Naturalisation (Northern Ireland)

Hi all,

Apologies in advance for the long read ... But I would appreciate some advice.


I have been reading through the timeline threads from 2018 and 2019 and noticed that there is a wide range of differences between when people initially applied for Irish citizenship and had their application approved.

The alarming thing, with regards to my situation is that some people seem to be waiting well over a year before even receiving their 2nd letter.

The reason I ask is that I am an Irish citizen, born and living in Northern Ireland. My wife is a US citizen and arrived here in 2016 on an EU family permit. She received her UK residence card in January 2017 and it expires in January 2022.

With the unknown of what Brexit will bring - my goal had always been for her to apply for Naturalisation after 3 years. With her becoming an Irish citizen before her UK residence card expires. Effectively meaning that our dealings with the Home Office should be finished.

We have been here 3 years already, but have had to live with family (so lack of utility bills in our name) and she didn't work for over a year after arriving here. Our daughter was born a few months after she arrived here and was a stay at home mum for the first year.

Due to that, I am not entirely sure that I would currently have all the necessary evidence to satisfy the requirements for Naturalisation. We would have joint bank statements, doctor appointment letters, letter from GP, private medical insurance letters etc from when she arrived in 2016.

My plan is to apply mid/late 2020 which would really only give me a year / year and a half before her residence card runs out.

The citizenship website says that a straightforward application should take 6 months - but that doesn't seem to be the case ... And I also seen the recent judgement in relation to "continuous residence" which will hopefully be overturned.

I am just curious (if those with experience of the process) - have any recommendations about when I should apply for her to naturalise?

Thanks!

Hi I applied May 2018 from N.Ireland as the spouse of a citizen and seem to be getting closer to the end, one of the things I was told I could supply would be bank statements that show purchases in the town I reside in highlighted. I would apply now tbh, is there any particular reason why you want to delay? If it's financial you're looking at least at six months to gather up the 950 euros, and you only have to send off the application fee (175 euros). The sooner it's in, the sooner you can stop worrying about her visa status.

Hi !!!

Thanks for the reply!

The main reason for holding off is to ensure that my application is as bullet proof as possible !

My wife arrived in June 2016 and our daughter was born January 2017. My wife was a stay at home mum until summer 2018 - so I am afraid that I won't have enough paper evidence to satisfy the minister (for those first two years). To make it even more difficult - living with family has meant we don't have any utility bills in our name.

I know that we need 3 proofs for each year she will be claiming residence.

Off the top of my head (if we were to apply right now), I could produce the following:

June 2016 - June 2017: (1) Joint bank account statements (she doesn't have her own - everything is through a joint account) (2) private medical insurance policy (3) GP letter and hospital appointment letters for the duration of her pregnancy (4) our daughters birth certificate

June 2017 - June 2018: (1) same bank account statements (2) another year of private medical insurance (3) GP letters (4) at the end of 2018 she received her national insurance number and got a job - so we have her acceptance letter and pay slips

June 2018 - June 2019: (1) bank statements (2) pay slips (3) drivers license (4) car insurance (5) private medical insurance (6) GP letters

The reason I am thinking of waiting a while longer is that we are in the process of buying a house. Come the beginning of 2020 we should have several months of utility bills/mortgage contract in both our names etc to add to the list. And I think having those will make her application more likely to be accepted.

If that makes sense !

You only need 3 forms of ID per year (+ your marriage certificates/birth certificates etc). Form 8, part 4 http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/form-CTZ ... m-CTZ3.pdf shows what's required, if you've not given enough evidence they'll ask for more, *meerkat* simples

Sorry trying not to be pedantic but if you have the evidence they request now, you may as well apply now so the criteria doesn't change in the interim

Don't worry lol no offence taken at all !

That's just it though - is the evidence that I just listed not "poor" evidence. Which may cast some doubt over the application.

Surely household bills, pay slips etc for the entirety of the three years would be a much more concrete form of evidence ?

Also, doesn't the recent ruling (about not spending a single day outside of Ireland) - technically mean that I can't apply now (until that issue is resolved)??? Ironically that judgement got passed down when I was in Spain for the week

Cheers !

Apply anyway. Your evidence is fine, and the citizenship controversy will likely be resolved soon, one way or another. (My own hunch is that an emergency amendment will be made before the next ceremony). I’m unsure as how it can reasonably be practically applied to NI applicants in any case, as they are not required to complete the residency checklist, and travel within the U.K. is not passport controlled or logged (on ferries etc).

In any case, spousal applications from NI are taking between 18-24 months to complete, so the sooner you apply the better

Wow !!!! 18-24 months !!! That I didn't know! I thought 12 would be about average !!!! Is that 18-24 months for full completion of the process (ceremony as well) ?

I also agree about applying it to those in the North ... The article I read states that a single day outside of the state (so a hop over the border from the South to NI) would break the 1 year of continuous residence ... Technically in that case (for us in the North) we are breaking residence every single day.

I think I may have to start gathering everything together.

I was also thinking of going to my local MLA to see if they could give some assistance in completing the application (I know they help with Irish passport applications).

Also does anyone have any idea on the timeframe for getting a PSNI background check? I have read they are needed for applications from the North.

My wife applied after 3 years, on 31/10/17. Straightforward application, continuously employed, etc. Received approval end of March 19, and that was with MLA intervention to push things along.

PSNI checks are relatively quick (if you chase them) - my wife was asked for one.

Unfortunately, due to unavoidable circumstances she could not make the April ceremony, and instead will be rescheduled (hopefully for September, as we are in the same position as you re. The Home Office, as her current visa expires in November).

Unsure if the MLA will be much help in completing the application (they could sign as a witness, but a solicitor might be a better option). They are useful, however, when dealing with delays, especially if their party has a political presence in the ROI.

As for the citizenship law, NI applicants are required to reside continually on the island of Ireland in the 12 month period. However, the (already vague) legislation is even more so for NI applicants, as the context of the original law in effect did not recognise NI as part of the U.K. This rendered NI applicants as a special category, governed by a separate immigration system and unable to supply the same evidential proofs as ROI applicants - passport stamps etc.

So, while as you say NI applicants are de facto resident outside the state from the outset, even if you apply the “resident on the island” requirement, this has the effect of a) limiting the ability of an applicant to travel within their own country of residence (which is no doubt legally problematic and a double standard when compared to ROI applicants) and b) prejudicing ROI applicants, whose week’s holiday in London/Majorca/wherever, involving crossing a border, will be noted by ROI officials and invalidate their application, while an NI applicant can take the car to Scotland on the ferry for a week and INIS will be none the wiser. Another double standard, which could inevitably result in a raft of appeals.

Given the complexity of the issues involved, a legislative change to support ministerial discretion seems inevitable, followed by a comprehensive review of citizenship law, which would likely be required anyhow post BREXIT,

So, in short submit as soon as you can and keep pestering INIS. As a civil servant myself, I’m all to aware that those who make the most noise are often dealt with first, fairly or not.

Thank you so so so much! So if your wife had been able to make the April ceremony, that puts your application timeline at about 18 months. My wife's UK residence card expires on 6th January 2022.

As mentioned earlier, my biggest fear is that my wife didn't work for about 18 months after we arrived here in June 2016.

We were initially waiting on her EEA family permit getting upgraded to a UK residence card ... Then our daughter was born and she was a stay at home mum. She's only been in her job for a year.

So you feel that evidence such as joint bank account, GP appointment letters, pregnancy check up letters, private medical insurance policy etc ... Would class as sufficient? In order to account for her first 2 years here ?

Cheers!

I think you'll be fine with the evidence you have, I don't know that an MLA will make any difference with completing the application, you'll need a solicitor to verify your documents/witness but you may as well complete the application yourself as they're fairly straight forward as long as your read thru, if you have any queries you can always fire off an email to INIS.

As for timeline I'm coming up on 15 months and only just moved to 2nd stage, even if I get Sept ceremony (probably won't, but you never know)that would be 17 months, December 20 months from I submitted application. The PSNI check I had thru within 2 weeks, was really quick.

sp84 wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:23 am

That's just it though - is the evidence that I just listed not "poor" evidence. Which may cast some doubt over the application.

One other thing that you're forgetting which shows the legitimacy of your marriage is your daughter.

Carensza wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:39 pm

sp84 wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:23 am

That's just it though - is the evidence that I just listed not "poor" evidence. Which may cast some doubt over the application.

One other thing that you're forgetting which shows the legitimacy of your marriage is your daughter.

That's true ! I was also thinking of writing a letter along with it. Explaining "our story" and helping to lay out the timelines. Especially around the birth of our daughter in 2017 - I'm assuming I could also send her birth certificate (as it has my wife and I's names on it) as proof of that.

I have also heard of people sending in photographs with their application.

It's more her "proof of residence" though that I'm worried about - rather than proving our marriage if that makes sense.

You're overthinking it, they give you a list of what's acceptable with the application form and it looks like you have enough, if you don't they'll ask for more.

Carensza wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:18 pm

You're overthinking it, they give you a list of what's acceptable with the application form and it looks like you have enough, if you don't they'll ask for more.

Perfect thank you!!! I'll start gathering it all and apply much earlier than I thought then!

One last question - how many ceremonies do they have per year ? I assume that it's 2 (April and September) ?

Usually 3 large and maybe 1 or 2 smaller "filler" ceremonies, the info page originally had 2 more cermonies for this year (in Sept and December) but I can't see the dates anymore according.

Carensza wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:10 pm

Usually 3 large and maybe 1 or 2 smaller "filler" ceremonies, the info page originally had 2 more cermonies for this year (in Sept and December) but I can't see the dates anymore according.

Brilliant thank you. Also see pasted below and email that I received from the citizenship information helpline regarding naturalisation as a spouse. It may come in helpful for others ...

You must submit three different proofs of
residence for each year of residence claimed with your application. The
proofs of residence to be submitted must show your name and address.
Documents you can use as proof of residence are as follows:

You can use household bills for:
· Electricity
· Gas
· Water
· Fixed line telephone
· Fixed line internet
· Fixed line TV

Utility bills are classed as one proof of residence and you must three different Utility Bills covering the first or last six months of each year.

You may also use:
· Documents from the Revenue Commissioners (tax authorities), eg P60,
P21
· Six months bank statements showing day-to-day living transactions, eg
debit-card transactions in a supermarket
· A letter from the Department of Social Protection stating the dates
and types of benefits claimed
· Employment letters and payslips
· Mortgage agreement
· Tenancy/rental agreement
· Letter from the Private Residential Tenancies Board
· Doctor/Dentist/Hospital Letter showing dates first registered with the practice and periods of attendance for each year.
- A letter from the Department of Social Protection stating the dates and types of benefits claimed for each year.
- House/Medical/Car Insurance Letters showing the date the policy commenced/ceased and the duration of the policy for each year.
- School/College Letters showing dates of enrolment, periods of attendance and the date you ceased your education at each school/college. School/College Letters can only be submitted if you are currently in full-time education.

The onus is on the applicant to submit sufficient proof of residence with
your application.


Please be advised that a determination on whether an applicant satisfies
the statutory criteria attendant to naturalisation can only be made after an application is received.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/citi ... -1.3968576

https://www.thejournal.ie/court-of-appe ... 0-Jul2019/

Appeal date set for October ! But the author states it could be put off until 2021!!! Surely not!

It is possible (likely?) that emergency legislation could be passed in the Dail on its return from summer recess in September.

This seems likely if, as INIS currently state, they are planning to hold September’s ceremony, which otherwise would be very sparsely attended.

American-Northern Irish marriage applicant here. IMO, having a straightforward application is meaningless. We diligently planned our application for six years to make sure we had ample documentation. The application is colour coded and sectioned in chronological order. And there it sits month after month untouched and unseen.

We have gotten TDs and even Varadkar's offer to send Oireachtas inquiries and INIS just says they don't know where our application is. We do know it's in the office though. It was tracked and, after a few months, they did open it and send the currently valid passport back. But there is no application number and they haven't entered any info into the system so, I assume, it hasn't been looked at.

I think it's just luck of the draw. I obsess over the timelines on this forum and just can't find any trends that create "straightforward applications". I would have thought ours could be. All the original documents are in English. We've carefully curated a selection of documents to show we've always lived in the same place. We put family members as referees. But it doesn't matter. There are 15,000 applications so it's like waiting for a lottery number.

I know UK immigration is a hassle you're better off doubling down on immigration cards than taking any risks. One day of illegal residency can ruin your life.

niccim wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:41 am

Code: Select all

American-Northern Irish marriage applicant here. IMO, having a straightforward application is meaningless. We diligently planned our application for six years to make sure we had ample documentation. The application is colour coded and sectioned in chronological order. And there it sits month after month untouched and unseen.

We have gotten TDs and even Varadkar's offer to send Oireachtas inquiries and INIS just says they don't know where our application is. We do know it's in the office though. It was tracked and, after a few months, they did open it and send the currently valid passport back. But there is no application number and they haven't entered any info into the system so, I assume, it hasn't been looked at.

I think it's just luck of the draw. I obsess over the timelines on this forum and just can't find any trends that create "straightforward applications". I would have thought ours could be. All the original documents are in English. We've carefully curated a selection of documents to show we've always lived in the same place. We put family members as referees. But it doesn't matter. There are 15,000 applications so it's like waiting for a lottery number.

I know UK immigration is a hassle you're better off doubling down on immigration cards than taking any risks. One day of illegal residency can ruin your life.

Wow that's crazy!!!! I assume you mean that you applied 6 months ago? And are still waiting on an application number !!!

On their website or says 6 months for an application - I think that needs updating if the backlog is that big!

Are you applying from NI ?

sp84 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:41 pm

niccim wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:41 am

Code: Select all

American-Northern Irish marriage applicant here. IMO, having a straightforward application is meaningless. We diligently planned our application for six years to make sure we had ample documentation. The application is colour coded and sectioned in chronological order. And there it sits month after month untouched and unseen.

We have gotten TDs and even Varadkar's offer to send Oireachtas inquiries and INIS just says they don't know where our application is. We do know it's in the office though. It was tracked and, after a few months, they did open it and send the currently valid passport back. But there is no application number and they haven't entered any info into the system so, I assume, it hasn't been looked at.

I think it's just luck of the draw. I obsess over the timelines on this forum and just can't find any trends that create "straightforward applications". I would have thought ours could be. All the original documents are in English. We've carefully curated a selection of documents to show we've always lived in the same place. We put family members as referees. But it doesn't matter. There are 15,000 applications so it's like waiting for a lottery number.

I know UK immigration is a hassle you're better off doubling down on immigration cards than taking any risks. One day of illegal residency can ruin your life.

Wow that's crazy!!!! I assume you mean that you applied 6 months ago? And are still waiting on an application number !!!

On their website or says 6 months for an application - I think that needs updating if the backlog is that big!

Are you applying from NI ?

I am applying from Dublin. I doubt the website will be updated. Updating to the truth of "applications will be processed within five months to five years" doesn't have the same ring to it.

They return currently valid passports to prevent the legal issues that come with holding onto them. It's easy to fall through the cracks, especially when you have no way to contact them. Now seeing that they can change the requirements overnight, the process is more hopeless than ever.

At this point, I would actively advise anyone against coming to or staying in Ireland, say nothing of holding out hope for any help or response from the gov't.

Sorry for the dark cloud! But after seeing people waiting for years or getting their passports revoked afterward, I have no confidence in any of this.