ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

Irish Visa Application Rejected

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, Administrator

Locked
Jackson2004
Newly Registered
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:51 pm

EEA application to excerse treaty rights rejected

Post by Jackson2004 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:51 am

My wife is from Cambodia and I started speaking to her on a dating app a year ago. She is well educated and has a good job in Cambodia, and I have am a Senior Software Engineer from the UK. I’m 30 and she is 32.

We maintained regular contact over a three months then I decided to visit in January. During this time we spent a few weeks traveling and I went to visit her family. I fell in love with her in so many ways so when I visited again in March I proposed and by late April we married in Hong Kong and were spending our honeymoon in the Philippines.

During this time we have been in constant daily contact. We got married in a Hong Kong registry office due to the complications in a foreigner marrying in Cambodia. Her brother, parents, aunts and a few cousins joined us.

We have both shared expenses of the wedding, brought regular gifts for one another, have photos of the few months this year we have spent together. We have been supported of one an others ambitions and I feel for her in a way I havnt felt for anyone.

In July I was let go from my job at the end of probationary period. It was the first time I had lead responsibilities and I don’t think I was quite ready for it. At this point my wife had just finished doing her IELTS English language test so we were making progress towards a UK visa.

I applied many job opportunities in London, Manchester, Dublin, and Belfast as those where the primary spots for software development job opportunities. Ireland made sense because I wanted to become a contractor which I wouldn’t have been able to do if I wanted to meet financial evidence requirements for a UK visa application but my main concern was just finding a job at that time.

I failed a job interview in London, and a telephone interview in Manchester and Belfast before accepting the first job offer in Dublin that was extended to me. Which was a well paid contract position.

Before starting my contract I spent another month at my wife’s house during this time we prepared an application for excersising our EU treaty rights. Which included a cover note from each of us, employmer information, marriage certificate, and a passport. We did not include photos or evidence of durability because we did not believe these where things that needed to be established when excoriating treaty rights when married.

I started work and 6 weeks later we had a visa rejection letter on the following groun’s that the decision maker had sernious concerns that we are a abusing our EU treaty rights. The following points where noted

- The original marriage certificate is not proof of marriage in itself but has to be certified by the Cambodian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I believe they have made a mistake on this. Why would a Hong Kong marriage certificate need the be verified by a Cambodian government department. And I was under the impression that as the marriage certificate was issued by a former uk colonie signed up to The Hague convention and that the certificate was issued in a government registry office that was proof of marriage on its own for visa purposes to internationally accepted standards

- That we havnt provided evidence of durability. This is extremely concerning as we were under the impression that the durability test was only applied in the case of Eu treaty rights if we were not married. Even though we have been in constant contact, are married, visit as often as we can and have developed a loving relationship the test usually involves having lived together for two years.

- That we have provided no evidence of me having stated work on the date specified in the application. The start date was actually pushed back a week which I didn’t notify them off but provided as much information as necessity for them to contact the employer, agency etc. I was told that they had been in contact with my employer and confirmed that I was indeed working.

-That I have provided no evidence of having searched for perminent accommodation. When I got to Dublin I had no idea just how difficult it was to find somewhere. I have been looking for somewhere left right and centre as I will obviously need to find somewhere before my wife puts in her notice but it is proving difficult when 1 property gets 100 applicants and I’m working 9-6. I didn’t know that this evidence was nessesery.

Furthermore at no point was any extra evidence ever requested.

I am really sure what I do / need to provide to mitigate there concerns. I’m beginning to believe that it will be difficult to establish durability which really puts us in a difficult situation because I love my new job and want to settle in Ireland but will do anything to be back with my wife and I don’t believe the same two year living test is applied in the UK to establish a genuine and subsisting relationship where the couple is married.

I will be seeking legal help but any preliminary advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

worrieduk
Newbie
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:35 pm

Re: EEA application to excerse treaty rights rejected

Post by worrieduk » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:40 pm

Are you applying for the EEA family permit under Surinder Singh route?

You have to be living together with your wife for this to work.

secret.simon
Moderator
Posts: 10975
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: EEA application to excerse treaty rights rejected

Post by secret.simon » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:50 pm

Are you a British citizen, an Irish citizen or a non-British EEA citizen?

How long have you resided in Dublin/Republic of Ireland?

Did you wife reside with you in the RoI while you were exercising treaty rights?

Did you make the application in Ireland or in the UK?
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

User avatar
ALKB
Respected Guru
Posts: 871
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:32 am
Location: Berlin
Germany

Re: EEA application to excerse treaty rights rejected

Post by ALKB » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:53 am

secret.simon wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:50 pm
Are you a British citizen, an Irish citizen or a non-British EEA citizen?

How long have you resided in Dublin/Republic of Ireland?

Did you wife reside with you in the RoI while you were exercising treaty rights?

Did you make the application in Ireland or in the UK?
As far as I can tell, OP and his wife have never lived together as such, so far.

She is still in Cambodia and he recently moved to ROI for a job.
I am not a regulated immigration advisor. I am offering an opinion and not advice.

Jackson2004
Newly Registered
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:51 pm

Irish Visa Application Rejected

Post by Jackson2004 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:02 pm

I am a UK citizen who is fell in love with a Cambodian national. We started speaking mid last year online and met in January, on my next trip in Arpil I proposed, my next trip in mid May we got married in Hong Kong registry office. Not long after I lost my job as a Senior Software Developer. I was coming to the end of probation and they decided I wasn't right for a team lead position there.

I applied for other jobs, and accepted the first job that was offered to me. A senior developer contract position in Dublin Ireland. My partner subseqently applied for a VISA to join me in excersising our EU treaty rights. I didn't include evidence of durability. Just included an explanation of events and supportiing documents to prove that we were married and that I had employment in ireland.

The visa was rejected as the decision maker had secious concerns that I was abusing my treaty rights and not excersing them in a genuine capacity. They cited the following points

- The origional marriage certificate is not recognisted without it being certified by the Cambodian Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

The marriage certificate was Hong Kong. The Cambodian Ministry of Foreign Affairs will not ceritfy a foreign document. I was also under the impression that as Hong Kong is signed up to the Hague Convention the document on its own was sufficient to verify that we are lawfully married)

- That we havn't provided any evidence of durability

The Irish duribility test sets the bar at 2 years of co-habitation. It is unclear if the durability test applies if we provide sufficient proof of marriage.

- That I provided no evidence of having started on my contract start date

The contract start date was pushed back a week at the clients request. They did contract my employer and confirm I was working so I can't see how this is at all relivent.

- That I have provided no evidence of perminent accomodation

I didn't know this was a requirement. At no point where we asked for additional information before our application was rejected. I had just moved to Dublin so have been finding it difficult to secure accomodation. I have secured temporary accomodation renting with a friend from work but it isn't suitable for a couple.

I think the best course of action now is to speak to a solicitor but i'm worried this is going to end up costing far more than i am able to afford. Nothing comes cheap in Dublin. Any initial advise would be greatly appreciated.

littlerr
Respected Guru
Posts: 2461
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:14 pm
China

Re: Irish Visa Application Rejected

Post by littlerr » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:17 am

You had a lot of common visa rejection reasons for a person from developed country.

First of all, as any country's visa policy will tell you, the official list of documents to be submitted is just a guidance. The onus is on the applicant to convince the visa officer. You cannot say "oh they didn't ask me for this document." They mightn't but it would have asked you to provide sufficient evidence to prove what you stated.

- Marriage cert: Your marriage cert is recognised in HK and in IE, but not in Cambodia. This means, it is possible for a person to get a marriage cert in Cambodia and get another one to a different person in HK or IE. Therefore, you will need it certified by the Cambodian officials.

- Evidence of durability: 2 year co-habitation is not a hard requirement for married couples, but again the onus is on you to provide sufficient evidence that your relationship is not a "marriage of convenience". Most sham marriages are in the form of two person never living together and getting a marriage cert in a third country, which matches what you have done here. So you need to give alternative evidence to disprove it. For example, photos of travelling together, chat scripts, financial interdependencies, Facebook photos etc.

- Contract start date: A change of employment circumstance immediately raises a red flag, as this is normally the only phone call the visa officer will make. Any slight discrepancies between what was stated in your visa application and what your employer said will likely result in a rejection.

- Accommodation: Likewise, in order to exercise your EU Treaty Rights, you need to be able to prove that your wife will have a place to live with you and will not become a burden of the state. I know 3 people in our company who got their visa without providing evidence of accommodation. 2 of them showed a large sum of money on their bank account, and had a cover letter explaining what their plan is with regards to finding accommodations. The other person has a letter from employer explaining that they will provide temporary accommodation for the first month so that the employee can have time searching for accommodations.

Jackson2004
Newly Registered
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:51 pm

Re: Irish Visa Application Rejected

Post by Jackson2004 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:38 pm

Thanks very much for the insight. In regards to having my marriage certificate certified in the host country? being able to achieve this is practically impossible. What I can do is provide a certificate of no impediment from just a few weeks before we got married. That should be sufficient proof that she was not already married and thus with proof that our marriage was legally recognised in any other country, I would assume there would be little reason to doubt the genuineness of our marital status from a legal prospective. Would this be enough to convince immigration that our marriage was considered lawful? It was my understanding that the directive affirms that it is the laws of the country host to the marriage which are applicable.

littlerr
Respected Guru
Posts: 2461
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:14 pm
China

Re: Irish Visa Application Rejected

Post by littlerr » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:11 pm

I don't know the rules in Cambodia, but I think you are misunderstanding the request. The Cambodian government does not recognise a foreign document directly. The document needs to be authenticated by the local Foreign Affairs office in Hong Kong, and then have it legalised by Cambodian Embassy in Hong Kong (to prove that the authentication is genuine).

To give you an example. I needed a proof that my Irish passport belongs to the same person who purchased a property in China using a Chinese national ID card. (My national ID card is no longer valid when I got my Irish citizenship.)

Here's what I need to do:
- Go to a solicitor/commissioner for oaths to write a statement to say the details on my Irish passport, details on my previous Chinese ID card and the details on my property sales contract belong to the same person.
- Have the solicitor stamped and signed my statement.
- Bring the statement to Department of Foreign Affairs in Ireland to have it authenticated (to confirm that the solicitor's stamp is genuine).
- Take the authentication document to the Chinese Embassy in Ireland to have it legalised (to confirm that the DFA's authentication is genuine).

If the document is not in English, you would also need to provide a certified translation by an approved party, before having it certified by a solicitor/commissioner for oaths.

I don't know if the rules are identical but all countries who don't join Hague Convention have similar rules.

Although you are not in Hong Kong any more, you should still be able to get a solicitor online from Hong Kong to do all of the above for you.

I would start a new application once you have all of your documents ready, rather than appealing the decision on your existing application, but that's just my opinion.

Jackson2004
Newly Registered
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:51 pm

Re: Irish Visa Application Rejected

Post by Jackson2004 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:16 pm

But Hong Kong is party to The Hague Convention and the document was issued by a government department. It should not require legalisation as far as my understanding as it should already legally be considered valid. Why would the Cambodian Ministry need to legalise a Hong Kong document. Doesn’t a cetificate of no impediment provide enough to prove my wife was not already married.

littlerr
Respected Guru
Posts: 2461
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:14 pm
China

Re: Irish Visa Application Rejected

Post by littlerr » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:49 pm

Jackson2004 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:16 pm
Why would the Cambodian Ministry need to legalise a Hong Kong document. Doesn’t a cetificate of no impediment provide enough to prove my wife was not already married.
Because Cambodia is not part of Hague Convention. They need to satisfy that one of their citizen is in a marriage that is recognised by Cambodia.
As whether the certificate of no impediment is sufficient, you would be better checking with the Irish Embassy in Cambodia. Visa officers in each embassy has a bit different interpretations.

Jackson2004
Newly Registered
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:51 pm

Re: Irish Visa Application Rejected

Post by Jackson2004 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:36 pm

To me that makes no sense. If the Cambodian Ministry of Foreign Affairs (which are not stationed in Hong Kong Consulate) are just legalising the document then they are not acknowledging the validity of the document and it is therefore not possible that it provides the evidence that the VISA office are after.

We sent an email to seek further clarification on what exactly it was that they where after and just got a response with. 'You can answer all of the refusal reasons in your appeal of the decision'. They wont even explain what they mean.

Jackson2004
Newly Registered
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:51 pm

Re: Irish Visa Application Rejected

Post by Jackson2004 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:51 pm

littlerr wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:49 pm
Jackson2004 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:16 pm
Why would the Cambodian Ministry need to legalise a Hong Kong document. Doesn’t a cetificate of no impediment provide enough to prove my wife was not already married.
Because Cambodia is not part of Hague Convention. They need to satisfy that one of their citizen is in a marriage that is recognised by Cambodia.
As whether the certificate of no impediment is sufficient, you would be better checking with the Irish Embassy in Cambodia. Visa officers in each embassy has a bit different interpretations.
But thanks for the information. I am going to get back to the Cambodian Ministry of Foreign Affairs to see if they can legalise the document.

Jackson2004
Newly Registered
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:51 pm

Re: Irish Visa Application Rejected

Post by Jackson2004 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:01 pm

It turned out they had made a mistake, after 5 emails to ask them what they were asking for the original decision maker finally responded by saying that they need the marriage certificate to be certified in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Hong Kong.

Jackson2004
Newly Registered
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:51 pm

Re: Irish Visa Application Rejected

Post by Jackson2004 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:02 pm

It turned out they had made a mistake, after 5 emails to ask them what they were asking for the original decision maker finally responded by saying that they need the marriage certificate to be certified in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Hong Kong.

Locked
cron