Daughters immigration/citizenship status

Any advice on this topic is appreciated.
I was born abroad to a UK born father and successfully claimed citizenship by descent and moved to the UK. My children and husband were granted ILR and after having met the residency and other requirements, my husband successfully applied for and was naturalised (6.2). At the same time he registered my daughter and she was granted a 3.1. There was no accompanying letter to state if the 3.1 status was by descent or otherwise by descent.

I assume it is otherwise by descent as
1. I was not a BR Citizen at the time of birth
2. Citizenship by descent can only be passed down one generation (my father to me) and not two generations
3. Her application was in her own right having met the residency and other criteria although it was submitted at the same time as my husband applied for naturalisation.
I am asking this question about 3.1 because it will impact on the eligibility of my granddaughter who was also born abroad.
Is my assumption of my daughter’s 3.1 status correct?

Section 3.1 registration is British otherwise than by Descent usually.

Clarity wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:48 pm

I was born abroad to a UK born father

Was your UK-born father married to your mother at the time of your birth?

Yes my parents were married at the time of my birth.

Clarity wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:15 pm

Yes my parents were married at the time of my birth.

In that case, you have been a British citizen by descent since your birth (even if you did not have a British passport till recently) and therefore your child, being registered as a British citizen under Section 3(1), is also a British citizen by descent.

Section 14(1)(c) of the British Nationality Act 1981 wrote:(1)For the purposes of this Act a British citizen is a British citizen “by descent” if and only if—
...
(c)he is a British citizen by virtue of registration under section 3(1) and either—
(i)his father or mother was a British citizen at the time of the birth; or

Another thought. Are you certain that the child was registered under Section 3(1) and not section 3(5)?

If the child had resided in the UK for three continuous years with you and the other parent before the application, s/he would have been entitled to registration under Section 3(5), which would have made the child a British citizen otherwise than by descent.

To secret Simon
I was told that citizenship by descent can only be passed down one generation ie from my father to me and no further. I was a Singapore Citizen from time of birth until I applied for my citizenship entitlement in 1984 which was two years after my daughter was born also in Singapore. Singapore does not recognise dual citizenship hence I had to renounce my Singapore Citizenship to gain my British citizenship.

When we (family) moved to the UK in 1984 my husband and daughter had ILR and we were told that my family had to wait 6 years to apply for naturalisation/ registration respectively. Please don’t get me wrong and I really appreciate your input but if as you advise that my daughter is also by descent, then doesn’t it mean that this claim is for two generations? She met the residency requirements in her own right.

Under the guidance notes of the BNA it states that 3.1 by descent is if the parent was British at the time of my daughter’s birth, which I was not. It states that all other cases is otherwise by descent.

Am I misunderstanding the guidance notes?

Clarity wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:51 pm

Singapore does not recognise dual citizenship hence I had to renounce my Singapore Citizenship to gain my British citizenship.

Singapore may not recognise dual citizenship, but, based on your father's British citizenship by birth in the UK and his marriage to your mother, you were automatically a British citizen by descent at birth under UK law, even if that citizenship was not exercised by you (by having a British passport) or recognised by Singapore.

Clarity wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:51 pm

doesn’t it mean that this claim is for two generations?

British citizenship can only be passed on automatically by descent one generation outside the UK. Your child is a British citizen by descent through registration, not automatically. That is possible and provided in legislation.

Clarity wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:51 pm

She met the residency requirements in her own right.

While the registration requirements were met by her, the law also defines the circumstances in which the citizenship is acquired "by descent" and your child does meet those definitions. Therefore she is a British citizen by descent.

How old is your grandchild? if your granddaughter is under the age of 15, your child, their spouse and your grandchild should move to the UK and your grandchild can register as a British citizen under section 3(5) after three continuous years of residence in the UK with both parents, which will make her a British citizen otherwise than by descent in her own right.

Thank you for shedding light on the situation but you did raise an interesting thought about 3.5. If what you say about automatic and registration rights is true which I have no reason to doubt you then shouldn’t my daughter be registered as 3.5 as
1. According to what you have said, I was automatically a citizen by descent
2. My family were in the UK for 3 continuous years ending the date of application.

So was my daughter’s registration category incorrect?
How do I rectify this?
I read that a child cannot change from by descent to otherwise by descent. If this is true then are we stuck with this error?

Clarity wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:04 am

So was my daughter’s registration category incorrect?
How do I rectify this?

Your daughter's categorisation may have been incorrect, but that would likely have depended on what information you provided in the registration form. The registration form is the same for most categories of registering children.

Also, Section 3(5) is only applicable to children of British citizens by descent. Until this thread, you were under the mistaken belief that you were a British citizen otherwise than by descent. If you filled in that incorrect information on the registration form, then the caseworker would have correctly, based on the information given by you, not even considered Section 3(5) and would have correctly registered the child under the only Section available to such a child (Section 3(1)).

You can't change the Section that you are registered under, once the registration has been granted and you (in this case, the child) have become a British citizen.

Clarity wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:04 am

I read that a child cannot change from by descent to otherwise by descent. If this is true then are we stuck with this error?

Yes. Essentially this categorisation (by descent/otherwise...) gets set at the time of acquisition of British citizenship and lasts while you remain a British citizen.

Even a renunciation and resumption of British citizenship won't help, as Section 14(1)(g) of the British Nationality Act 1981 states that a person who resumes British citizenship after renunciation (registration under Section 13) "who, immediately before he ceased to be a British citizen as a result of a declaration of renunciation, was such a citizen by descent;" remains as a British citizen by descent after resumption.

Thank you once again for your input.
To be honest, I only knew that I was automatically a citizen by descent and the problem was highlighted this year when my daughter was refused a passport. My references relating to otherwise by descent is what I have read online.
I did contact the Home Office helpline in April this year and the advisor implied that a mistake could have been. I emailed the Home Office but I did not get a response.
I am now writing to the Home Office for a review and advice. Will it help if I get my MP involved?
Also if indeed an administrative error was made through no fault of mine, can the Home Office make a correction and for me to fill the RR form?

To secret Simon

Should I advise my daughter to register my granddaughter for a consular registration of birth anyway. I am aware that a consular registration does not confer nationality or citizenship but is it beneficial anyway. My granddaughter is 5 months old and has a local Singapore birth certificate. I understand that a consular registration of birth needs to take place before sh3 is a year old. Are there benefits to this route....just in case the family want to return to the UK in the future, meet the 3 year UK residency rules and apply for formal registration as a minor?

How old is your daughter? When was she registered as a British citizen?

Clarity wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:55 pm

Will it help if I get my MP involved?

I don't see how your MP can help in this mater. There is simply no provision in the law to reissue a registration certificate on a different basis.

Clarity wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:55 pm

Also if indeed an administrative error was made through no fault of mine, can the Home Office make a correction and for me to fill the RR form?

The RR Form allows you to have a detail on the registration form corrected, such as the misspelling of a name, etc, not revise the basis of the registration itself.

Clarity wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:55 pm

I did contact the Home Office helpline in April this year

The Home Office helpline is handled by a thirdparty agency, not by Home Office staff and in any case, your particular issue is quite niche.

I would not be surprised if even most lawyers would be aware of circumstance as specific as yours. You would need the advice of a lawyer who is knowledgable in a very spcific aspect of nationality law, not just any lawyer either.

Whether you want to take this matter forward with a lawyer or with your MP or with some other advisor, I suggest that you show them this thread for them to understand the issue (and my interpretation) in the round. If it makes you feel any better, I am not a lawyer, not even studied it. I've read on the history behind how the nationality laws were formed and why they were so written, but not a lawyer myself, and it is possible that a lawyer more learned in the law would come to a diffferent conclusion. But it is a very niche area of the law and you will need expert advice, not a run-of-the-mill lawyer.

Clarity wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:59 pm

Should I advise my daughter to register my granddaughter for a consular registration of birth anyway. I am aware that a consular registration does not confer nationality or citizenship but is it beneficial anyway.

While I can't think of any benefits, it can't do any harm either. What it does is that inscribes the details of a foreign birth into the UK's birth, marriages and death registers, so that in future, if anybody is doing family research, it is easier to find. And as it will already have been verified and added to the UK's records, that consular birth certificate may be easier to use for any future UK based paperwork.

Thank you very much.

Hi Simon,
Well the passport office has responded to my complaint and you were right....I was a Br Citizen according to BR law but not Singapore law, without knowing it.
Which leads me to ask another question.
I have read the criteria for 3.5 and my daughters both meet the criteria listed so I don’t know why discretion was used to register them under 3.1.
I am thinking of asking the asking the Home Office to review this classification. What are the chances that staff will be sympathetic? My daughters are now in their 30’s and their registration took place in 1990.
Can I ask the HO to use discretion for my granddaughter? She was only born abroad because the Passport office gave assurances that it was ok for my daughter (eldest) to proceed with the pregnancy. The Complaints Resolution Team have advised their telephonic staff not to offer such advice in future which is fine for others but not my granddaughter who is the real victim. I can raise the complaint to level 2 but will I have better luck with the HO than the PO? Would love to hear your views on this. Thanks

Clarity wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:23 pm

I have read the criteria for 3.5 and my daughters both meet the criteria listed so I don’t know why discretion was used to register them under 3.1.

They would have based their decision on the information you provided to them in the application form. If you indicated that you were not a British citizen by descent at the time of your children's birth, they would have considered the application under Section 3.1, rather than Section 3.5.

Clarity wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:23 pm

I am thinking of asking the asking the Home Office to review this classification. What are the chances that staff will be sympathetic? My daughters are now in their 30’s and their registration took place in 1990.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don't think that the categorisation can be changed once British citizenship has been acquired.

Clarity wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:23 pm

Can I ask the HO to use discretion for my granddaughter?

It can go either way and registration as a British citizen is not cheap (about £1000).

Your family was misled by information given by the telephonic staff (which by the way are not Home Office staff; the telephonc support is outsourced to a third party contractor and we on these forums advise against following their advice unless independently verified) and you can make a case that discretion should be exercised to redeem that failure. Be aware that the Home office may not see it this way and does not take responsibility for incorrect advice, either over the phone or even in writing/email.

On the other hand, when exercising discretion under Section 3(1), Home Office staff will look at how closely related the child is to the UK and whether their future clearly lies in the UK. Given the number of generations of your family which have been born and raised abroad and who have not resided in the UK for any significant part of their lives, the Home Office may take the view that the future of the child does not lie clearly in the UK.

See from Pages 27 to 31 of the Registration as a British citizen-children guidance.

Hi Simon,
Firstly, you are knowledgeable in this case and I respect your advice.

The PO have responded and confirm that I had an automatic claim to citizenship from birth in Singapore even though I only made a claim two years after my daughter’s birth.

Quote....Registration as a British Citizen under section 3(1) reads “if either of the applicants parents was a British Citizen at time of birth; then the applicant will be by decent”
Although you were a citizen of Singapore at the time of your daughter Cheryl’s birth, you still had an automatic claim to British Citizenship through your Father. Despite Singapore not recognizing dual citizenship, Britain does. Therefore, at the time of Cheryl’s birth you were still considered to have a claim to British citizenship. This means when Cheryl registered as 3(1) it was 3(1) by decent.

Please help me understand the following:
My claim from my father though automatic is. deemed by descent. Under the BNA, I cannot therefore pass this on to my daughter who like me was also born abroad ie it can be passed down only once and not twice. Therefore, when her application was made shouldn’t the Home Office have considered her application as “otherwise by descent” instead of “by descent”. She met all the criteria under 3.5 in her own right. My daughter was educated and worked in the UK for 30 years and while she is currently working abroad on secondment she does intend to return to the UK soon.

I think this issue about citizenship by descent was decided by the HO because while I was a. citizen at the time my daughter made her application no one considered HOW I acquired my citizenship or does this not matter. Please enlighten me because I am trying to get the HO to look into this matter. They do not keep records before 2001 apparently.

Hi
Can anyone clarify this matter for me.
I was born abroad to a UK born father(married to my mother). According to the HO, I had an automatic claim to citizenship . I have my certificate of Entitlement. The fact that I was born abroad means that it is by descent. I also understand that if it is classified as by descent then I cannot pass this on to my children born abroad.

Next question.....if my daughter applied for registration as a minor (also born abroad but has ILR and is eligible due to residency, UK education etc will she be classed as “otherwise by descent” or “by descent”?

I feel it should be otherwise by descent but the passport office state it is by descent. They state that as my citizenship was automatic then my daughter is classed as by descent.
Shouldn’t the fact that I myself am classed as by descent void their argument as this will mean the by descent can be passed down two generations instead of one as stated in the BNA?

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Hi,
Can anyone clarify the following for me?
I was born abroad to a UK born father. I claimed my automatic Certificate of Entitlement successfully.
I am aware that I cannot pass citizenship to my children born abroad as the “citizenship by descent” can only be passed down one generation. Does “one generation” mean from my father to me or does it mean from me to my children. I enquired about this at the Passport Office and they stated that the one generation rule means from me to my children which is different to what the Home Office states on their website.
Which agency is correct?

Clarity wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:52 pm

Hi,
Can anyone clarify the following for me?
I was born abroad to a UK born father. I claimed my automatic Certificate of Entitlement successfully.
I am aware that I cannot pass citizenship to my children born abroad as the “citizenship by descent” can only be passed down one generation. Does “one generation” mean from my father to me or does it mean from me to my children. I enquired about this at the Passport Office and they stated that the one generation rule means from me to my children which is different to what the Home Office states on their website.
Which agency is correct?

It means from your father to you, i.e. one generation and it stops with you in terms of automatically British by descent. Your father to your children is two generations.

Thank you and it was as I thought. When I registered my daughter (successfully )in 1990,it was in her own right, having met the residency criteria etc. The issue only arose recently, when my daughter applied for a passport for her own daughter (my granddaughter) and the Passport Office refused claiming that as I had automatic citizenship, my daughter received citizenship by descent from me and therefore she could not pass it on to her daughter who was also born overseas.
I argued that what was said was wrong and not in accordance with the BNA as I could not have passed my citizenship by descent to her in the first place and that any citizenship she held was in her own right via registration as a child.
My daughter only decided to give birth overseas( job secondment) because of assurances given by the Passport Office ie as she was a citizen there would not be any problems for her then unborn daughter. These. Reassurances of course were false and the PO has stated that this has only flagged up a training issue with their staff. My daughter had the option to return to the UK mid point her pregnancy.
So I am confused. Can anyone shed light on this matter?

I think that most of your questions have already been answered in my previous post in this thread.

Clarity wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:29 pm

My daughter only decided to give birth overseas( job secondment) because of assurances given by the Passport Office ie as she was a citizen there would not be any problems for her then unborn daughter. These. Reassurances of course were false and the PO has stated that this has only flagged up a training issue with their staff. My daughter had the option to return to the UK mid point her pregnancy.

Firstly, those reassurances given by the Passport Office may have been based on incomplete information given by her to them. As CR001 had mentioned in an earlier post, most Section 3(1) registrations lead to British citizenship otherwise than by descent and they can pass their citizenship to children born abroad.

However, the law provides that such is not the case if one of the parents of the person registered is a British citizen at the time of the birth of the child.

If she did not mention this vital fact (one that you only became aware of during this thread), then their advice was correct.

However, incorrect advice by even Home office staff (and the contact centre are not Home Office staff) does not alter the law. The law is quite clear that you (automatically) and your daughter (after registration) are both British citizens by descent.

You can apply to register your granddaughter as a British citizen by descent, again under Section 3(1), essentially requesting the Home Office to exercise their discretion to resolve this issue, due to an error caused by incomplete/incorrect information.

However, keep in mind that the Home Office staff would look at the totality of the information in front of them. While keeping in mind the incorrect advice, they can also note that the grand-daughter is the third generation born outside the UK and that the mother (your daughter) does still have the option to move to the UK and reside with the child (and other parent) for at least three years and then register your granddaughter under Section 3(5). For those reasons above, they can refuse to exercise their discretion. Disputing that can lead to a long and costly legal battle.

And even if you succeed in that legal battle, your granddaughter, if registered with discretion under Section 3(1), will also be a British citizen by descent, as her mother was a British citizen at the time of her birth.

However, if her mother moved to the UK, with the child and the other parent and resided here for at least three continuous years, your granddaughter can be registered under Section 3(5), which will make her a British citizen otherwise than by descent.

I suggest that your daughter look at that option, which would be easier, less costly and be of more benefit to your granddaughter.

Thank you

Hi everyone,
Where can I write to to get a cover letter confirming my and my daughter’s current citizenship? I will need to forward my supporting documents but don’t know whether it is to the Immigration department or another.
My issue:
I received my citizenship by descent via my UK born father as I was born abroad.
My daughter (born overseas) is registered as a citizen under 3.1 which according to the BNA Is “otherwise by descent” which means that she can lawfully pass her citizenship down one generation to her daughter who is also born overseas.

The passport office has however, refused my granddaughter a passport stating that even though my citizenship is by descent, my daughter is also by descent and therefore cannot pass on her citizenship to her daughter. Their interpretation of the BNA is incorrect as it implies that citizenship by descent can be passed down two generations when the BNA clearly states that it is one generation only. I have challenged them via their complaints procedure but have said that they have no discretion in this matter and recommend a letter from the Immigration and Visa dept but which they have not indicated which precise department.

The online forms like the NS are not appropriate for this matter.

Whom can I write to for a formal verification of our citizenship status?

Thanks. Any feedback is appreciated.