am a Romanian citizen and, at the moment, I am working in The UK.

My girlfriend and fiancée, who is from Syria, finally got her ID and passport for international protection in Romania (same rights as refugees) after she applied recently, while on visit visa in Romania, both valid for 2 years. Now she lives in my aunt's apartment, waiting for documents and for my next visit to Romania.

Now we can finally get married (still waiting for the passport at the moment though) as, before changing her status to refugee, we needed her letter of no impediment. This letter of no impediment was impossible to get due to religious restrictions and the only way to get it from the Embassy was to first come from Syria... In Syria, the Internal Affairs could not accept me being Christian and her being Muslim (she is only Muslim in documents btw.). The only way was for me to convert to Islam... or for her to apply for asylum, which needed to happen considering what is going on in Syria.

I am sorry for the long introduction. Basically, I want her in The UK, legally, with me so I have a few questions and maybe you have more experience:

1. After we get married in Romania, she gets a 1 year stay there and we get the opportunity to apply for a 5 years permit which will make us, as a family, look stronger in front of The UK authorities (because applying for that permit in Romania requires 3 months of checks from authorities, interviews to point out we are actually a family and we don't bend immigration rules, which we don't...) when we want to apply for the EEA family permit in The UK.

Should we go this way? Will she be required to go to The UK Embassy in Romania when we apply for this? I don't prefer this way as we have known each other for over two years and have visited each other in the past in Beirut until I got her to stay in Romania. All I want is to be married to her, which I can now, as well as her next to me, in The UK - on this we are working at the moment.

2. What if I apply for a fiancee visa in The UK? But she has refugee status in Romania... would this work?

3. Should we just get married in Romania and then bring her in The UK without applying for the 5 years permit in Romania first? This would be the option I prefer...

What do you think? I have asked many questions on this forum and I also found helpful replies and we took it step by step. What do you think the best option would be?

4. P.S. How do you think Brexit is going to affect our situation in the following year?

Many thanks and I look forward to your replies,
Nick

Epsilonn · Post by **Epsilonn** » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:06 pm

Bump... anybody? An opinion?

askmeplz82 · Post by **askmeplz82** » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:17 pm

Just Get married in Romania and then apply for EEA family permit in the British Embassy . if you are successful she can come with that VISA

She won't get EEA residence card which is valid for 5 years in Romania because you can't exercise treaty right in your own country. If you have worked for example in Germany and then she can apply for EEA residence card and then she can travel freely to the UK with that Residence card

Epsilonn · Post by **Epsilonn** » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:52 pm

Hi askmeplz82, but after marriage she get a 1 year stay in RO, which, in case we want to stay in RO, we need to apply for a long stay permit - which is valid for 5 years. I don't understand why you said we cannot do that... She would be my wife in my country where I am from... what do people do in these situations? I already informed myself about this unless you are talking about something else. Is it the article 10 card you are talking about as some things are confusing for me too...

Regarding coming to the UK, we want to do this without applying for that 5 years permit in Romania (the one you said we cannot apply for...) but if we do apply for that in Romania and we get it, we show proof of a stronger relationship for the EEA Family permit for The UK.

But... I work and live in The UK. I want to bring her directly here as applying for the 5 years permit in Romania requires me to be there for a few months and people will control us and interview us etc...

Wouldn't me bringing her in The UK be some kind of circumvention? Because who would interview us in The UK? Who would control us here? Would we succeed on the EEA Permit application without the 5 years permit.... this is what I need to understand....

Please read carefully and understand my frustration. What is your opinion on this?

askmeplz82 · Post by **askmeplz82** » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:11 pm

If you are a non-EEA national who holds a valid genuine residence card, issued to you as the family member of an EEA national who is exercising free movement rights in another EEA State (i.e. not your EEA relative’s Member State of nationality) under Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC (the ‘Free Movement Directive’), you may use this document for travel to the UK if you are accompanying your EEA national relative here, or joining your EEA national relative in the UK.

For example, the non-EEA spouse of a Romanian national who is living and working in Italy may be issued with an Article 10 residence card by the Italian authorities.

Documents issued on any other basis, for example (biometric) residence permits issued under the national law of another Member State are not acceptable and do not exempt the holder from the requirement to obtain an EEA family permit.

For example, a non-EEA spouse of a ROMANIAN national living in ROMANIA will usually hold a residence permit issued under ROMANIAN domestic law. Therefore, a United Kingdom EEA family permit is required for travel and entry to the UK.

So because you are working here in the UK She can apply for an EEA family permit to join you.

Epsilonn · Post by **Epsilonn** » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:46 pm

Ok but what about the article 10 card, valid for 5 years, obtained after people from Immigration Office perform controls over a period of a few months to check if the couple acts as a family?

Is the above mentioned document required for a stronger proof of family bond for applying for the EEA family permit? Or we should apply directly for the EEA family permit in case the lack of the 5 years permit (article 10 card) would not pose a risk in obtaining the EEA Family Permit?

Also I read that the 5 years permit (article 10 card) is accepted on its own by The UK without requiring the EEA Family Permit... what is your take on this?

I myself want to go directly with the EEA Permit because I work AND live in The UK but, in the same time, I don't want to jeopardize this because we don't have stronger proof for family bond aka the 5 years permit (article 10 card)...

What do you think?

ALKB · Post by **ALKB** » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:15 pm

Epsilonn wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:40 am
Hello, my name is Nick and I am following up on some of my old threads / posts on this forum. So, I am a Romanian citizen and, at the moment, I am working in The UK.

My girlfriend and fiancée, who is from Syria, finally got her ID and passport for international protection in Romania (same rights as refugees) after she applied recently, while on visit visa in Romania, both valid for 2 years. Now she lives in my aunt's apartment, waiting for documents and for my next visit to Romania.

Now we can finally get married (still waiting for the passport at the moment though) as, before changing her status to refugee, we needed her letter of no impediment. This letter of no impediment was impossible to get due to religious restrictions and the only way to get it from the Embassy was to first come from Syria... In Syria, the Internal Affairs could not accept me being Christian and her being Muslim (she is only Muslim in documents btw.). The only way was for me to convert to Islam... or for her to apply for asylum, which needed to happen considering what is going on in Syria.

I am sorry for the long introduction. Basically, I want her in The UK, legally, with me so I have a few questions and maybe you have more experience:

1. After we get married in Romania, she gets a 1 year stay there and we get the opportunity to apply for a 5 years permit which will make us, as a family, look stronger in front of The UK authorities (because applying for that permit in Romania requires 3 months of checks from authorities, interviews to point out we are actually a family and we don't bend immigration rules, which we don't...) when we want to apply for the EEA family permit in The UK.

Should we go this way? Will she be required to go to The UK Embassy in Romania when we apply for this? I don't prefer this way as we have known each other for over two years and have visited each other in the past in Beirut until I got her to stay in Romania. All I want is to be married to her, which I can now, as well as her next to me, in The UK - on this we are working at the moment.

2. What if I apply for a fiancee visa in The UK? But she has refugee status in Romania... would this work?

3. Should we just get married in Romania and then bring her in The UK without applying for the 5 years permit in Romania first? This would be the option I prefer...

What do you think? I have asked many questions on this forum and I also found helpful replies and we took it step by step. What do you think the best option would be?

4. P.S. How do you think Brexit is going to affect our situation in the following year?

Many thanks and I look forward to your replies,
Nick

After getting married in Romania, she applies for an EEA Family Permit (valid 6 months) at the UK Embassy.

Only after she arrives in the UK, she can apply for a Residence Card for family members of EEA nationals (valid 5 years).

Nobody knows how Brexit will affect all of us, all may be well or if the UK crashes out of the EU without a deal, you both may have no legal status in the UK after Brexit (but I think that would be unlikely).

Epsilonn · Post by **Epsilonn** » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:50 am

Hi ALKB, it sounds amazing what you say but... do you think that not having that resident card (article 10 card) from RO will affect our application for the EEA permit? As this is in fact what we want to do.

Because I imagine we can get that 5 years residence card from RO too... and the rest I wrote in this topic.

I want to bring her in The UK without the authorities thinking this is a 'convenience marriage'... you understand what I mean.

But, assuming all is good with the EEA permit, in the UK we will apply for that residence card or article 10 card the same way as we would apply in Romania? That I don't know. And to get that residence card we need to pass interviews here and authorities will perform check on us?... because I am very ok with that as long as we are in The UK and I work... But I don't know these things... can you please help me on this?

ALKB · Post by **ALKB** » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:50 pm

Epsilonn wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:50 am
Hi ALKB, it sounds amazing what you say but... do you think that not having that resident card (article 10 card) from RO will affect our application for the EEA permit? As this is in fact what we want to do.

Because I imagine we can get that 5 years residence card from RO too... and the rest I wrote in this topic.

I want to bring her in The UK without the authorities thinking this is a 'convenience marriage'... you understand what I mean.

But, assuming all is good with the EEA permit, in the UK we will apply for that residence card or article 10 card the same way as we would apply in Romania? That I don't know. And to get that residence card we need to pass interviews here and authorities will perform check on us?... because I am very ok with that as long as we are in The UK and I work... But I don't know these things... can you please help me on this?

You want to apply for a Residence Card for family members of EEA nationals in Romania, as in for living in Romania? Why? How, if you are not actually living there? The only way you could apply in Romania under EU rules is under the Surinder Singh regulations but that would require your spouse to have previously lived with you in an EU country other than Romania and then RETURN there to live, so I don't see how this is applicable to your situation.

For the initial EEA Family Permit application (valid 6 months, so she can accompany you or enter the UK to join you there) the most important bit of evidence will be your marriage certificate.

Once she is in the UK with you, she applies for the Residence Card, which can only be done in-country = within the UK in your case. You will need to show that you are exercising treaty rights = working in your case. You will need to show payslips and corresponding bank statements to prove that your work is genuine and effective. The authorities may or may not ask both or either of you for an interview, they may or may not call your employer.

Epsilonn · Post by **Epsilonn** » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:12 am

ALKB, I thank you very much for your answers and I appreciate your patience. Now to put things in practice.

All the best,
Nick

Epsilonn · Post by **Epsilonn** » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:19 am

Hello all again, at the moment me and my wife's situation is as follows (I will quickly reiterate my story):

I am a Romanian working and living in The UK for the past almost 5 years (I applied for pre-settlement due to Brexit and I sent my passport over for checking) and my wife (Syrian nationality) is in Romania now waiting for me to bring her in The UK. The documents that we have for her (to get us across the border) are the marriage certificate (from Romania), her passport with international protection status and her temporary residence card valid for one year (obtained after marriage) that states 'family member of EU citizen'.

Now my questions are:

1. Do we still need to apply for the EEA Family Permit?
2. Is my wife's residence card the article 10 card?
3. Online if I check 'entering the UK with the article 10 card' makes me confused as it makes me believe (I will give an example here based on what I read online) that if, for example, my wife would have gotten her residence card issued by another member state (like Germany etc...), other than the one of my nationality (Romania), then we had had no need for the EEA Family Permit... So basically it makes me believe that because I am from Romania and my wife has her residence card issued in Romania, we NEED to apply for EEA Family Permit to enter The UK together (I will accompany her anyway). Can someone please clarify?

Thank you,
Nicu

Richard W · Post by **Richard W** » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:35 pm

Epsilonn wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:19 am
2. Is my wife's residence card the article 10 card?

No. If it were, it would be valid for 5 years.

Epsilonn wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:19 am
1. Do we still need to apply for the EEA Family Permit?

Only to fly to the UK, or just possibly for a less direct ferry route.

In principle, your passports and Romanian marriage certificate will enable you to cross, as of right, from Romania to Hungary, traverse the Schengen zone from Hungary to a channel port, and then pass transposed British immigration control at the channel port to enter the UK. In principle, you could take a train from Bucharest to London; unfortunately I don't know enough to advise on the consequences of missing a connection because of a hold up by Immigration en route.

The only valid reason to refuse you two, assuming your wife does not have dangerous tendencies we are unaware of, would be a reasonable belief that your marriage was one of convenience. You've seen how suspicious some posters here are of your wife's motives; I suspect Immigration Officers may be more suspicious.

Epsilonn wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:19 am
3. Online if I check 'entering the UK with the article 10 card' makes me confused as it makes me believe (I will give an example here based on what I read online) that if, for example, my wife would have gotten her residence card issued by another member state (like Germany etc...), other than the one of my nationality (Romania), then we had had no need for the EEA Family Permit... So basically it makes me believe that because I am from Romania and my wife has her residence card issued in Romania, we NEED to apply for EEA Family Permit to enter The UK together (I will accompany her anyway). Can someone please clarify?

See answers above.

ariskar · Post by **ariskar** » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:14 pm

Your spouse/fiancé can get an EEA family permit or the recent EU scheme equivalent to come to the UK for 6 months.

However! Before applying for a EU pre-settled / Family person of European Union citizen resident card, she would have to apply within the UK for her refugee protected status to be from the UK and her Romania refugee protected status to lapse/be withdrawn.

Upon becoming resident of a different country to the one that granted you refugee status, you have to apply for the refugee protection at your new country of ordinary residence.

Assuming this is due to marriage it shouldn't be difficult to obtain.

However, do not expect a straightforward process for EU residency status for your non-EEA refugee in another country spouse. I think you may have significant issues in getting your fiance a EU route UK visa without being married.

If your fiance can obtain a valid national passport (Syria) after you get married (this would most likely invalidate the refugee status if Romania finds out), you can apply on the regular spouse route, as for any non-EEA spouse of EU citizen resident doing qualifying activity in the UK.

Epsilonn · Post by **Epsilonn** » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:15 am

Thank you for the answers. But she is not my fiancee! We are married now. I got a bit confused I am sorry... why would we need a train from Bucharest to London? Or to go to Hungary?

So... we have her passport granting refugee status in Romania, we have a residence card for Romania as family member of EU citizen, her Syrian passport is with the police because we want to keep that protection status.

We applied for EEA Family Permit and now we wait to go to that TLSContact center in Romania for the appointment.

Online when we made the application there is no way to 'tell' the application that she is refugee so I made a note there. That is because they were asking for Syrian passport! So I need to know if her International Protection passport is ok for the passport when we go to that appointment.

And we want to fly to The UK when the time comes. Why would we go to Hungary and take a weird route? Please help understand.

Thank you,
Nick

ariskar · Post by **ariskar** » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:07 pm

Epsilonn wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:15 am
Thank you for the answers. But she is not my fiancee! We are married now. I got a bit confused I am sorry... why would we need a train from Bucharest to London? Or to go to Hungary?

So... we have her passport granting refugee status in Romania, we have a residence card for Romania as family member of EU citizen, her Syrian passport is with the police because we want to keep that protection status.

We applied for EEA Family Permit and now we wait to go to that TLSContact center in Romania for the appointment.

Online when we made the application there is no way to 'tell' the application that she is refugee so I made a note there. That is because they were asking for Syrian passport! So I need to know if her International Protection passport is ok for the passport when we go to that appointment.

And we want to fly to The UK when the time comes. Why would we go to Hungary and take a weird route? Please help understand.

Thank you,
Nick

I am not a qualified advisor and should take my words as such. I have lived in both Romania and UK.

What I would do in your case:
1. Check first page of (blue) convention (1951) travel document issued to your spouse by Romania if she/he is eligible to travel to the UK without a visa (for a stay up to 90 days). If unclear, contact UK embassy in Romania and ask about her entitlement to travel visa-free. If yes go to 3, if no go to 2.
2. Apply for EU family permit (6 months) for your spouse to join you in the UK. More info on government website: https://www.gov.uk/family-permit. You need to use TLS (or other provider in other country) for biometric enrolment of your spouse as part of your EU family permit application.
3. Travel to the UK with your spouse. Use a flight. A lot of flights to London and other cities directly from Romania. Ignore other posts, you do not need to use a nuisance land route*.
4. Apply for EU pre-settled status for your spouse (online). She should recieve a biometric residence card with it as she didn't have one when she entered.
5. Apply for a convention travel document (refugee) from the UK (subsidiary protection) before you wish to travel with your wife abroad. She cannot be regular resident of another country (UK) and still hold refugee
residency in Romania. Your spouse would be protected by UK, the country of your ordinary residence. Your spouse could obtain a residence card in Romania at any later date on the basis of your marriage ("permis de sedere temporara membru familie cet roman"), or visit Romania for up to 90 days using the UK travel document (this one I know for sure it is visa free).

The point I was trying to make, it is not permitted to retain refugee related leave to remain (visa) in another EU country (Romania) and be ordinary resident (with resident permit / visa of any category) in another country (UK). That said, it does not mean that your spouse would lose the "refugee" status. She would just avail protection from the new country of residence (UK). Romania is monitoring and scanning passports at both entry and exit at present. They would know she is/has been absent for long (if she lives in another country, the UK) However, becoming residence as a spouse she would not have to go through the long and painful route of a new assylum claim in the UK. The downside is that she would not be eligible to become permanent resident or settle as refugee in the UK (SET P route). She would have to go through the EU Settled status scheme (or its equivalent in the future) after 5 years of continuous residence.

*Only reason I would use a land route would be if TLS does not give you an appointment soon enough. Then you would be able to travel to Calais (visa free) with your spouse and be able to get a permission to enter UK on the spot, avoiding the EU family permit process. I know people who did this, however it bears some risk of delay and significant of travel effort.

Good luck and keep us updated!

Epsilonn · Post by **Epsilonn** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:08 am

Hello @ariskar and thank you for the invaluable answer. Before I learn everything as I have to go in person to the police station as I am in Romania right now with my wife trying to figure out the rest of this story. After that maybe I call a lawyer although I honestly lost faith in them.

My biggest concern is that the UKVI states in the Family Permit application (should we need it) that the original documents from Syria are required without giving the option to replace them with subsidiary protection documents so I am a bit worried before going to Bucharest with documents that I am not 100% sure they would accept.

Can't we just buy plane tickets and just try to fly to UK and see what happens. We have ALL documents, even a work contract for my wife in The UK! All translated and legalized, even church ceremony certificate, everything to prove we are a family.... so why would it be so complicated. A lawyer actually suggested we go this way but it would just be embarrassing in case we get sent back to RO at The UK border... She also suggested that we could be allowed to create the Family Permit at the UK border.

I called UKVI and I paid over the phone for the conversation only to hear 'I don't know' and 'we cannot help you'. I paid lawyers in the past, both from Romania and The UK just to get in a bigger mess that we were already in.

Again, I will check everything you wrote but what do you think of what I mentioned in this latest post?

Kind regards,
Nicu

Richard W · Post by **Richard W** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:52 pm

Epsilonn wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:15 am
I got a bit confused I am sorry... why would we need a train from Bucharest to London? Or to go to Hungary?

Bucharest to Calais is a long way to walk. If you try flying without an EEA family permit, your wife is very likely not to be allowed onto the plane.

Epsilonn · Post by **Epsilonn** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:08 pm

Thank you for the answer. I will look into that. What about the passport being from Subsidiary Protection and UKVI not giving the option to choose this kind of document and only stating that the original Syrian documents are required?

Richard W · Post by **Richard W** » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:25 am

Epsilonn wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:08 pm
What about the passport being from Subsidiary Protection and UKVI not giving the option to choose this kind of document and only stating that the original Syrian documents are required?

Politely insist that TLSContact accept that travel document; remind them that it is the place of UKVI to reject that document if it is not adequate. You can possibly add that such documents can be acceptable under Schengen rules, which implement the same EU law. Note that ethnic Russians living in Lithuania who are not Lithuanian citizens get Lithuanian aliens' passports and that these passports are acceptable. I fear UKVI may take a long time to make a decision - your wife's case may be referred to a senior caseworker for a decision, and some of them may be very busy with the EU settlement scheme, where seemingly complicated cases (> 5 years residence, but not clearly qualifying for ILR) are being dealt with slowly, if at all.

Have you checked the validity of the travel document? Is it supposed to be acceptable as a passport for your journey to the UK? Some passports are restricted as to what countries they can be used in; this is most notably the case for temporary passports.

Epsilonn · Post by **Epsilonn** » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:15 am

Hi Richard and thank you so much for getting back to us. The passport is new and is valid for 2 years and it also bear the newly changed surname and address post-marriage to be in line with the other documents. I know these details are not important for crossing the border as there are the others to support our marriage but I had to mention here.

It states International Protection on it... all people from police and from the refugee camp say the passport is fine to travel outside but we want to make sure before we travel to the capital because of all the complications in general...

Ohh, I forgot to mention that in the Family Permit application I took advantage of all character limit fields and wrote as much relevant content as possible including the reason to why we used this passport whereas online we were not given the option. Is that ok?

Where in the Law do I find more about this kind of passport and where can I learn if it is actually the document for this application or not?

Kind regards,
Nicu

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Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

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Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO

Re: Marriage route for Romanian citizen from UK and Syrian refugee from RO