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Stamp change question.

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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water_tank1
Junior Member
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:54 am
Ireland

Stamp change question.

Post by water_tank1 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:24 pm

Hi all,

I am wondering if someone can help put my mind at ease.

I am a dual UK/Ireland citizen and my wife is Non eu who holds stamp 4 EUFAM until 2022.

I plan to apply for her citizenship once she meets the requirements later this year.

My question is because I am now a Irish citizen by FBR naturalization (2 years ago) do I have to change my wifes stamp from Stamp 4 EUFAM to Stamp 4?

I did email the citizenship office and they basically said she is eligible once she meets the minimum requirements but said absoloutly nothing about change in stamps even though I asked on the email to them.

I appreciate any help you can provide.

Finepaddy
Member
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:46 pm
Mood:
Norway

Re: Stamp change question.

Post by Finepaddy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:31 pm

They wont tell u but why u want to change?
On EUfam u can travel together without Visa in any eu country.
For stamp 4 they might ask u gnib card fee.
Finepaddy becomes badpaddy :mrgreen:

shpirtshqipe
Member of Standing
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 10:33 am

Re: Stamp change question.

Post by shpirtshqipe » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:04 pm

Finepaddy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:31 pm
They wont tell u but why u want to change?
On EUfam u can travel together without Visa in any eu country.
For stamp 4 they might ask u gnib card fee.
The OP is asking if he is on the right path without it affecting the citizenship of the spouse given himself being a dual national. This has nothing to do whether he suddenly wants to change Stamp because I don’t think that’s the case here.

Recent INIS guidance suggests that irrespective of a Deal or No-deal Brexit scenario the rights of family members of EU Citizens who hold EUFAM through a British Citizen will not be affected. Either way you’re covered so I wouldn’t think it is necessary to change your Stamp at present.

See link:
ireland/new-for-eufam-stamp-holders-of- ... 76947.html

Best Regards

water_tank1
Junior Member
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:54 am
Ireland

Re: Stamp change question.

Post by water_tank1 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:52 am

Hey Guys,

Thanks for your replies,

Thankfully we and others are covered in either scenario of the outcome of brexit (it's a complete mess and I wish it would just be cancelled)

What I'm trying to ascertain by asking about change stamps is once I apply for my wifes citizenship, does she need to be on stamp 4 rather than Eufam to apply for citizenship based on a Irish national? or eufam will be fine too?

Kind regards

Finepaddy
Member
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:46 pm
Mood:
Norway

Re: Stamp change question.

Post by Finepaddy » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:05 pm

shpirtshqipe wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:04 pm
Finepaddy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:31 pm
They wont tell u but why u want to change?
On EUfam u can travel together without Visa in any eu country.
For stamp 4 they might ask u gnib card fee.
The OP is asking if he is on the right path without it affecting the citizenship of the spouse given himself being a dual national. This has nothing to do whether he suddenly wants to change Stamp because I don’t think that’s the case here.

Recent INIS guidance suggests that irrespective of a Deal or No-deal Brexit scenario the rights of family members of EU Citizens who hold EUFAM through a British Citizen will not be affected. Either way you’re covered so I wouldn’t think it is necessary to change your Stamp at present.

See link:
ireland/new-for-eufam-stamp-holders-of- ... 76947.html

Best Regards
If UK wont allow eu citizens then simply Ireland will refuse British national too, u think till now they have any solution for Brexit.
Finepaddy becomes badpaddy :mrgreen:

shpirtshqipe
Member of Standing
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 10:33 am

Re: Stamp change question.

Post by shpirtshqipe » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:52 pm

Finepaddy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:05 pm
shpirtshqipe wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:04 pm
Finepaddy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:31 pm
They wont tell u but why u want to change?
On EUfam u can travel together without Visa in any eu country.
For stamp 4 they might ask u gnib card fee.
The OP is asking if he is on the right path without it affecting the citizenship of the spouse given himself being a dual national. This has nothing to do whether he suddenly wants to change Stamp because I don’t think that’s the case here.

Recent INIS guidance suggests that irrespective of a Deal or No-deal Brexit scenario the rights of family members of EU Citizens who hold EUFAM through a British Citizen will not be affected. Either way you’re covered so I wouldn’t think it is necessary to change your Stamp at present.

See link:
ireland/new-for-eufam-stamp-holders-of- ... 76947.html

Best Regards
If UK wont allow eu citizens then simply Ireland will refuse British national too, u think till now they have any solution for Brexit.
I’m afraid you are confusing the matter here. The link I included with my last reply explains it in black and white. Current applicants or up to the last second the UK is a still officially an EU member the rights of the family members of UK Citizens living in Ireland, exercising Freedom of Movement will not be affected.

Of course once the UK is officially out of the Union (let’s assume for the purpose of this discussion UK leaves in October 2019) any applications thereafter (November 2019 onwards) as a family member of UK Citizen will no longer be eligible to use the Freedom of Movement Rights since they [UK Citizen] will become Non-EU Members.

Best Regards

Finepaddy
Member
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:46 pm
Mood:
Norway

Re: Stamp change question.

Post by Finepaddy » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:06 pm

shpirtshqipe wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:52 pm
Finepaddy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:05 pm
shpirtshqipe wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:04 pm
Finepaddy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:31 pm
They wont tell u but why u want to change?
On EUfam u can travel together without Visa in any eu country.
For stamp 4 they might ask u gnib card fee.
The OP is asking if he is on the right path without it affecting the citizenship of the spouse given himself being a dual national. This has nothing to do whether he suddenly wants to change Stamp because I don’t think that’s the case here.

Recent INIS guidance suggests that irrespective of a Deal or No-deal Brexit scenario the rights of family members of EU Citizens who hold EUFAM through a British Citizen will not be affected. Either way you’re covered so I wouldn’t think it is necessary to change your Stamp at present.

See link:
ireland/new-for-eufam-stamp-holders-of- ... 76947.html

Best Regards
If UK wont allow eu citizens then simply Ireland will refuse British national too, u think till now they have any solution for Brexit.
I’m afraid you are confusing the matter here. The link I included with my last reply explains it in black and white. Current applicants or up to the last second the UK is a still officially an EU member the rights of the family members of UK Citizens living in Ireland, exercising Freedom of Movement will not be affected.

Of course once the UK is officially out of the Union (let’s assume for the purpose of this discussion UK leaves in October 2019) any applications thereafter (November 2019 onwards) as a family member of UK Citizen will no longer be eligible to use the Freedom of Movement Rights since they [UK Citizen] will become Non-EU Members.

Best Regards
Confuse how ? I m explaining situation after Brexit I didn't say anything about current applications.
Finepaddy becomes badpaddy :mrgreen:

shpirtshqipe
Member of Standing
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 10:33 am

Re: Stamp change question.

Post by shpirtshqipe » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:10 pm

Finepaddy wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:06 pm
shpirtshqipe wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:52 pm
Finepaddy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:05 pm
shpirtshqipe wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:04 pm


The OP is asking if he is on the right path without it affecting the citizenship of the spouse given himself being a dual national. This has nothing to do whether he suddenly wants to change Stamp because I don’t think that’s the case here.

Recent INIS guidance suggests that irrespective of a Deal or No-deal Brexit scenario the rights of family members of EU Citizens who hold EUFAM through a British Citizen will not be affected. Either way you’re covered so I wouldn’t think it is necessary to change your Stamp at present.

See link:
ireland/new-for-eufam-stamp-holders-of- ... 76947.html

Best Regards
If UK wont allow eu citizens then simply Ireland will refuse British national too, u think till now they have any solution for Brexit.
I’m afraid you are confusing the matter here. The link I included with my last reply explains it in black and white. Current applicants or up to the last second the UK is a still officially an EU member the rights of the family members of UK Citizens living in Ireland, exercising Freedom of Movement will not be affected.

Of course once the UK is officially out of the Union (let’s assume for the purpose of this discussion UK leaves in October 2019) any applications thereafter (November 2019 onwards) as a family member of UK Citizen will no longer be eligible to use the Freedom of Movement Rights since they [UK Citizen] will become Non-EU Members.

Best Regards
Confuse how ? I m explaining situation after Brexit I didn't say anything about current applications.
Very simple.

The person asking the question is what to do now since he has already a Stamp issued.

Very clearly the CURRENT legal stance (as suggested in the link) is that the person does not need to worry about changing Stamp as he will be covered regardless of Brexit with deal or no deal.

Therefore any future situation post Brexit is completely irrelevant in this case and frankly useless to the original question asked on this thread.

Best Regards

littlerr
Respected Guru
Posts: 2461
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:14 pm
China

Re: Stamp change question.

Post by littlerr » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:39 pm

Answering the original question that the OP asked, it is not immediately clear whether a spouse who is on 4EUFAM can apply for citizenship 3 years after he/she is married to an Irish resident with dual citizenship.

However, there is a legal case in the UK (McCarthy v Secretary of State, 2011) which may give the OP a few clarifications.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 2009CJ0434

To summarise, this case means that a person with dual citizenship (e.g. UK and Ireland) cannot exercise EU Treaty Rights for their spouse in their country of residence.

This is seldom enforced in Ireland (as it is just too much of hassle to check whether an EU person has another citizenship), so in this case the OP's spouse was able to get a Stamp 4EUFAM. There are quite a number of people who have done the same.

However, when this comes to naturalisation, it may get much complicated as they will check everything. How they will interpret that the OP has dual citizenship but the spouse is on 4EUFAM is going to be questionable. There is no legislation preventing a spouse who is on 4EUFAM to apply for naturalisation based on 3 years' reckonable residence, but the Minister will have the final say on this. Also the fact that OP obtained Irish citizenship through FBR is another complicating factor. I suggest that the OP seeks for legal advice from an immigration solicitor.

water_tank1
Junior Member
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:54 am
Ireland

Re: Stamp change question.

Post by water_tank1 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:00 pm

littlerr wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:39 pm
Answering the original question that the OP asked, it is not immediately clear whether a spouse who is on 4EUFAM can apply for citizenship 3 years after he/she is married to an Irish resident with dual citizenship.

However, there is a legal case in the UK (McCarthy v Secretary of State, 2011) which may give the OP a few clarifications.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 2009CJ0434

To summarise, this case means that a person with dual citizenship (e.g. UK and Ireland) cannot exercise EU Treaty Rights for their spouse in their country of residence.

This is seldom enforced in Ireland (as it is just too much of hassle to check whether an EU person has another citizenship), so in this case the OP's spouse was able to get a Stamp 4EUFAM. There are quite a number of people who have done the same.

However, when this comes to naturalisation, it may get much complicated as they will check everything. How they will interpret that the OP has dual citizenship but the spouse is on 4EUFAM is going to be questionable. There is no legislation preventing a spouse who is on 4EUFAM to apply for naturalisation based on 3 years' reckonable residence, but the Minister will have the final say on this. Also the fact that OP obtained Irish citizenship through FBR is another complicating factor. I suggest that the OP seeks for legal advice from an immigration solicitor.
Littler,

I put the very question to the citizenship department in simple terms about our situation regarding FBR and naturalisation and this was there response -




Dear Sir,

Thank you for your email. It is open to your wife to lodge an application
for citizenship through naturalisation if and when she is in a position to
meet the statutory requirements.
However, it is a requirement for naturalisation that she physically reside
here.

Please  find  below  some  information  in  relation  to applying for Irish
citizenship.

What is naturalisation and who can be naturalised?

Naturalisation is a process whereby a non - national can apply to become an
Irish  citizen.  Applications  are  decided by the Minister for Justice and
Equality,  who  has  absolute  discretion,  even  where the applicant meets
certain  conditions  set  out  in  the legislation, whether or not to grant
naturalisation.

Below are the criteria for an application based on marriage to an Irish
Citizen. Please note the criteria in bold.

Naturalisation of spouses of Irish citizens
If you are married or in a civil partnership to an Irish citizen and living
in   the   island   of   Ireland,  you  may  meet  special  conditions  for
naturalisation based on that marriage if:
·        You  are  of  full  age (i.e. eighteen years or older, or married if
younger than eighteen).
·       You are of good character.
·       You are married to your Irish citizen spouse for a period of not less
than 3 years.
·        Your  marriage  is  recognised  under  the  laws  of  the  State  as
subsisting.
·        You  and  your Irish citizen spouse are living together as spouse or
civil partner and your Irish spouse submits to the Minister an affidavit in
the prescribed form to that effect.
·        You have had immediately before the date of the application a period
of one year’s continuous residence in the island of Ireland, and
·       You have had, during the 4 years immediately preceding that period, a
total residence in the island of Ireland amounting to 2 years.
·        You  intend  in  good  faith  to continue to reside in the island of
Ireland after naturalisation and
·        You  make a declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the
State.

The  Minister  for  Justice  and Equality has power (in his or her absolute
discretion)  to  waive  one or more of the conditions outlined above in the
case  of  a  non  -  national  spouse  or civil partner of an Irish citizen
applying  for  naturalisation  if satisfied that the applicant would suffer
serious  consequences  in respect of his or her bodily integrity or liberty
if not granted Irish citizenship.

Detailed   information   on   Irish  citizenship  and  citizenship  through
naturalisation,  as well as the relevant application forms, is available on
the  website  of the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service (INIS) at
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Citizenship. The website also contains
guidance  on  the  completion  of  an application for naturalisation and an
online  naturalisation  residency  calculator which individuals may find of
assistance in establishing if the residency requirements are met.

Regards

Citizenship Helpdesk
Team 1

So they basically copied and pasted the requirements as seen on there website. This says to me regardless of when and how I became an Irish citizen the requirements are the same.

Would you agree?

littlerr
Respected Guru
Posts: 2461
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:14 pm
China

Re: Stamp change question.

Post by littlerr » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:32 pm

It’s their copy and paste but yes you can argue that you satisfy all of the said requirements, and they don’t have anything with regards to stamp numbers.

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