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Akin to marriage documentation what are valid sources of correspondence?

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bluepenguine
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unmarried partner - 2 years period calculation

Post by bluepenguine » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:12 pm

Hi,

My partner (British nationality) and I are planning to apply for an unmarried partner visa in Nov 2019 in Thailand. We have been officially living together in Thailand for 2 years from Nov 2017 and from this date we begun ensuring that his Thai bank account was at this address including telephone and some utility bills moved to his name. He has paid towards the mortgage (although not directly but via family's bank account) and has also paid the annual fees on my and my mother's condo - I mention this because this should contribute to the evidence that he has obligations at the condo towards our relationship.

However, during this same two-year period, we have travelled back and forth to the UK. I stayed for many months as his family invited us to stay. My partner sponsored this tourist Visa. During that time, we mostly travelled around and saw difference places and I got to experience the culture and see some sites.

We intend to count the time we visit the UK together as part of of a two-year 'living together' period. I understand that I can't 'live in the UK' on a visitor visa, but since we were effectively on holiday travelling together will this be a problem?

Another point is, my partner is self-employed in the UK and has paid his self assessment taxes over those same two years. Officially he visits Thailand on a Thai tourist visa and maintains his online business from there.

Timeline:

Nov 2017 - Living together in Thailand
Oct 2018 - Travel to the UK (2.5months)
Jan 2019 - Travel back to Thailand
May 2019 - Travel to the UK (5.5 months)
Oct 2019 - Back to Thailand
Nov 2019 - Planning to apply for a visa


Thank you.

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Re: unmarried partner - 2 years period calculation

Post by geoeng » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:10 am

Can you please clarify your partner's visa status in Thailand a bit? If he's repeatedly visiting Thailand as a tourist, it's questionable whether the Home Office would consider that "living together". The time spent together in the UK isn't a problem necessarily as you could be considered as being on holiday together. The problem arises in determining where exactly you think you are " living together" if you alternate between your partner visiting you in Thailand and you visiting your partner in the UK; there's no real evidence of a permanent or sustainable arrangement there. Not saying you be refused a visa for sure, just that you haven't made it easy for yourself.
I'm just a guy on the Internet who immigrated to the UK. My opinions are based on my experience and interpretation of the immigration rules and should not be considered legal or immigration advice; your mileage may vary.

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Re: unmarried partner - 2 years period calculation

Post by bluepenguine » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:57 pm

Hi geoeng,

We're not alternating visiting each others in the sense that we're being apart. We are physically together all the time and he has his name on some of the utility bills at the condo in Thailand. We establish that we live together in Thailand, but travel together for holiday in the UK. My partner visa status in Thailand is a tourist visa.

I'm just worried that the time that we were on holiday together in the UK doesn't count toward "living together" requirements.


thanks

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Re: unmarried partner - 2 years period calculation

Post by bluepenguine » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:58 pm

bluepenguine wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:57 pm
Hi geoeng,

We're not alternating visiting each others in the sense that we're being apart. We are physically together all the time and he has his name on some of the utility bills at the condo in Thailand. We establish that we live together in Thailand, but travel together for holiday in the UK. My partner visa status in Thailand is a tourist visa.

I'm just worried that the time that we were on holiday together in the UK doesn't count toward "living together" requirements.


thanks

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Re: unmarried partner - 2 years period calculation

Post by bluepenguine » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:58 pm

Hi geoeng,

We're not alternating visiting each others in the sense that we're being apart. We are physically together all the time and he has his name on some of the utility bills at the condo in Thailand. We establish that we live together in Thailand, but travel together for holiday in the UK. My partner visa status in Thailand is a tourist visa.

I'm just worried that the time that we were on holiday together in the UK doesn't count toward "living together" requirements.


thanks
[/quote]
[/quote]

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Re: unmarried partner - 2 years period calculation

Post by geoeng » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:17 pm

bluepenguine wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:57 pm
Hi geoeng,

We're not alternating visiting each others in the sense that we're being apart. We are physically together all the time and he has his name on some of the utility bills at the condo in Thailand. We establish that we live together in Thailand, but travel together for holiday in the UK. My partner visa status in Thailand is a tourist visa.

I'm just worried that the time that we were on holiday together in the UK doesn't count toward "living together" requirements.


thanks
I get that, I mean that you're alternating visiting each other because neither of you has the right to reside in the other's country since you're each only entering as tourists (I assume, I'm not entirely familiar with the rights conferred by Thai tourist visas). I don't think the time spent on holiday in the UK is much of a concern provided you could establish that both of you at the time maintained a permanent residence in Thailand while you were travelling. My concern is that you wouldn't be considered living together in Thailand (just a concern of mine and not necessarily what the Home Office in the UK would think). I think your partner would likely struggle to prove residence in Thailand, particularly if he has no tax obligations there and no official documents proving residence (e.g. driving licence, letters from GPs, letters from government departments, even a tenancy agreement). I could very well be wrong though, I'd be interested to hear what others think about this situation as it is rather complicated.
I'm just a guy on the Internet who immigrated to the UK. My opinions are based on my experience and interpretation of the immigration rules and should not be considered legal or immigration advice; your mileage may vary.

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Re: unmarried partner - 2 years period calculation

Post by bluepenguine » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:34 pm

Interesting point. We haven't thought about this aspect. We couldn't have a tenancy agreement as I co-own the place with my mother. It wouldn't make sense to rent a place from myself.

thanks for your thoughts.

(Apologise for posting the same reply many times. I'm new here and I thought I was editing the same post, instead it posted new ones.)

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Re: unmarried partner - 2 years period calculation

Post by geoeng » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:52 am

Another thought to consider: where does the UK government currently think your partner lives? If it's in Thailand then you might be ok. Unfortunately what the Home Office considers "living together" is not well defined in the rules or guidance for unmarried partners nor is it clear what supporting evidence is required so it becomes really hard to provide any real advice.
I'm just a guy on the Internet who immigrated to the UK. My opinions are based on my experience and interpretation of the immigration rules and should not be considered legal or immigration advice; your mileage may vary.

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Re: unmarried partner - 2 years period calculation

Post by bluepenguine » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:41 pm

In Unmarried and same-sex partners: SET05 guidance only set the types of evidence that demonstrate "living together" and a relationship akin to marriage by providing joint commitments documentations, utility bills in both of our names or to each individually to the same address. I'm not sure how far they will consider "living together" looking into my partner's Thai visa type.

It is very complex and tricky indeed.

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Re: unmarried partner - 2 years period calculation

Post by ALKB » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:34 am

bluepenguine wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:34 pm
Interesting point. We haven't thought about this aspect. We couldn't have a tenancy agreement as I co-own the place with my mother. It wouldn't make sense to rent a place from myself.

thanks for your thoughts.

(Apologise for posting the same reply many times. I'm new here and I thought I was editing the same post, instead it posted new ones.)
There are two potential problems:

1. From October 2018 to October 2019 you spent 8 out of 12 months in the UK - that's a lot if you want to count as resident in Thailand. It may also be seen as residing in the UK under the guise of a visitor visa.

2. Your partner wants to use UK income to meet the financial requirement while he wants to be seen as living in Thailand, where he has no legal status that actually allows him to work.

I am guessing that marriage is not an option? That would do away with most of these issues.

It may all sail through but personally, I would not risk it.
I am not a regulated immigration advisor. I am offering an opinion and not advice.

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Re: unmarried partner - 2 years period calculation

Post by bluepenguine » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:51 am

ALKB wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:34 am
bluepenguine wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:34 pm
Interesting point. We haven't thought about this aspect. We couldn't have a tenancy agreement as I co-own the place with my mother. It wouldn't make sense to rent a place from myself.

thanks for your thoughts.

(Apologise for posting the same reply many times. I'm new here and I thought I was editing the same post, instead it posted new ones.)
There are two potential problems:

1. From October 2018 to October 2019 you spent 8 out of 12 months in the UK - that's a lot if you want to count as resident in Thailand. It may also be seen as residing in the UK under the guise of a visitor visa.

2. Your partner wants to use UK income to meet the financial requirement while he wants to be seen as living in Thailand, where he has no legal status that actually allows him to work.

I am guessing that marriage is not an option? That would do away with most of these issues.

It may all sail through but personally, I would not risk it.
Thanks for your thoughts.

We plan to use my partner's savings to meet financial requirement only. So there won't be an issue of his working status in Thailand. We plan to marry in the future but we want to prioritise our finance in creating lives together ( buying a house in the UK together, starting lives in the UK etc) first. I have to admit that there are a lot of concerned points.

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Re: unmarried partner - 2 years period calculation

Post by ALKB » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:17 am

bluepenguine wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:51 am
ALKB wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:34 am
bluepenguine wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:34 pm
Interesting point. We haven't thought about this aspect. We couldn't have a tenancy agreement as I co-own the place with my mother. It wouldn't make sense to rent a place from myself.

thanks for your thoughts.

(Apologise for posting the same reply many times. I'm new here and I thought I was editing the same post, instead it posted new ones.)
There are two potential problems:

1. From October 2018 to October 2019 you spent 8 out of 12 months in the UK - that's a lot if you want to count as resident in Thailand. It may also be seen as residing in the UK under the guise of a visitor visa.

2. Your partner wants to use UK income to meet the financial requirement while he wants to be seen as living in Thailand, where he has no legal status that actually allows him to work.

I am guessing that marriage is not an option? That would do away with most of these issues.

It may all sail through but personally, I would not risk it.
Thanks for your thoughts.

We plan to use my partner's savings to meet financial requirement only. So there won't be an issue of his working status in Thailand. We plan to marry in the future but we want to prioritise our finance in creating lives together ( buying a house in the UK together, starting lives in the UK etc) first. I have to admit that there are a lot of concerned points.

Commendable, but unfortunately not how immigration tends to work.
I am not a regulated immigration advisor. I am offering an opinion and not advice.

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Akin to marriage vs relationship proof evidence

Post by bluepenguine » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:58 pm

We are about to submit our unmarried partner visa and plan to apply using VFS Global from Bangkok.

We found some title sheet separators online whilst looking at how other people had organised their application. One A4 separate title sheet says 'Consent Letter and Proof of Relationship' and another is for 'Additional Documents / Others'.

We intend to submit a series of photos spanning the last 2 years of our relationship. This will serve as proof that we are in a relationship. If we include these photos in one section, will the application be seen as a whole - or will each section be handed to a separate immigration officer.

Our concern is that if we provide photos for 'proof of relationship' in one section, they may not be seen in the akin to marriage section. Our photos include family events including a weddings as funeral. We want to use this to prove we are in a relationship but we also want this to count towards evidence that we are akin to marriage. In my culture, it's very uncommon for a non serious boyfriend to be included in a family gathering. The photo of the family funeral, in our opinion, demonstrates more than just relationship since the family consider as as if we were already married.

Can we use the same photos in two different sections of the visa application?

Should we include photos in both the akin to marriage and the proof of relationship sections (if they are indeed distinct)?

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Re: Akin to marriage vs relationship proof evidence

Post by CR001 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:59 pm

You still have the other obstacles of 'living together when only in a country as a visitor' issues to overcome.

You only have one caseworker/ECO for your application. Different sections of your documents are not spread around a department.

The evidence of 'living together in a relationship akin to marriage' is clearly defined. HO wants to see substantial evidence, from many sources, of joint financial commitments (not via a third party bank account), joint accommodation, joint living expenses.
it's very uncommon for a non serious boyfriend to be included in a family gathering
This is irrelevant.
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Re: Akin to marriage vs relationship proof evidence

Post by bluepenguine » Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:01 pm

Thanks CR001 for the info. Noted your point about the family photo, so we will focus on the financial evidence.

We opened a joint bank account early Sep 2018 and my boyfriend has a statement since early Nov 2017 for his Thai bank account linked to our condo address in Bangkok. His account has transactions for shopping (we use his card because the shop offers us a discount for his debit card). The joint account pays for both his and my phone bill (mine and his separately), condo water bill (in my name), electricity bill (my name), internet bill (his name).

We also have a 2 year history of TransferWise transactions linked to his account. He often tops up the joint account from his Thai account and those transactions can be seen to transfer money between accounts. However, the joint account is rather lacking in detail because the bank is unable to provide details of a lot of the transactions. We managed to get a breakdown of the card payments, but they are single line items such as supermarket name, transfer, Grab taxi, Grab food (online app for transport and take away food) etc.

We have some largest one-off expenses that are linked to his bank account, namely a MacBook pro, an idiot-phone. We made some sporadic payments towards my mum, to contribute to the mortgage (that's in my and her name but is paid by my mum - because the mortgage is significantly cheaper interest rate, as she works for a state enterprise which is joint private and Thai government. I have an annual mortgage statement in both my mum and my name addressed to the condo. We have a few misc bills like a meal receipt hand-written to him at the condo (we asked for it as if we were eating as employees wishing to claim it as a business expense - although it was never used for our purposes).

My partner's passport stamps show a series of Tourist Visas which allow him to stay for 60 days. Usually, he extends his visit at the Thai immigration making each stay around 90 days. Apart from trips to Singapore, in one year he stretched his stay for almost eleven contiguous months in Thailand. This was done without breaking the Thai rules and he has never been questioned or overstayed his visa.

I'm not sure what else we can provide really, unless you have any suggestions?

Should we voluntarily show his Tourist Visa and stamps in and out of Thailand to and from Singapore, or should we just not draw attention to his? Perhaps not providing it be seen as disingenuous and that doesn't sit well with us?

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Re: Akin to marriage vs relationship proof evidence

Post by ALKB » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:19 am

bluepenguine wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:01 pm


I'm not sure what else we can provide really, unless you have any suggestions?

Personally, I would not apply for an unmarried partner visa under these circumstances. You risk having a rejected settlement application on your record, which will make it pretty much impossible for you to even get a visitors visa.

I wish you luck and that everything works out the way you want it to.
I am not a regulated immigration advisor. I am offering an opinion and not advice.

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Re: Akin to marriage vs relationship proof evidence

Post by iwolga » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:57 pm

More or less the same circumstances for myself and my-then-partner speeded up our marriage. We decided that we'd rather have just a ceremony for 2 of us (and we didn't want to invest our money into big family gathering at that point of our lifes) than risk trying to prove that our travelling back and forth to each other counts as living together. On the other hand, you have bank accounts in Thailand opened for your husband name - we did not have it.

I may be totally wrong, but my feeling is that HO takes rather old-fashioned approach towards "living together".

I'd say, if you have time, patience and - important - money is not a big of an issue, try applying.
Yes, you will lose any chance of future visits visas in case of refusal. On the other hand, your partner visa refusal based on true facts shall not be an issue for future applications. What will be an issue is if you try or look like trying to misrepresent facts. In your case there's a chance of being falsely accused of misrepresentation.

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Re: Akin to marriage vs relationship proof evidence

Post by bluepenguine » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:10 am

Thanks guys for your ongoing help.

@iwolga - In what way would our case be seen as misrepresentation? Everything we intend to present is factual and accurate.

If a visa were to be refused, is it always the case that subsequent visits to the UK are also rejected (is there a link to any specific guidelines?). Surely an applicant is no more risk after having failed a UK spouse visa than they were when they had previously been granted a UK visitor visa? If a non law abiding person had wanted to stay illegally they would have already had the chance to have done so?

I already have a 2-year visitor visa that is valid until Oct 2020. Would this be automatically revoked, or wouldn't revocation only apply to failed UK spouse applicants who hadn't previously visited?

Also, if we apply and are rejected for an unmarried partner visa, would it effect our chances of re-application (for example, if we subsequently got married and then applied for a married visa)?

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Re: Akin to marriage vs relationship proof evidence

Post by iwolga » Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:08 am

bluepenguine wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:10 am
Thanks guys for your ongoing help.

@iwolga - In what way would our case be seen as misrepresentation? Everything we intend to present is factual and accurate.

If a visa were to be refused, is it always the case that subsequent visits to the UK are also rejected (is there a link to any specific guidelines?). Surely an applicant is no more risk after having failed a UK spouse visa than they were when they had previously been granted a UK visitor visa? If a non law abiding person had wanted to stay illegally they would have already had the chance to have done so?

I already have a 2-year visitor visa that is valid until Oct 2020. Would this be automatically revoked, or wouldn't revocation only apply to failed UK spouse applicants who hadn't previously visited?

Also, if we apply and are rejected for an unmarried partner visa, would it effect our chances of re-application (for example, if we subsequently got married and then applied for a married visa)?
My thought with misrepresentation was simple. If they read the requirement of co-habitation literally, they might think that you - sort of - try to mislead them saying that you were living together whereas in fact (per their potential view) you were only visiting each other. My advice is just be very careful with what you state and present. I’m not saying you want to mislead them, I’m saying that in a subtle situation like yours it’s easy to be misunderstood.

A person who had his/her settlement visa rejected has (on the eyes of HO) very high risk of coming into the UK and overstaying. People become desperate on not meeting various requirements, with some of the failed applicants thinking “I’m just gonna go there and apply for anything that will allow me to stay”. They come on visit visas, they have home to stay, they apply for asylum, exceptional circumstances or just overstay.

I don’t know what happens with visit visa if your spouse visa gets refused. Probably it’ll be still valid. Note that even if you have valid visa, IO can still refuse entry to UK and send you back home.

No, the refusal itself shall not affect further spouse visa applications. What can affect is being accused of false presentation of the facts/papers. Hence my initial advice to be careful with wording and answers to questionnaire.

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Re: Akin to marriage vs relationship proof evidence

Post by ALKB » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:25 am

bluepenguine wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:10 am

I already have a 2-year visitor visa that is valid until Oct 2020. Would this be automatically revoked, or wouldn't revocation only apply to failed UK spouse applicants who hadn't previously visited?
It is unlikely to be revoked as such, but when you try to enter the UK on it, the settlement refusal will flag up and your visitor visa will probably be cancelled on the spot and entry refused.

Also not something you want on your immigration history.
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What is the specified evidence of previous relationship was broken down

Post by bluepenguine » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:38 pm

We plan to apply for an unmarried partner visa, and both of us have never been married before.
However, my partner (British national) sponsored his ex girlfriend's UK visitor visas several times in the past. The last time was around one year before we met

We wonder what would be the evidence of the previous relationship was broken down? We're not sure if this applies to past boyfriend/girlfriend.

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Re: What is the specified evidence of previous relationship was broken down

Post by iwolga » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:49 pm

No proof needed. Girlfriend/boyfriend is nothing in the eyes of HO unless you live together (well, I guess then you become partners). Sponsoring someone’s visit visa is also different from spousal visas - a friend can sponsor you for that.

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Re: What is the specified evidence of previous relationship was broken down

Post by bluepenguine » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:47 am

Do you mean lived with them in the past?

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Does a Land Registry - Official Copy of Register of Title have to be in the 28 day window?

Post by bluepenguine » Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:03 pm

We are application for the unmarried partner visa. I have two questions regarding the accommodation for the visa.

We intend to live with my partner's parents at their house in the UK. There house does not have a mortgage because they bought it outright a few years ago.

1.
The register or title is dated September 2019 (it's an official copy PDF we got by post). If we apply in next couple of weeks will the title be valid given it's age? I did a search online and none of the information has aged, but to get another printed copy involves another form, postage, waiting, scanning etc.

2.
Since the register shows no loans or mortgage against the house and has never had a mortgage paid off since it was paid outright, the Section C Charges register shows nothing about any debt. It only shows two sections regarding transfer of land back in 199 and 2002 long before his parents owned the property (about 1 or 2 years).

Does the absence of any debt in the charges register prove the house is paid for, or do we need to provide something else? Obviously we can't provide mortgage statements.

We have an invitation letter from his parents and this letter also states they paid for the house (so just a declaration from them - nothing official).

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Akin to marriage documentation what are valid sources of correspondence?

Post by bluepenguine » Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:39 pm

We began living together in November 2017 at my condo. The first utility bills we have in my partner's name is September 2018. However, a recent invoice dated Dec 2019, from a local co-working space to the condo, shows his membership start date to be February 2018.

1. Is this a strong enough correspondence linking him to the condo for February 2018?

He also ordered a MacBook Pro of significant value to the condo in his name and he has the invoice for this to his name at the condo for February 2018. As it's a one off purchase should we consider this a weaker proof of living together.

His personal bank accounts link to the condo from November 2017 onwards. Our joint bank account didn't get opened until September 2018 (about 1.5 years ago). Phone, internet start in his name from September 2018 onwards. During the months of Nov 17, Dec 17, Jan 18, Feb 18 x 2 and May 18 we have screenshots of summary TransferWise transactions funding his local bank account from the UK. A few later receipts have the address on them.

We feel we might be a little light on documentation for him in the period of November 2017 to August 2018. Although, his bank transactions show payments for local food supermarkets and money withdrawals. I have Google spreadsheets with version history showing are cash expenses during the earlier November 2017 period.

I have plenty of documents linking me to the condo during the earlier months so we included more of these to pad the thinner parts. One of the problems is that the electricity could never have been be in his name as he doesn't own the condo (I do). We can only show that he paid for these using card or cash.


2. What can we do to establish a stronger link to the condo during the months where he didn't have correspondence?

3. If a bill is in my name but he paid it using his bank card (and that transaction is shown or we point it out) does that count indirectly?

4. How are we doing for akin to marriage documentation?

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