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Judgement Day for Court case for non EU spouses - C-127/08

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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voh7
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Post by voh7 » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:06 pm

Good point about the appeals question I have looked up about the ECJ and it seems the decision is binding so I don't think they have any way to appeal it. I would say thatas there has been no comment from the DoJ so far that they are not.
Am so pleased about this decision it's been a long time coming :D .

limey
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Post by limey » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:53 pm

Its scandalous that the Irish government got away with it for so long.

Everyone on this site knew the correct interpretation of the EU directive. My wife and I wanted to go and live in Ireland but instead now live in the UK due to this Irish immigration scandal!

We still intend moving to Ireland in the next year or two.

Well done to all those who stood up and fought this injustice!

gksaphire
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Re: Judgement Day for Court case for non EU spouses - C-127/

Post by gksaphire » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:29 am

First-Class Moron wrote:The judgement day would be on the 25th of july, start praying or doing whatever it takes for a positive result guys. Good luck to all and God bless.
Anyone knows what the next step is ? Will the DOJ make an annnouncment ? will the concede defeat ? or will they fight back with another directive ? Any suggestion or development since the announcment yesterday ?

John
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Post by John » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:57 am

Here is the news report from RTE.

Great news!
John

Ben
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Post by Ben » Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:50 am

John wrote:Here is the news report from RTE.

Great news!
The RTE article states: "The Department of Justice says officials in the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service is considering today's judgment."

Trying to work out how they can impose other restrictions, more like it.

What worries me, from the judgment, is the last bit: "..the host Member State is, however, entitled to impose penalties, in compliance with the directive, for entry into and residence in its territory in breach of the national rules on immigration."

If I were a betting man I'd back that the DoJ are busy beavering away, trying desperately to find ways to use this. We might even see national rules on immigration being amended before long.

voh7
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Post by voh7 » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:59 pm

I wouldn't be too worried about that last bit Germany have a similar rule implemented and what happens there is once you get your residency permit you are given a fine which you can go to court to negotiate over apparently it is usually around four hundred euros which you start paying only once you have a job and you can pay it off in installments. As it also states there can be no penalty which infringes on the right of residence I guess they may do something like this

Ben
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Post by Ben » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:44 pm

voh7 wrote:I wouldn't be too worried about that last bit Germany have a similar rule implemented and what happens there is once you get your residency permit you are given a fine which you can go to court to negotiate over apparently it is usually around four hundred euros which you start paying only once you have a job and you can pay it off in installments. As it also states there can be no penalty which infringes on the right of residence I guess they may do something like this
Under what circumstances, for example? What's the reason for the fine?
I am no longer posting publicly on this website - PM me if needed.

voh7
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Post by voh7 » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:03 pm

The circumstances are illegally entering the country and residing there it's only fairly recently they have brought this in my husbands cousin had a fine imposed after he was granted his residency for this very reason.

Ben
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Post by Ben » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:20 pm

voh7 wrote:The circumstances are illegally entering the country and residing there it's only fairly recently they have brought this in my husbands cousin had a fine imposed after he was granted his residency for this very reason.
Do you mean, for example, in the case of a person who is present in an EU Member State illegally (e.g., overstayed visa / failed asylum seeker), then subsequently becomes a family member of an EU citizen (i.e., by marriage)?

In the above case, the family member would be covered by Directive 2004/38/EC as a family member of an EU citizen. However, you're saying that, after granting the family member the Residence Card, the host Member State may be entitled to fine the family member for their period of unlawful entry / residence in the State before they became a family member of an EU citizen?

Have I understood you correctly?
I am no longer posting publicly on this website - PM me if needed.

astartes
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Post by astartes » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:15 pm

Only a first step towards exposing the mafia-like behavior of the Irish DoJ, which is supported on all levels by the corrupt Irish justice system.

You can count on them coming up with something else in order to cheat on their EU obligations, in line with the chauvinistic attitude they have consistently displayed until now.

Do not relax yet. They will do everything possible to stall and frustrate, no matter how disgusting and illegal that might be.
Last edited by astartes on Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ben
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Post by Ben » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:17 pm

astartes - you're back! :!:
I am no longer posting publicly on this website - PM me if needed.

astartes
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Post by astartes » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:26 pm

desifighter wrote:Thats a great news :)...can anyone tell me do we have to go immigration office and change the VISA, as i have Stamp 4 for one year, or do you think we have to contact our solicter to be sure that this time we get everything what we have to.......

We will get 5 years or one years EUFAM Stamp ?
Go though your solicitor if you can afford it. They'll try to come up with something else, that's their way. Do not imagine for a moment that the Irish system plays by the rules. They are little more than a corrupt mafia.

astartes
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Post by astartes » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:32 pm

voh7 wrote:Good point about the appeals question I have looked up about the ECJ and it seems the decision is binding so I don't think they have any way to appeal it.
The ECJ is the highest court in the EU, its decisions are binding for EU states and supersede national laws. However this was only a request fro clarification in the case brought to the Irish High Court, and they still have ways to stall and harass -- you can bet on them doing anything possible to avoid doing the right thing. The basic perception is that foreigners should be allowed in Ireland only as servants, otherwise they are a threat. A result of the nationalistic education system of the RoI.

voh7
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Post by voh7 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:27 pm

Yes benifa that is what I meant, my husbands cousin sought asylum in Germany and while he was waiting to hear from them married his wife his asylum was refused but he was given leave to remain under eu treaty rights after he received his documentation he was issued a fine it was originallly one thousand euro but brought down to four hundred on appeal he had to start paying once he had a job and the money came directly from his wages.

voh7
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Post by voh7 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:40 pm

Was just given this link by a family member these are not my views just thought it was quite interesting.
http://www.eureferendum.blogspot.com/20 ... -mugs.html

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:23 am

It is great to hear this news....as Im in the same situation as everyone in Ireland .....my husband entered Italy a couple of years before we met and married......when we applied for his residence card....as I'm a EU citizen (IRISH) exercising my treaty rights in Italy...and have been doing since 2002.....we were refused (after waiting almost 2 years for a responce) on the basis that he had been illegal before we married.....we then brought the case to court appealing the deicision and are now awaiting the decision of the judge!!! I hope she has seen this new ruling before she makes her decision!!! We have waited so long!!!

Can anybody give me any advise on what I should do should the Italian judge not rule in our favour!!!! Would be most grateful!!!

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:47 am

ciaramc, do you say this is happening to you in Italy?

My wife was "illegal" for 20 days in Italy (expired visa) and she got her residence card the day after the marriage (no fingerprints requested either).

What does he have? a PDS ex art 19? One way to solve this is simply to go back to his home country and apply for a visa per ricongiungimento familiare (family reunion) or familiare al seguito (accompanying family member) They can't deny that visa (based on the Italian Constitution).

Maybe the fact we spoke to the head of the Immigration dept before we married, explaining our situation, had something to do with our luck?

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:23 am

Hey Richard66

We have spoken a couple of times!!!

Yes Italy I remember your story and sorry to say you are one of the lucky ones.....my husband was in Italy a lot longer than 20 days before we married and we have been waiting since 2006 for a responce....we are now awaiting a decision from the Tribunale......

But I think the new sentenza will help us just not sure about how to go about it????

Richard 66??? I was actually thinking of going to the Irish embassy here in Italy and applying for a visa for my husband!!! Ok here in Italy the have not given him a CDS....but he has a right to be here as a spouse of a European citizen exercising her treaty rights??? No?

What do you think?

ewe9
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Post by ewe9 » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:38 pm

Hi!
Can someone tell me what we should do now? How long it will take now to get visa if our application was already refused?

astartes
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Post by astartes » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:40 pm

voh7 wrote:Was just given this link by a family member these are not my views just thought it was quite interesting.
http://www.eureferendum.blogspot.com/20 ... -mugs.html
More fascist propaganda from the BNP and its sympathizers.

The majority of rejected spouse residency applications under EU mobility rights involves spouses of non-African nationality-- Eastern European, US, Japanese, Korean. The arguments in the article you quoted are representative of the chauvinism and beloved which informs the attitude of the Irish DoJ towards non-EU spouses. The basic argument brought by them to the ECJ was along the lines of Ireland being "taken over by foreigners" --quite telling of the true motivations behind their violations of EU law. The ECJ ruling alludes to this attitude in its formulation.

Ireland has no basis to complain about immigration of EU citizens, which involves rights for their spouses under a EU treaty which the RoI has signed. It should be mentioned that a very large number of Irish nationals live in other EU countries, and that a vast Irish immigration is present in the US. There is a large number of Irish nationals who are in the US illegally, some of them involved with crime.

Double standards are not acceptable.

Ireland is free to pursue an anti-European closed borders policy, provided that it first exits the European Union.

Regarding fears about fertility rates etc (subtly implied in the article you quoted), it should be pointed out that immigrants to Ireland (most of whom are Eastern European rather than African) have lower fertility rates than the Irish population at large. Ireland had one of the highest fertility rates among "Caucasian" populations for the past 60 years, which explains the vastness of the Irish emigration during that period. Irish families with 5 or more siblings are quite common in the RoI.

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Post by dsab85 » Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:42 pm

astartes, please do us all a favour and shut up with your crap, and stop spamming the whole Irish board with your nonsense. Complete pain in the back you are... get a life, or at least try to get on with your current one.

And if you don't like it, then leave...but just stop putting up these silly messages. (and btw... no, I am not Irish but one of the previously affected EU citizens)
astartes wrote:
voh7 wrote:Was just given this link by a family member these are not my views just thought it was quite interesting.
http://www.eureferendum.blogspot.com/20 ... -mugs.html
More fascist propaganda from the BNP and its sympathizers.

The majority of rejected spouse residency applications under EU mobility rights involves spouses of non-African nationality-- Eastern European, US, Japanese, Korean. The arguments in the article you quoted are representative of the chauvinism and beloved which informs the attitude of the Irish DoJ towards non-EU spouses. The basic argument brought by them to the ECJ was along the lines of Ireland being "taken over by foreigners" --quite telling of the true motivations behind their violations of EU law. The ECJ ruling alludes to this attitude in its formulation.

Ireland has no basis to complain about immigration of EU citizens, which involves rights for their spouses under a EU treaty which the RoI has signed. It should be mentioned that a very large number of Irish nationals live in other EU countries, and that a vast Irish immigration is present in the US. There is a large number of Irish nationals who are in the US illegally, some of them involved with crime.

Double standards are not acceptable.

Ireland is free to pursue an anti-European closed borders policy, provided that it first exits the European Union.

Regarding fears about fertility rates etc (subtly implied in the article you quoted), it should be pointed out that immigrants to Ireland (most of whom are Eastern European rather than African) have lower fertility rates than the Irish population at large. Ireland had one of the highest fertility rates among "Caucasian" populations for the past 60 years, which explains the vastness of the Irish emigration during that period. Irish families with 5 or more siblings are quite common in the RoI.

astartes
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Post by astartes » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:40 am

The status of EU citizen is one of dignity. We don't want a Europe of serfs.

Good bye until the next ECJ ruling.

By the way, I am white, a national of a founding country of the EU and don't live in Ireland.

ihcarak
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Post by ihcarak » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:45 am




In light of the recent ECJ decision
all application will be reconsidered
and DOJ will be in contact with us in writing with a decision



I GOT THE EMAIL FROM DOJ
I DONT NO HOW LONG TIME MORE WAIT HAVE ANY IDEA?

martind
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Post by martind » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:46 pm

dsab85 wrote:astartes, please do us all a favour and shut up with your crap, and stop spamming the whole Irish board with your nonsense. Complete pain in the back you are... get a life, or at least try to get on with your current one.

And if you don't like it, then leave...but just stop putting up these silly messages. (and btw... no, I am not Irish but one of the previously affected EU citizens)
In all fairness dsab85, I don't know who this guy astartes is but he does seem to have a point. The article he commented on comes across as dearly beloved. Here's from that article:
It is interesting to note that, to illustrate its piece, the BBC shows the hands of a white couple (above), as does the RTE news report embedded by Hibernia girl. Yet, all the appellants were black Africans. Also of interest is that, although this is an EU judgement and applies thus to the UK (and any other member state), the British print media has not reported the story.
http://www.eureferendum.blogspot.com/20 ... -mugs.html

The British media *did* report the story (in particular the BBC). In fact that whole website seems to pander a lot to fears of immigration and does have a neofascist tone.

Just so you don't come back to me with insults, keep in mind I am Irish-American by birth.

MAKUSA
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YOU SPOT ON MATE

Post by MAKUSA » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:51 pm

astartes wrote:
voh7 wrote:Was just given this link by a family member these are not my views just thought it was quite interesting.
http://www.eureferendum.blogspot.com/20 ... -mugs.html
More fascist propaganda from the BNP and its sympathizers.

The majority of rejected spouse residency applications under EU mobility rights involves spouses of non-African nationality-- Eastern European, US, Japanese, Korean. The arguments in the article you quoted are representative of the chauvinism and beloved which informs the attitude of the Irish DoJ towards non-EU spouses. The basic argument brought by them to the ECJ was along the lines of Ireland being "taken over by foreigners" --quite telling of the true motivations behind their violations of EU law. The ECJ ruling alludes to this attitude in its formulation.

Ireland has no basis to complain about immigration of EU citizens, which involves rights for their spouses under a EU treaty which the RoI has signed. It should be mentioned that a very large number of Irish nationals live in other EU countries, and that a vast Irish immigration is present in the US. There is a large number of Irish nationals who are in the US illegally, some of them involved with crime.

Double standards are not acceptable.

Ireland is free to pursue an anti-European closed borders policy, provided that it first exits the European Union.

Regarding fears about fertility rates etc (subtly implied in the article you quoted), it should be pointed out that immigrants to Ireland (most of whom are Eastern European rather than African) have lower fertility rates than the Irish population at large. Ireland had one of the highest fertility rates among "Caucasian" populations for the past 60 years, which explains the vastness of the Irish emigration during that period. Irish families with 5 or more siblings are quite common in the RoI.[/quote

TRUE SAY TRUE SAY, PEOPLE ALWAYS SEEM TO FORGET THAT NO CONDITION IS PERMANENT.. TRUE SAY MY FRIEND.

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