First Adult British Passport Application, currently living overseas

Hi,
I was naturalized as a British citizen in 2018, and am in possession of a British naturalization certificate, but moved to mainland Europe around 3 months ago. I never applied for a first adult British passport as I have other nationalities as well, and didn't deem it as important at the time.

I noticed that it's indeed possible to apply for a first adult British Passport while resident overseas. The problem is that all my references who would be fitting the criteria in terms of length of knowing me as well as profession reside in the UK.

Thus I have a couple of questions and am wondering if anybody has any practical experience or advice on this:

Is it possible to apply from another EU country for a first adult British Passport? - The government website I checked seems to suggest that that's possible.

Can the online payment be done from my still existing British bank account? - I presume so?

Can the required British reference be resident back in the UK ? ( apparently they can agree to confirm my identity via e-mail ? but I don't know if they have to be resident in the same country, or they can be based back in the UK??)

Where would a possible passport interview be taking place? At a British embassy overseas?

Would my original passport of my other nationality have to physically be sent in the mail? Or are notarized copies of each and every page acceptable?

Thanks in advance for any answers in this matter, quite possible also if somebody has been in a similar situation?

99point9 wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:38 pm

I noticed that it's indeed possible to apply for a first adult British Passport while resident overseas.

I would not go down that route.

There have been two reported cases on these forums where the Passport Office has taken the fact that the applicant went abroad immediatly after naturalisation to mean that they lied about the "future intentions" part of the naturalisation form (that you intent the UK to be your future home) and passed the case to the Home Office to look at revoking the naturalisation and British citizenship altogether.

You may be better off requesting for a British passport when you return to the UK.

Remember that you need to send in all your uncancelled passports in with your passport application and therefore may not be able to travel for a while, while your British passport application is being processed. So you may want to make some space in your diary for that purpose.

Thanks for the advance warning on this. Your point makes sense to some degree. But also I'd be interested in returning to the UK, otherwise I wouldn't have done the naturalization process. I am still in my 40ies and at this point the Home Office can't determine, whether I actually live outside of the UK for just one or two years or for the rest of my life as this is something happening in the future. I also left the UK a good 6 months after naturalization, even taking a new job in the UK after naturalization.

The intention to live in the UK as a future intention can however still be a true statement in the application, if the absence is only for one or two years, having previously lived in the UK for 10 years.

I think that the logic they will use is that you left the UK in the immediate aftermath of your naturalisation, suggesting that you do not have an intention of residing in the UK in the future. You may then be invited to prove the contrary.

I would suggest spending much more time in the UK in the near future.

It does make sense in that way. However strictly looking at the question, I seem to recall something like "Do you intend to live in the UK?". The question is about intention, not an affirmative confirmation. Otherwise it would be "Do you affirm that you will be living in the UK for the rest of your life?". And that's rather clear, I'd say.

In my case, as said, I've left the UK more than 6 months after being naturalized. I intend to return to the UK. I've kept British bank accounts, including a sizeable amount in my savings account, my British private pension plan, all to be used upon return. It's just that at this point, the exact date of my return is unclear.

The reason, I don't have a British passport is that my jobs always required me to travel at short notice, often even one day trips to mainland Europe. Thus sending passports in the mail and not knowing when it will be returned, wasn't an option.

Currently there may not be a legal requirement for a naturalized Brit to enter the UK on a British passport. A naturalized Brit also doesn't seem to have a legal requirement to apply and hold a passport, nor is there an expiry date on a naturalization document for citizenship. That law might change at some point? I simply use my current passport of an EU country to enter. For job and employment purposes, I advertise that I am a naturalized Brit, for legal purposes and ease of employment.

At this point I am not aware if I am doing something illegal, not regarding the official gov. websites I've researched.

99point9 wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:39 pm

Thanks for the advance warning on this. Your point makes sense to some degree. But also I'd be interested in returning to the UK, otherwise I wouldn't have done the naturalization process. I am still in my 40ies and at this point the Home Office can't determine, whether I actually live outside of the UK for just one or two years or for the rest of my life as this is something happening in the future. I also left the UK a good 6 months after naturalization, even taking a new job in the UK after naturalization.

The intention to live in the UK as a future intention can however still be a true statement in the application, if the absence is only for one or two years, having previously lived in the UK for 10 years.

I think one of the key issues is with respect to your taxes.
I don’t know what the tax arrangement is with the EU (assuming the country you moved to is a member). Ideally, you will have to declare to the HMRC whether you are a resident or non resident. As a resident, I believe you will still be expected to pay your taxes to the HMRC. And to be a non resident, you must be out of the country for a length of time without visiting the U.K. Here is the tricky part, if you’re claiming to be a non-resident for tax purposes 6 months after naturalisation, how then can you claim to want to have U.K. as your permanent home?

If I can offer another point of view...

You are most likely in your right and a court will side with you. But naturalisation is by discretion, so you have no rights, just privilege. So HO (secretary of state) has all the rights to question anything. And even then you will probably be OK in the end, but....

In practice the point everyone here is making is to avoid these questions and delays, and having to prove your intentions. And the main point of the forum is offer experiences, not so much to interpret the law (although many help with that too as non lawyers).

Finally, you don't have to convince the forum, but the HMPO or HO if a flag is raised (I think I even read a case where HO had no problem but the passport office was querying the application and the back and forth is just not worth the risk).

I would still presume to a high degree of safety that whatever I am doing is within the law. It may be unorthodox, what I am doing, however it still seems within the law. I would agree that to a large extend it's to avoid anybody asking unpleasant questions.

Getting British citizenship taken away would in my opinion require a court date and a judicial decision. After all Habeas Corpus and Magna Carta are mentioned in the citizenship exam. One definite reason for having British citizenship taken away would be joining some terrorist organization, IS or something like that. Something which is incompatible with British law or values. My criminal record is clean in every country I've lived in.

Moving away from the UK little more than 6 months after naturalization would most likely not be considered as something like that, nor would it constitute lying in the citizenship application if the question is only about "intent to live in the UK" not "confirming to reside in the UK". As the HMRC is mentioned, I think it's also the law to declare oneself as non UK tax resident, as one is required to pay tax in the other country as well anyway. In the end, I'd only be complying with the tax laws.

In the end citizenship is also stronger for a case of return, as ILR. EU citizens in Brexit-UK are doing just that, to come and go as they are used to and citizenship offers exactly just that.
ILR or "settled status" seems to expire at some point, after two years. Citizenship doesn't have that, it's one of the benefits of having it.

I think you are rationalising your own circumstances. HO has come down hard on dual citizens who have had similar profile and history and you need to ask yourself if it’s worth the risk?

All you have to do is apply for your first passport from the UK to mitigate the risk.

Why not do that? Why go down the path of courts, SRU, years of delays and stress?

Plotoder wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:16 am

I think you are rationalising your own circumstances. HO has come down hard on dual citizens who have had similar profile and history and you need to ask yourself if it’s worth the risk?

All you have to do is apply for your first passport from the UK to mitigate the risk.

Why not do that? Why go down the path of courts, SRU, years of delays and stress?

What you are describing as "rationalising" is only based on my own research on legal matters and reading government websites. I was naturalized as a Brit, just by following the rules exactly as described and thus I was successful.

Your warning makes sense, however I still don't see any legal basis for it, as I haven't read anything about that on any official site. There is no legal rule, how long any newly naturalized Brit has to live in the country, and when his / her absence is no longer deemed as "intention to live in the UK permanently". An "intention" is only an intention, not a guarantee, and certainly not any number of years is mentioned.

I see it more as an advance warning, and any kind of case officer at the home office who has had a bad day and tries to cause some additional trouble for an applicant.

The reason why I never applied for a British passport is simply the requirement to send any existing passport in the mail, not knowing when they would return it, plus my job requirement to travel at short notice on any UK based job I have held. The passport interview wouldn't be any kind of concern. Just another appointment somewhere, meeting and another officer who is asking questions..... If the criminal record is clean, no issues will arise.

The ILR process for EU citizens and also the British citizenship application process always gave the option to visit some office in person, and get the passport back on the very same day. The first adult passport application doesn't offer that option, hence my struggle.

I totally appreciate the way you think.
Brit passport takes 2 weeks. You can call and get it expedited as well. Interviews are rare.

aman90 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:27 am

I totally appreciate the way you think.
Brit passport takes 2 weeks. You can call and get it expedited as well. Interviews are rare.

I can only read the government websites and follow the rules and comply with the law.

Currently as I understand, there is no legal requirement for a British citizen to have a British passport as well. The naturalization document does not have any conditions attached on how long I could be absent from the UK and when I would have to return. I could well return at age 60, and even live in the UK on a foreign private pension as well, als long as I would comply with HMRC tax laws everything should be fine. There is also no legal requirement to re-enter the UK as a British citizen on a British passport.

For instance, Canadian citizens have by law to have a Canadian passport in order to return. The law is in existence ever since the last 5 years or so?

99point9 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:46 am

aman90 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:27 am

I totally appreciate the way you think.
Brit passport takes 2 weeks. You can call and get it expedited as well. Interviews are rare.

I can only read the government websites and follow the rules and comply with the law.

Currently as I understand, there is no legal requirement for a British citizen to have a British passport as well. The naturalization document does not have any conditions attached on how long I could be absent from the UK and when I would have to return. I could well return at age 60, and even live in the UK on a foreign private pension as well, als long as I would comply with HMRC tax laws everything should be fine. There is also no legal requirement to re-enter the UK as a British citizen on a British passport.

For instance, Canadian citizens have by law to have a Canadian passport in order to return. The law is in existence ever since the last 5 years or so?

I have to say that I like your positive approach. And again all the suggestions given in this thread is not to say you’re wrong or you have don’t something bad. It’s simply about calling your attention to what could happen based on what other people in the forum have experienced.
It looks to me that you know what you are doing and already have all the information you need to proceed with your passport application as it pleases you. I don’t think any suggestion from here will make you change your mind especially if they are not what you were expecting to hear.
If you have read all the govt guidelines about the application you’re about to make, and you’re confident you want to proceed. I guess our opinions do not matter then. We are all different in our approach.

I wish you all the best. And please update the forum once you have applied and you know the outcome. Your case could also help others in a similar situation.

There is certainly an element of uncertainty, otherwise I wouldn't have raised the question.

The two cases which were mentioned here, are not exactly that straight forward, as my case. Maybe there is somebody in this forum who is exactly in the same situation.

Ultimately it's down to the question about "Intention to reside in the UK" or "Commitment to reside in the UK".

I still wound understand "Intention" as something which is in my definite plans at this moment in time, but doesn't necessarily have to be put into reality.

However, I don't know how the Home Office understand that question in the citizenship application.

And yes, ultimately, I plan to return to the UK, but can't commit to any specific dates, due to job and uncertainties reasons.