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Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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southcal
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by southcal » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:16 pm

I hate the fact that the judgment was handed down at this time, as both the courts and Oireachtas have just started summer break. So perhaps there will be no remedy until September at the very least... could impact whether there will be September ceremony at all

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by takeabow » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:33 pm

Obie wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:24 pm

In the UK, there is a 12 months continuous residence requirements, but the law makes clear that absence must not exceed 90 days. The Irish state ought to have done something similar with this 6 weeks.

Section 15(1)(c) really does not confer a discretion on the minister, and the judge is right on that. The 6 weeks cannot be given by the minister, if the statute does not afford it.
Not only that, but the UK lays out the circumstances under which discretion can be applied, up to 180 days in the last year providing certain other tests are met.

I get what the judge has done, but nothing will happen now until the autumn, given the summer break, and until then those who were about to apply are trapped. My wife cannot take her planned week to see her family in the USA, we will have to cancel our summer holiday, and she just has to wait in Ireland until the minister does something. And, to be honest, I don’t see what the incentive is for the minister to be quick

Chap1122
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Chap1122 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:38 pm

In summary,
LOL.It will Langer on things that were already decaying.
Unfortunate as alot's future was involving around passport.
I work in an organisation and my promotion was awaiting passport for last 3 years.
Now it will get delayed and my hairs will turn MORE grey (uk) gray (us)

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Obie » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:18 pm

We finally got a statement from the department of justice which is as follows:
We are studying the decision carefully and would take any necessary action in consultation with the Attorney General.
One can only imagine what that coded statement implies.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

takeabow
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by takeabow » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:34 pm

Obie wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:18 pm
We finally got a statement from the department of justice which is as follows:
We are studying the decision carefully and would take any necessary action in consultation with the Attorney General.
One can only imagine what that coded statement implies.
Clutching at straws, imaginary ones, but is there any mechanism here by which the minister can pass emergency and immediate legislation, perhaps pending a full debate after the summer break, in order to keep the wheels turning? Or does everything have to go through the full legislative process?

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Chap1122 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:09 pm

Whether all this may undo or not undo this decision
But something is very clear
More coffee breaks in INIS office !As work will stop momentarily.
Backlog and more delays!
Hairs may fall once grey for long time!
Passport=Youth+prime

southcal
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by southcal » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:47 pm

Seems virtually all lawyers so far do not agree with the ruling.

D. Kenny, TCD Law
As well as having serious policy implications, this is just bad statutory interpretation. The judge opts for a dictionary definition (🤦‍♀️) of “continuous” which makes no sense in the scheme of the Act and cannot have been the intention of the Oireachtas writing the law.
C. O'Mahony, UCC Law
Not to mention possible implications if same definition applied to other Acts - eg "continuous day to day care" for 12 months as a condition for guardianship or custody applications. Don't leave the kids with a childminder/relative if you want to apply ...

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Obie » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:59 pm

Well the interpretation of the court, even though I have issues with it, think it is too restrictive, I am unable to say it is perverse or one which no reasonable judge could have made.

To be fear, the Oireachtas could have define what continuous residence means in the act.
Wonder what they were thinking in 1956, but it clearly could not be this.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Finepaddy » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:05 am

U wonder what they was thinking in 1956 and I worried why they didn't think further or did any amendments in 60 plus years.

This explains alot about this country.
Finepaddy becomes badpaddy :mrgreen:

Bealtaine
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Bealtaine » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:54 am

Continuous reckonable residence.

Eg.
I reside in Ireland.
I could be away to Timbuktu for holiday/business but would not reside there.
Ireland is still my place of residence and is reckonable based on my stamps.

- Would previously naturalized citizens who did not meet that criteria have their citizenship revoked?
- Would those naturalized who didn’t meet that criteria and voted have their votes revoked?
- A minister’s wife recently got naturalized - would her citizenship be revoked?

Gift of legislature? Yes. But it’s semantics re continuous as a word alone. Continuous reckonable residence is the phrase and it remains unchanged with the clause of 6 weeks.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by atc » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:39 am

I'm sure this will be either overturned or new legislation will be brought in.

Unfortunately one thing for sure is all applications will be delayed until sorted.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Nre123 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:52 am

This will have far reaching impacts if taken seriously..will i have no tax obligations if i left country for a day as I am considered non-resident ? Hilarious

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Obie » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:17 am

atc wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:39 am
I'm sure this will be either overturned or new legislation will be brought in.

Unfortunately one thing for sure is all applications will be delayed until sorted.
Not all applicants make travel overseas in the 12 months leading to their application. Only those that did, will be affected by this decision. I guess it may be a very small amount.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by water_tank1 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:36 am

According to the current citizenship application form 8 and on closer inspection I see differences from Non-EU citizens based on 5 years residence and people applying on the basis of an Irish nation ....


" If you are a non‐EU citizen making a standard application based on having 5 years
residence:
 Evidence of your residency permissions that cover a CONTINUOUS PERIOD of 365/366
days in the year immediately prior to the date of application (date of Statutory Declaration)" - If applying this way it is asking for the "continuous residence" as per the new court ruling

According to the application form section based on married to an Irish national, it is not asking about the "continuous residence", only asking for residency permission for one year prior to application. So does this mean if applying based on married to an Irish nation is not affected?

Does the new ruling specify which basis the application is on or is it covering all applications?

Surely most if not all applicants who are applying for citizenship have been out of the country for at least one day in the 12 months before applying.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by dunks1887 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:14 am

water_tank1 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:36 am

Does the new ruling specify which basis the application is on or is it covering all applications?

It covers all applications made based on residency, whether that's via marriage or 5 years on a work permit, etc. I would say, as the ruling currently stands, 99% of applications for naturalisation based on residency are now eligible for refusal, except for the odd case of the person who hasn't stepped one foot out of Ireland in the past calendar year(e.g.- the extremely old and possibly those with very young children).

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Obie » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:20 am

No spouses of Irish citizen dont necessarily have to be in the state. It suffices that they were resident in the island of Ireland, so they can move between the state and Northern Ireland, without being affected.

I disagree that only 1% will succeed. It is not unusual for a person not to have travelled in a 12 months calender year.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by dunks1887 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:36 am

It can't be more than 10-15%. Thinking just from my own coworkers and family/friends the only person I know who hasn't traveled outside of Ireland, even to the UK, in the past 12 months is my husband's 95 year old granny. Most people who hold employment also have 20 or more days holidays a year. Most, if not all, take advantage of those days abroad, especially those that can afford the €175 application fee and the further ~€1000 needed to be naturalised.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by littlerr » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:45 am

I honestly don’t know a single person in my friends/colleagues/classmates list who hasn’t travelled abroad in the last 12 months.

We have 120+ staff in our Dublin branch and every single one of them has travelled abroad for holiday or business. I have access to our staff leave database which collects data on whether the staff requested for leave for a holiday abroad or domestic.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Nadzer » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:10 am

I managed to get though to the helpline this morning. The lady on the phone was super helpful and understanding.
They are just as shocked as we are. But the general mood is "don't worry, it will get sorted".
They also said they they might have to contact all applicants and advise on the situation but this hast been decided yet.
They are not stopping processing as of this morning.
I applied in October 2018 so was hoping to hear back soon.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by zepman » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:27 am

Obie wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:20 am

I disagree that only 1% will succeed. It is not unusual for a person not to have travelled in a 12 months calender year.
Agreed. When I applied for mine 3 years ago, I hadn't gone out of the country the year immediately prior to the application date. My wife applied for hers last year, and her application is still being processed. After I heard the news yesterday, I immediately checked her travel dates since she had visited family abroad in the previous calendar year. But turns out it was just before the 12 months leading up to her application date, so she is on the clear.

I remember that in the year leading up to my application, I was particular about not travelling abroad, just to be on the safer side. I had the same thinking for my wife's application as well, and that is probably why we did her application 12 months after her return from her family visit, even though she was eligible months earlier.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by nojoyfrominis » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:39 am

That is one way of clearing the backlog. Refuse 90% applications :D :D

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Obie » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:48 am

It will be hard for the minister to refuse applications in circumstances where people held legitimate expectations in light of the 6 weeks concession. They paid the naturalisation fees and legal fees on the understanding that the minister's concession will be applied to them. To refuse them without refunding their fees will be plainly wrong and could lead to legal challenges.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Spire01 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:02 am

According to this link, there are atleast 12000+ applications pending for decision with INIS:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/qu ... 04-25/112/

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Spire01 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:04 am

Apologies, wrong link.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Spire01 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:10 am


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