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Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

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Phaedra
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Phaedra » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:19 pm

So,I'm a little lost.

Where does this all leave us now? With no official updates, no word on when processing will start again. No concrete idea which steps follow (ratification of new legislation or an appeal of the original decision).

I mean, am I missing something or is there just no indication of how to move forward now at all?

What is there to monitor or which date is there to wait for, next?

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by markem » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:46 am

Phaedra wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:19 pm
Where does this all leave us now?
The next milestone is the Court of Appeal ruling. It could be delivered today, or it could take much longer. No way to find out (unless you work in the CoA!)

You can see the latest rulings here but it's more likely you'll hear about it in the news before it gets put up there.

What happens after that depends on the ruling. The worst case scenario (I think) is that it goes in favour of the Minister, but against Jones. Jones (advised by lawyers who would love the publicity) takes a further appeal to the Supreme Court, which takes months, if not years, to be heard.
Timeline threads here:
2020 /
2019 / 2018 / 2017 / 2016

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by eraylankester » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:31 am

Not sure it would be the worst case. Jones’s case contested INIS’s decision regarding discretionary absence. He wasn’t contesting their ability to use discretionary powers, just how they were applied in his situation. It was the original judge who threw a spanner in the works by contesting the basic concept of discretion.

Should the appeal court find with INIS but against Jones, he could proceed to the Supreme Court to argue the decision in his case, which isn’t about this principal per se but how it was applied to him, but the government would no longer be arguing against the original judgment (effectively they were a plaintiff in the appeal - a very odd situation in a case which the government won on paper, which explains the ).

Should the court rule that INIS can consider discretionary absence, I would expect INIS to recommence the decision making process. Cases are brought against government departments and that contest legislation every week - yet the business of government does not grind to a halt. It has only in this case because the judge ruled against the government. If this judgment is overturned for this reason, it would make no sense for Jones to appeal to the Supreme Court on that particular basis (the right to use discretionary powers) as his argument, as I understand it, is that these powers should be extended rather than curtailed.

So, should INIS be vindicated, I expect to see a rush to confer before any further issues may emerge. Legislation too, if permissible before any further appeal.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by markem » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:52 am

eraylankester wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:31 am
Not sure it would be the worst case.
All good points. We can't know what grounds an appeal could take as it would depend on the ruling. My inner pessimist thinks there is probably a worst case scenario out there which we haven't yet imagined. That might be another appeal, additional complexity in the ruling, a delay in getting legislation through the Dail, a second case, a Ministerial resignation, etc.
Timeline threads here:
2020 /
2019 / 2018 / 2017 / 2016

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Lily3 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:12 pm

Hi all
Any ideas when this issue will be resolved? Like in this year or not?

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Stanina » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:41 pm

Lily3 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:12 pm
Hi all
Any ideas when this issue will be resolved? Like in this year or not?
My inner pessimist says in beginning February will be new law, that will clear situation.

There was comment from the attorney that decision will be within few weeks/Month on the appeal. Although it depends what decision it is. I will say first weeks of November court decision, December or January law...
My speculations and guesses though.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Alixlboy » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:41 pm

Both INIS and the court need to get this issue resolved ASAP.
It is stupid and unfair to keep applicants waiting for ages due to one wrong decision from the court.
INIS issued citizenship approvals to thousands of people and nobody had a clue about what the law stated or did not state until a grumpy judge issues a ruling based on Oxford Dictionary. Since when have the judges got the right to take literal meaning of everything? Are they free to decide peoples fate based on dictionaries and ignoring all facts and figures? I find it totally disgusting.
Rather than being pessimistic about the situation, we need to protest and highlight how stupid and hilarious the decision is and how irresponsible irish judges can be. Do they even know what the impact and/or effect of their decision will be before passing a judgement?
Why do we not question INIS' or High Court's ability to handle things like this?
Do the irish judges even know how the government departments are working in Ireland?
Do they even read the news and get a full investigation carried out before issuing such rulings or do they spend days and nights studying the good old Oxford Dictionary?
If we dont put pressure, who is going to get things resolved for us? That judge or INIS? I believe nobody. INIS said they will get the issue resolved ASAP and even encouraged the applicants to keep lodging the applications, and it s been weeks and the issue is still pending a resolution. How inefficient!
If we are not willing to help ourselves, nobody else will help us either.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by luckyfish1985 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:04 am

@Alixlboy : I totally agree with you.

Till now everyone in Irish gov. waited to get over with Brexit issue Oct 31 dead line. (That's never ending story :roll: )

I hope someone will take initiative and do something for this pending applications. its building like a mountain.

"8 October 2019, there were some 19,172 decisions pending for the years 2016 – 2019. "

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/qu ... nswers-141

Ppl will think of Halloween and late XMas :roll:

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by zaza7625 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:23 am

So let’s arrange a massive demonstrations in front of INIS and high court to show them who make a decision that we are not alone, let’s show them that we are standing together. Otherwise no one will come to our homes and no one gonna help us .
Spread out the information that we are gonna gather in dublin streets and we ll see what happens

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Lily3 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:24 am

It seems this year they are not going to do anything.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by dk2019 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:15 am

zaza7625 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:23 am
So let’s arrange a massive demonstrations in front of INIS and high court to show them who make a decision that we are not alone, let’s show them that we are standing together. Otherwise no one will come to our homes and no one gonna help us .
Spread out the information that we are gonna gather in dublin streets and we ll see what happens
I think it is the only way to draw attention! How can we get people together?

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Bealtaine » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:15 pm

Alixlboy wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:41 pm
Both INIS and the court need to get this issue resolved ASAP.
It is stupid and unfair to keep applicants waiting for ages due to one wrong decision from the court.
INIS issued citizenship approvals to thousands of people and nobody had a clue about what the law stated or did not state until a grumpy judge issues a ruling based on Oxford Dictionary.
I agree they need to resolve it ASAP but its unfair to call him grumpy. Judges do refer to dictionaries all the time and he was right re legislature. The law is far too ambitious and should’ve stated ‘...Absence of 6 weeks prior to application for Naturalization is allowed’.

Yes, it buffs me that he merely looked up ‘continuous’ and not ‘residence’ too. One would need a legal residence permit to officially/legally reside in a state. A visit elsewhere out of the State does not render one a resident of that country. Eg. I’m legally residing in Ireland with a valid residence permit and my travelling to Timbuktu for a holiday wouldn’t render me a resident there.

The Minister shouldn’t have discretionary powers as one can argue either way re his decision and what it was based on. Everything should be clear and no room for error.

Please don’t get me wrong- this affects me too. I selfishly wish all this wasn’t getting sorted whilst my application is being processed.

I never thought Brexit would go ahead - just felt absolutely odd. There are far too compounding factors! It was extended once and might again.

I pondered on how the Ministry of Justice & Equality would have the citizenship procedure get affected bar the exponential rise in applications and I realized the Brit citizens who are here with their family members would need to have their visa status changed. They’re probably prepping for that.

I think applications are still being processed pending the final word/judgement that we should be expecting in early November re the 6 week period. Legislature is definitely needed though and they’ll go through that. My hope is that the appealed judgement would work in favour of us with the 6 week period that is allowed and that they go ahead with legislature to change it once and for all, holding ceremonies in the meantime. It would unfortunately be rather embarrassing for the State with the backlog, the application process, etc when light is thrown into it.

Having chatted with friends, I’ve come to realize that people are approved/processed faster than others possibly due to the fact that their files aren’t too thick. I literally sent them everything + more based what others have been asked for eg. GP’s letter, etc. I had a cover page, a table of cont. too! Of course someone would look at the big folder and decide to process a much thinner folder. :) Not that I’m in agreement with this/condoning them- just makes sense, doesn’t it?

Re a stand-in/protest, please ensure you look at everything legally ie. seeking permission if required (I don’t know what it entails and what the laws governing the same state). Last thing you need is to have a mark attached to your name which could hinder your application.

We all agree that this isn’t a nice experience but we can agree that a few things are necessary - legislature, etc. We are passionate about this as it is directly affecting us. I do beat myself up for not having applied a year and a half ago when I was legible but I wasn’t sure if I was ready to give up my current citizenship as my country of origin does not allow dual citizenship.

Apologies for lapsing into a monologue or soliloquy. It is vital that whilst we exercise our right of free speech, that we don’t unnecessarily verbally assassinate another’s character (apologies.. not being dramatic here even though I’m from the land of Bollywood!) :)

Yours in waiting,
Bealtaine
(Nope.. not supporting anyone here. I’d really like this sorted ASAP but one has to get on with life whilst waiting!)

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by botabo » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:29 pm

dk2019 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:15 am
zaza7625 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:23 am
So let’s arrange a massive demonstrations in front of INIS and high court to show them who make a decision that we are not alone, let’s show them that we are standing together. Otherwise no one will come to our homes and no one gonna help us .
Spread out the information that we are gonna gather in dublin streets and we ll see what happens
I think it is the only way to draw attention! How can we get people together?
I am also for it. Let me know day and time and I'll be there.
I think a peaceful demonstration is fair, it can also be informative.
I talked about this issue to some of my friends. They didn't know anything at all.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Alixlboy » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:14 pm

zaza7625 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:23 am
So let’s arrange a massive demonstrations in front of INIS and high court to show them who make a decision that we are not alone, let’s show them that we are standing together. Otherwise no one will come to our homes and no one gonna help us .
Spread out the information that we are gonna gather in dublin streets and we ll see what happens
Fully Agreed.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by irishsaint » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:24 pm

I'm behind this

On a side note, after 20+ calls and no answer this morning, I emailed in regarding travel allowances once we've submitted an application and receieved a reply @ 7:30 pm tonight

"Once your application is submitted, short absences for holidays & work
purposes are permitted.

Regards

Citizenship Helpdesk
Team 4"

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by M7edShin » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:12 pm

Alixlboy wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:14 pm
So let’s arrange a massive demonstrations in front of INIS and high court to show them who make a decision that we are not alone, let’s show them that we are standing together. Otherwise no one will come to our homes and no one gonna help us .
Spread out the information that we are gonna gather in dublin streets and we ll see what happens
I agree with that too. I am not sure if it's allowed here (We can get someone who will setup a WhatsApp/Facebook group and everyone private message him your phone number or create a FB group and post it here then we gather as many people as possible then set it up as event in front of the office. I am sure we need to get permission from the Garda/Government for that (Not sure about the law but worth check it)

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by CR001 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:15 am

M7edShin wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:12 pm
Alixlboy wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:14 pm
So let’s arrange a massive demonstrations in front of INIS and high court to show them who make a decision that we are not alone, let’s show them that we are standing together. Otherwise no one will come to our homes and no one gonna help us .
Spread out the information that we are gonna gather in dublin streets and we ll see what happens
I agree with that too. I am not sure if it's allowed here (We can get someone who will setup a WhatsApp/Facebook group and everyone private message him your phone number or create a FB group and post it here then we gather as many people as possible then set it up as event in front of the office. I am sure we need to get permission from the Garda/Government for that (Not sure about the law but worth check it)
Not permitted to be posted on the forum and if this line of posting is going to continue, this topic will be locked.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by aneelrahim » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:28 am

Dáil Éireann Schedule

Dáil Éireann resumes on Tuesday 5 Nov at 2pm.

So I think there is no chance of ceremony in Nov.

If the court verdict announce in early Nov and new law pass in mid Nov then there is a hope that we will get ceremony in Dec.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Omad24 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:09 am

But it’s not up to them. We are waiting for those judges verdicts

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by aneelrahim » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:38 pm

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 24 Oct 2019

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2019-10-24/22/?highlight%5B0%5D=citizenship


Screenshot_2019-10-25 Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 24 Oct 2019.png
Screenshot_2019-10-25 Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 24 Oct 2019.png (20.79 KiB) Viewed 2822 times

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Bealtaine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:55 pm

aneelrahim wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:38 pm
Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 24 Oct 2019

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2019-10-24/22/?highlight%5B0%5D=citizenship


Screenshot_2019-10-25 Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 24 Oct 2019.png
Thank you.

What does ‘’this season’’ officially translate to?

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Lily3 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:58 pm

Bealtaine wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:55 pm
aneelrahim wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:38 pm
Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 24 Oct 2019

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2019-10-24/22/?highlight%5B0%5D=citizenship

Exactly my question too which session and when it is on please?



Screenshot_2019-10-25 Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 24 Oct 2019.png
Thank you.

What does ‘’this season’’ officially translate to?

Stanina
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Stanina » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:20 pm

Bealtaine wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:55 pm
aneelrahim wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:38 pm
Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 24 Oct 2019
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2019-10-24/22/?highlight%5B0%5D=citizenship
Screenshot_2019-10-25 Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 24 Oct 2019.png
Thank you.
What does ‘’this season’’ officially translate to?
+1
Good info but Is it till July 2020? https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachta ... ngs_en.pdf

atc
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by atc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:22 pm

I believe the current session runs until mid December when they then go on a 4 week break before the first session of 2020 begins.

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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Nre123 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:50 pm

I still remember when i told everyone that this will delay everything by atleast 7-8 months....we are already 1 month post the planned ceremony in sep. Law and legal issues take time to resolve....I would say at this stage that next ceremony would be in April next year earliest.

Unfortunately this will make normal processing times even longer due to huge backlog !

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