Surinder Singh or Visitor Visa?

Hello,

I (British and Finnish citizen) and my non-EEA spouse are currently living in Finland. We would like to go to the UK on at least 4 different occasions over the next 6 months, for weddings and other events. My husband has never been to the UK and so this is the first time we're applying for his visa/permit.

We are aware of two options: Surinder Singh route for a resident permit, and a multiple-entry visitor visa. I believe we have the 'required documents' for each - we're married, we have rental contracts with both our names on, we're integrated into Finnish life, etc..

Our intention at this point is not to move to the UK as we are both studying in Finland; however, it is something that we might be interested in in the future, and so possible the S Singh resident permit may be extra helpful to apply for pre-Brexit.

We are fairly confused about the pros and cons of each option. As far as I see it, the pros of the S Singh are that it lasts longer, we could live in the UK if we wanted, and it's free to apply for. However, the visitor visa does seem to be a simpler process, and possibly faster to get a positive answer, which would mean we could start booking flights asap. Our first visit is not planned until Easter so we have time for the visitor visa, but there is no indication of how long S Singh generally takes to process given on the website? I'm also unsure whether we are even eligible for the S Singh route if we are not planning to actually move to the UK but just visit.

Any help, personal experiences or advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!!

I've also just come across a "EEA family permit" - is my understanding correct, that since I have a British passport we are not eligible to apply for this? And the S.Singh route essentially helps us get around this?
Thank you very much for any advice, it would be much appreciated!

I'm not sure that the Surinder Singh route is engaged in your case.

The Surinder Singh route requires that an EEA citizen live with their non-EEA family member while they (the EEA citizen) are exercising EU treaty rights, before returning to their country of citizenship. EU Treaty rights can only be exercised in an EEA member-state of which you are not a citizen.

Therefore if you are a dual British-Finnish citizen, you can't exercise treaty rights in either the UK or Finland and therefore the Surinder Singh route does not apply to your spouse.

easterbunny56 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:07 pm

I've also just come across a "EEA family permit" - is my understanding correct, that since I have a British passport we are not eligible to apply for this? And the S.Singh route essentially helps us get around this?
Thank you very much for any advice, it would be much appreciated!

The Surinder Singh route is essentially a set of requirements that treats a British citizen as if they were a non-UK EEA citizen if those requirements are met.

However the forms that are required to be filed (Family Permit, residence Card, etc) are the same for family members of non-UK EEA citizens and British citizens applying under the Surinder Singh route.

As you are a British citizen, a visit visa will be difficult for your spouse, as one of the requirements will be to prove that s/he has such strong links to their country of habitual residence that s/he would leave the UK at the end of the visit visa. As their link to their country of habitual residence (Finland) is through you, that may not be judged a very strong reason to leave the UK at the end of the visit visa and hence the visit visa may be refused.

Thank you very much for such a clear and informative reply. I understand much better now - it hinges on the fact that I'm not exercising my free movement rights since I am in fact entitled to live in Finland. Ie. we'd need to be living in Spain or some third country for this route to apply.

I guess we will have to try for a visitor visa and see what happens. My husband is enrolled in a government-funded course, I'm doing a PhD, and we have a rental contract until January 2022 so I'm hoping that they will deem that enough evidence that we are leaving the country again after the visits. Fingers crossed and thanks again!

easterbunny56 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:41 pm

Thank you very much for such a clear and informative reply.

Thank you for the compliment.

easterbunny56 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:41 pm

I'm not exercising my free movement rights since I am in fact entitled to live in Finland.

Correct. As a Finnish citizen, your right to reside in Finland supersedes your rights under the EU treaties, which is what the Surinder Singh route is based on.

easterbunny56 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:41 pm

I guess we will have to try for a visitor visa and see what happens. My husband is enrolled in a government-funded course, I'm doing a PhD, and we have a rental contract until January 2022 so I'm hoping that they will deem that enough evidence that we are leaving the country again after the visits.

These seem to be reasonably good grounds to prove an intent to return. Be sure to get ample documentation from the university, such as absence limits from the course, etc, (and possibly also proof of loss of deposit from the landlord) to prove that the non-EEA spouse is under a compulsion to return.

As an aside, congratulations on doing your PhD from Finland. Definitely on my list of countries to do a PhD in, if possible, though for entirely esoteric reasons (Finnish PhDs are invested with a hat and sword on successfully completing PhDs, as a symbol that they will defend the truths that they discovered during their PhD). As an aside, is the course (research, viva, etc) conducted (and the thesis to be submitted in) in English, Finnish or another language?

secret.simon wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:13 am

I'm not sure that the Surinder Singh route is engaged in your case.

The Surinder Singh route requires that an EEA citizen live with their non-EEA family member while they (the EEA citizen) are exercising EU treaty rights, before returning to their country of citizenship. EU Treaty rights can only be exercised in an EEA member-state of which you are not a citizen.

Therefore if you are a dual British-Finnish citizen, you can't exercise treaty rights in either the UK or Finland and therefore the Surinder Singh route does not apply to your spouse.

easterbunny56 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:07 pm

I've also just come across a "EEA family permit" - is my understanding correct, that since I have a British passport we are not eligible to apply for this? And the S.Singh route essentially helps us get around this?
Thank you very much for any advice, it would be much appreciated!

The Surinder Singh route is essentially a set of requirements that treats a British citizen as if they were a non-UK EEA citizen if those requirements are met.

However the forms that are required to be filed (Family Permit, residence Card, etc) are the same for family members of non-UK EEA citizens and British citizens applying under the Surinder Singh route.

As you are a British citizen, a visit visa will be difficult for your spouse, as one of the requirements will be to prove that s/he has such strong links to their country of habitual residence that s/he would leave the UK at the end of the visit visa. As their link to their country of habitual residence (Finland) is through you, that may not be judged a very strong reason to leave the UK at the end of the visit visa and hence the visit visa may be refused.

I am not sure you can make this assessment with very limited facts.

You need to establish how this person acquired their British and Finnish nationality, was it naturally at birth, or registration or naturalisation.

If the OP is a naturalised British who obtained that citizenship after residing in the UK as Finnish, then Lounes is applicable and not Surinder Singh.

If OP was naturally born a British and Finn, then Surinder Singh is applicable as the case is not purely internal to the UK, as there is another connection to another memberstate ie, Finland.

Either way, it seems to me, that community law may well be applicable some how. The notion that EU law may not apply to OP in both Finland and UK because she hold British citizen and Finnish nationality, does not seem correct to me.

secret.simon wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:47 pm

As an aside, congratulations on doing your PhD from Finland. Definitely on my list of countries to do a PhD in, if possible, though for entirely esoteric reasons (Finnish PhDs are invested with a hat and sword on successfully completing PhDs, as a symbol that they will defend the truths that they discovered during their PhD). As an aside, is the course (research, viva, etc) conducted (and the thesis to be submitted in) in English, Finnish or another language?

Haha, my husband is also very excited about the sword - I'm more concerned about getting through the 4 years!! But yes, it's all in English. A bunch of masters, and seemingly all PhD's, require English skills - and the courses at PhD level are all in English. I think you can choose to write your thesis in Finnish or Swedish too but most people seem to do all their academic life in English. So if you're thinking about it, I'd highly recommend it. Plus no study fees

Obie wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:10 pm

I am not sure you can make this assessment with very limited facts.

You need to establish how this person acquired their British and Finnish nationality, was it naturally at birth, or registration or naturalisation.

If the OP is a naturalised British who obtained that citizenship after residing in the UK as Finnish, then Lounes is applicable and not Surinder Singh.

If OP was naturally born a British and Finn, then Surinder Singh is applicable as the case is not purely internal to the UK, as there is another connection to another memberstate ie, Finland.

Either way, it seems to me, that community law may well be applicable some how. The notion that EU law may not apply to OP in both Finland and UK because she hold British citizen and Finnish nationality, does not seem correct to me.

I'm born a Finn and Brit due to a parent from each country. From what I've read, it would be very hard to claim that I'm exercising my right to free movement - since I'm in Finland as a Finnish citizen, not as a UK citizen exercising my right to live here. Maybe with a good immigration lawyer etc it would be possible - but right now we just want the easiest way of getting my husband into the UK a couple of times.

From what I'm reading it looks like everything might change with S. Singh post-Brexit, but a visitor visa should stay pretty much the same for the time being. So it seems like it might be the 'safest' choice for now. Thank you for the suggestions!

easterbunny56 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:23 pm

secret.simon wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:47 pm

As an aside, congratulations on doing your PhD from Finland. Definitely on my list of countries to do a PhD in, if possible, though for entirely esoteric reasons (Finnish PhDs are invested with a hat and sword on successfully completing PhDs, as a symbol that they will defend the truths that they discovered during their PhD). As an aside, is the course (research, viva, etc) conducted (and the thesis to be submitted in) in English, Finnish or another language?

Haha, my husband is also very excited about the sword - I'm more concerned about getting through the 4 years!! But yes, it's all in English. A bunch of masters, and seemingly all PhD's, require English skills - and the courses at PhD level are all in English. I think you can choose to write your thesis in Finnish or Swedish too but most people seem to do all their academic life in English. So if you're thinking about it, I'd highly recommend it. Plus no study fees

Thank you for the information.

You did not mention if you have ever lived in UK as a resident in the sense of exercising your treaty rights. If you did then you could treat Finland as a country where you are at present exercising your treaty rights and then qualify to apply under SS for a family permit for 6 months as a British citizen as Finland meets the criteria in the strict sense of definition of EEA state in the reg 2(1).

However if you did not live in UK or any other EEA member state for that matter to activate your treaty rights then McCarthy is relevant and you may not qualify for SS by relying on your dual citizenship.

I might be completely wrong as I am not an immigration expert but it's worth looking into it as the family permit option would be easier and cost less compared to a visitor visa with more requirements.

Mccarthy needs to be clarified.

Mrs Mccarthy failed because she had never lived in Ireland or any other EU state, other than the UK were she was born.

In was her abusive and cynical conduct in only claiming Irish citizenship later in her life for the sole purpose of supporting Mr Mccarthy's application in circumstances where she had never worked in the UK, that led the EU to rule in the way it did.

In the OP's case, the UK cannot say, well we recognise you as a British citizen, and they say you will not qualify under regulation 9, as you hold Finnish nationality. That will be absurd.

She has to either fall under regulation 9 or 9A, any other explanation for refusing to recognise an enforceable EU law right in her case will render EU law inapplicable to her in 2 states, and that will not stand Judicial scrutiny.

I was born and lived in the UK until I was 25, and was then in Colombia for a few years (married while there and lived with husband). Have now been in Finland for 4 months with my husband. Have always had citizenship of both countries but have never lived in Finland before.

To be honest, strict UK visa rules were one of the reasons we decided to move here instead of the UK, and we intend to settle here for at least the next 4 years. It sounds like consulting with an immigration lawyer would be useful at this point, but we also have no desire (or ability) to pay any legal fees at the moment, especially given that we aren't even trying to live in the UK.

There were various interesting references made in previous posts so I will now go away and research a bit more, but thank you again everyone for your comments and help!