(non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

simple_explorer1 · Post by **simple_explorer1** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:35 pm

Hello everyone,

Would be great if anyone can help me with my query as below:

I am a permanent resident of Germany (non EU citizen) and work in software development since 9 years now. I am living in Germany since 4.5 years. Recently I have got job offer from a London based company for a Senior role but if want to accept that then I would need to move to UK on Tier 2 General visa.

The problem is if I leave Germany then my permanent residency would become invalid in 1 year (if I don't live here) and Tier 2 being temporary employer tied visa it will take another 5 years to come to the same status in the UK (ILR) as I am here in Germany right now.

My concerns are as below:
1] As Tier 2 is tied to specific employer, if the job is not what I thought it would be then I would end up being stuck with the employer for foreseeable future.

2] If at a particular time I want to change job then the job selection pool is restricted to only those companies who have license to sponsor that too if they have right opportunity at that time, license available, no local candidate etc. (too many variables in between) so I am not sure how that can be good for career.

3] Worst, if there is a redundancy (for whatever reason) and no new sponsor is found in the limited time before visa curtailment (as per point 2) then the right to live and work in UK would also be lost.

4] Tier 2 employees are ALWAYS dependent on their employer so being stuck with a bad employer can cause a significant impact on health and stress.

5] After Brexit who knows what kind of immigration system would be in place i.e more restrictive or less restrictive

Also, the reasons I was still interested in the UK when this opportunity came are as below:
1] In Germany there are language issues. I am still learning German but with family and job it takes ages to learn so getting anything done (even simpler stuff) is always a challenge.

2] This I am not sure but I feel after Brexit, because UK based companies would no longer have access to EU job market, so many more companies might choose to apply for sponsorship license so job availability might increase (do you think?)

3] May be future points based immigration system after Brexit would open more doors as skilled workers would be needed in higher proportion than they are currently (again speculation based on loss of access to EU?)

So, is leaving Germany PR and moving to Tier 2 General visa for UK worth it?. I know its a personal decision but as I don't live there any insights would help me in making a informed decision.

silverocks · Post by **silverocks** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:14 pm

You have analysed the whole situation yourself. I dont think its wise to depend on others opinion. But if i were you then I wouldn't come to UK atleast until the brexit issue is resolved. However there is always a demand for software developers in the UK and mostly all the developer companies has the license to sponsor.

If you want to change the job or employer, they have to follow the routine of RLMT and COS issues every single time unless you're extending your visa. Also like to remind you about the visa fees in UK is through the sky. Its your call.

simple_explorer1 · Post by **simple_explorer1** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:39 pm

Thanks @silverocks for taking the time to read and reply my post. Really appreciated.

silverocks wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:14 pm
However there is always a demand for software developers in the UK and mostly all the developer companies has the license to sponsor.

As I am working in Germany every now and then I get calls from UK companies/Recruiters for job opportunities (as they don't know whether I am a EU citizen or not) but in my experience of last 4.5 years above 90 percentage of companies in UK who contacted me (almost all from London in particular) said they don't have sponsorship license (I actually cross verified this with the official UK sponsorship list). There were instances where even big companies were not in position to sponsor (may be very less or no license remaining who knows). Also, outside of London hardly any company has the muscle to offer sponsorship (also very poor salaries I must say which is true for many London companies as well.)

So, I agree that UK (like many EU countries) have demand for developers but very small percentage of those companies have sponsorship license or are in a position to offer at any given moment which circles back to the career stagnation point which I made.
Again, You might know the market of UK better but I always felt very small percentage of those companies are available for job search subject to job availability.

silverocks wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:14 pm
If you want to change the job or employer, they have to follow the routine of RLMT and COS issues every single time unless you're extending your visa.

Very true. Its a fresh Tier 2 application for every single job change. At that point the only difference between someone searching a job within UK and outside is that someone residing in UK can attend face 2 face interview if required and he might not be subject to COS monthly quota as it is un-restricted for in-country switch. But apart from that a full RLMT, COS applies.

silverocks wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:14 pm
But if i were you then I wouldn't come to UK atleast until the brexit issue is resolved

As a non EU citizen Brexit does not affect someone like me. I think it can either have no effect or positive impact on job market as more companies might opt for sponsorship license once they loose EU access. Can you elaborate on why you think Brexit is relevant in my case?

simple_explorer1 · Post by **simple_explorer1** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:54 pm

silverocks wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:14 pm
I dont think its wise to depend on others opinion.

Yes I agree but the reason I asked the question on this forum is to check whether the reality (especially after Brexit, calls for points based immigration, relaxing immigration stance from the current gov. etc.) is different than what I heard/read or my concerns are misplaced and the immigration environment of UK is not that harsh or atleast is softening. Any inputs would be much appreciated.

SKJ1984 · Post by **SKJ1984** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:43 pm

Considering that you have PR in Germany. I would not opt for moving to UK. ILR via Tier2 is long process and why do you want to undergo that again.

If you feel you are becoming redundant in Germany and not much roles then consider UK if you are not concerned about loosing your immigration status in Germany.

The people contacted you might be staffing agencies. Mid level IT divisions of many companies do not have sponsorship license. Not that they dont want. But they are already being served by software service vendors from Asian countries.

Product companies do have sponsor licenses.

I would suggest wait till Brexit implementation and see how things go in future before deciding or is there a way to convert that PR into citizenship ?

simple_explorer1 · Post by **simple_explorer1** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:07 pm

Thank you @SKJ1984 for replying.

SKJ1984 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:43 pm
Considering that you have PR in Germany. I would not opt for moving to UK. ILR via Tier2 is long process and why do you want to undergo that again.

Yes 5 years indeed is a long time but my concern is even that is not very assured as there are too many variables in between. Am I right or over analysing?

SKJ1984 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:43 pm
The people contacted you might be staffing agencies. Mid level IT divisions of many companies do not have sponsorship license. Not that they dont want. But they are already being served by software service vendors from Asian countries.

Actually they were all product companies ranging from small to big companies. I never show interest for contract/consultancy roles as those are not allowed on Tier 2 and why would anyone go for temporary employment even if it were allowed on such a restrictive visa.

SKJ1984 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:43 pm
Product companies do have sponsor licenses.

Thanks for sharing this. Although based on my experience a lot of them didn't but the once which had ran out of licenses on few occasions (based on what they mentioned me) and so couldn't sponsor. Especially outside London sponsorship was minimal to non-existent at best. But is this changing?

SKJ1984 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:43 pm
I would suggest wait till Brexit implementation and see how things go in future before deciding or is there a way to convert that PR into citizenship ?

Yes in next 2.5 to 3 years I can apply for citizenship if I can attain German B1 and clear the integration test so in a way that is possible just that it is difficult to learn a language and become conversational in that especially if one is working and have a family.

Also any reason "Brexit" is relevant for my case as I am non EU citizen anyway?

SKJ1984 · Post by **SKJ1984** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:01 pm

You are right about long first for ILR. It's a long thing and has so many variables. No one knows what's in store next 5 years. Retaining IT job for 5 years in UK might or might not be difficult..it depends on how skilled you are.

My Brexit perspective was to see how IT market changes in UK and visa rules amended.

lolo2 · Post by **lolo2** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:36 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:54 pm

3] May be future points based immigration system after Brexit would open more doors as skilled workers would be needed in higher proportion than they are currently (again speculation based on loss of access to EU?)

This can't be predicted at all (opening more doors for non-EU workers) as many things about Brexit aren't clear yet. According to what I have been hearing from previous managers and some events I have attended, companies still would be preferring to sponsor an EU candidate over an overseas one, so that to say there will be more opportunities for skilled candidates like us (non-EU) after Brexit is a mere speculation.

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:39 pm

There were instances where even big companies were not in position to sponsor (may be very less or no license remaining who knows). Also, outside of London hardly any company has the muscle to offer sponsorship (also very poor salaries I must say which is true for many London companies as well.)

It doesn't matter the size or the location of the company to be able to provide sponsorship to a foreign worker, as long as they fill all the requirements to get a license. Personally I know companies with less than 10 employees and some of them are in the UK under a Tier 2 visa.

Big companies usually offer sponsorship to outstanding candidates and in my opinion it's a matter of luck. Positions in such companies are extremely competitive, they receive lots of CV's from highly skilled candidates all the time.

You mention a very important point: salaries. The UK is called a low-wage economy, salaries for the same job are usually lower compared to other developed countries. And London is one of the most expensive cities in the world! Well, you already might know that the whole country is very expensive. I am not sure if you have received any salary proposal yet, but you must consider this very well.

I had a flatmate who did the opposite than you last year. After he finished a PhD in Physics and applied for jobs accross the UK with no success, he found a position in Germany and now he and his wife can't be more happy.

If I was you, I wouldn't do that move. But it's a personal choice!

simple_explorer1 · Post by **simple_explorer1** » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:20 pm

lolo2 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:36 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:54 pm

3] May be future points based immigration system after Brexit would open more doors as skilled workers would be needed in higher proportion than they are currently (again speculation based on loss of access to EU?)

This can't be predicted at all (opening more doors for non-EU workers) as many things about Brexit aren't clear yet. According to what I have been hearing from previous managers and some events I have attended, companies still would be preferring to sponsor an EU candidate over an overseas one, so that to say there will be more opportunities for skilled candidates like us (non-EU) after Brexit is a mere speculation.

Thanks for sharing this.

lolo2 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:36 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:39 pm

There were instances where even big companies were not in position to sponsor (may be very less or no license remaining who knows). Also, outside of London hardly any company has the muscle to offer sponsorship (also very poor salaries I must say which is true for many London companies as well.)

It doesn't matter the size or the location of the company to be able to provide sponsorship to a foreign worker, as long as they fill all the requirements to get a license. Personally I know companies with less than 10 employees and some of them are in the UK under a Tier 2 visa.

Big companies usually offer sponsorship to outstanding candidates and in my opinion it's a matter of luck. Positions in such companies are extremely competitive, they receive lots of CV's from highly skilled candidates all the time.

Yes the size of company does not matter. I was saying that proportionally companies who have sponsorship licence for UK are much less than the ones who don't have and that comparatively bigger companies might have sponsorship license compared to smaller ones (as they might want to cut down cost as much as possible). Moreover, outside London number of companies registered as sponsor on UK gov. website are so much lower. So when people say UK has lot of jobs in IT may be true only for residents there but for Tier 2 visa holder the job selection pool is very limited. Also as one Tier 2 license can only be assigned to one Tier 2 visa holder (COS), a lot of companies may not have many/any remaining license at all thus skewing the job options further. So Tier 2 visa holders at any given time might have very limited options for job selection, fierce competition for those limited positions, willingness of companies to sponsor subject to license availability etc. so how this can be good for career if one can only access a very small percentage of labour market. Am I right in accessing this situation?

This is in stark contrast to Germany where there is no concept of sponsorship and license. So anyone with a who has a job offer above a certain salary threshold (for STEM it is fairly achievable) will get a work visa or will be able to change jobs on a whim without much bureaucracy which is ironic because Germany is known for over bureaucracy. So everyone with a work visa has access to entire labour market (within his profession) so job security (which also is outstanding after probation period) is less of a concern. Moreover if anyone loses his/her job on work visa then they get 3 months of job search time with an option to extend it to 6 months as well. Germany also does not differentiate between residents and work visa holders and EVERYONE has access to entire government funds. So say if anyone is registered as unemployed then they get 60 percent of last withdrawn salary (provided they worked for atleast 1 year) till the time they get new job for 1 year and after that subsidised housing if still no job. For work visa holders it is 3 months of payment as unemployment benefit till the time they get new job. So one gets to access all the benefits paid as tax even on temporary visa which is a significant help in needy situations.

lolo2 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:36 pm
You mention a very important point: salaries. The UK is called a low-wage economy, salaries for the same job are usually lower compared to other developed countries. And London is one of the most expensive cities in the world! Well, you already might know that the whole country is very expensive. I am not sure if you have received any salary proposal yet, but you must consider this very well.

I had a flatmate who did the opposite than you last year. After he finished a PhD in Physics and applied for jobs accross the UK with no success, he found a position in Germany and now he and his wife can't be more happy.

If I was you, I wouldn't do that move. But it's a personal choice!

Thanks for the insights. It really is a bummer that in UK the environment for immigrants is quite hostile whereas in Germany its the language. Both are dealbreaker and quite a bummer.

lolo2 · Post by **lolo2** » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:38 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:20 pm

Yes the size of company does not matter. I was saying that proportionally companies who have sponsorship licence for UK are much less than the ones who don't have and that comparatively bigger companies might have sponsorship license compared to smaller ones (as they might want to cut down cost as much as possible). Moreover, outside London number of companies registered as sponsor on UK gov. website are so much lower. So when people say UK has lot of jobs in IT may be true only for residents there but for Tier 2 visa holder the job selection pool is very limited. Also as one Tier 2 license can only be assigned to one Tier 2 visa holder (COS), a lot of companies may not have many/any remaining license at all thus skewing the job options further. So Tier 2 visa holders at any given time might have very limited options for job selection, fierce competition for those limited positions, willingness of companies to sponsor subject to license availability etc. so how this can be good for career if one can only access a very small percentage of labour market. Am I right in accessing this situation?

You are pointing out some things here:

- The "Tier 2 Register of Sponsors" is a good guide to see if a company has a licence or not, but sometimes you can find companies which are not there and they still are able to provide sponsorship, and viceversa.
- Yes, companies have a sponsorship (CoS) quota every year based on their specific situation.
- If you are in this country under a Tier 2 visa you can work for that company only. If you change your employer, you must apply for a new visa before starting your new role.
- I have been told from some companies (of different sizes) that they don't want to provide a CoS for a foreign candidate because they don't want to pay the fees or to wait for the process. This can last weeks or even months, depending on the UK Home Office.

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:20 pm

This is in stark contrast to Germany where there is no concept of sponsorship and license. So anyone with a who has a job offer above a certain salary threshold (for STEM it is fairly achievable) will get a work visa or will be able to change jobs on a whim without much bureaucracy which is ironic because Germany is known for over bureaucracy. So everyone with a work visa has access to entire labour market (within his profession) so job security (which also is outstanding after probation period) is less of a concern. Moreover if anyone loses his/her job on work visa then they get 3 months of job search time with an option to extend it to 6 months as well. Germany also does not differentiate between residents and work visa holders and EVERYONE has access to entire government funds. So say if anyone is registered as unemployed then they get 60 percent of last withdrawn salary (provided they worked for atleast 1 year) till the time they get new job for 1 year and after that subsidised housing if still no job. For work visa holders it is 3 months of payment as unemployment benefit till the time they get new job. So one gets to access all the benefits paid as tax even on temporary visa which is a significant help in needy situations.

Well, your statement supports all the insights you have received in this post. There is no way you would receive such benefits in the UK, as they are not available for Tier 2 visa holders.

If you lose your job, you don't have access to any kind of aid. You have to deal with that with savings (if any), family or friends support. I can relate to this because I have been under these circumstances in the last months.

Here is my post: uk-tier-2-employer-sponsored-visas/made ... 91207.html

Fortunately I received an offer a few days ago (after more than 5 months of being unemployed) and now I am waiting for a new visa.

Hope this helps!

simple_explorer1 · Post by **simple_explorer1** » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:10 pm

lolo2 wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:38 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:20 pm

This is in stark contrast to Germany where there is no concept of sponsorship and license. So anyone with a who has a job offer above a certain salary threshold (for STEM it is fairly achievable) will get a work visa or will be able to change jobs on a whim without much bureaucracy which is ironic because Germany is known for over bureaucracy. So everyone with a work visa has access to entire labour market (within his profession) so job security (which also is outstanding after probation period) is less of a concern. Moreover if anyone loses his/her job on work visa then they get 3 months of job search time with an option to extend it to 6 months as well. Germany also does not differentiate between residents and work visa holders and EVERYONE has access to entire government funds. So say if anyone is registered as unemployed then they get 60 percent of last withdrawn salary (provided they worked for atleast 1 year) till the time they get new job for 1 year and after that subsidised housing if still no job. For work visa holders it is 3 months of payment as unemployment benefit till the time they get new job. So one gets to access all the benefits paid as tax even on temporary visa which is a significant help in needy situations.

Well, your statement supports all the insights you have received in this post. There is no way you would receive such benefits in the UK, as they are not available for Tier 2 visa holders.

If you lose your job, you don't have access to any kind of aid. You have to deal with that with savings (if any), family or friends support.

Thanks for replying.
I already know that on Tier 2 such high level stuff (such as government aid/job search support) are not possible and is no match to support one can get Germany (I was just comparing the stark difference between UK and DE for temporary work visa holders). It is called hostile atmosphere for immigrants in UK for a reason

.
In-fact I was less concerned about supporting oneself financially but more about being able to find a sponsored job in the available time as that will decide whether some can continue to reside in UK or not.

lolo2 wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:38 pm
I can relate to this because I have been under these circumstances in the last months.

Here is my post: uk-tier-2-employer-sponsored-visas/made ... 91207.html

Fortunately I received an offer a few days ago (after more than 5 months of being unemployed) and now I am waiting for a new visa.

Hope this helps!

Sorry to hear about your ordeal and congrats that you were able to overcome it. So if I may ask how was you experience finding new Tier 2 sponsor after job loss as in was it very difficult, were you able to get many interview calls from companies who had the Tier 2 license and it was just a matter you being able to clear the interviews, how is the UK job market in IT for senior devs (myself 9 years exp.) who in future may want to change employer or happen to fall in the situation as you did, how is HO to deal with, is redundancy/dismissal quite common in UK and any other insights you think could help me make an informed decision.

Sorry for asking many questions. As a PR holder of Germany and also having worked on a temporary work visa before that things like job loss, not able to find new jobs after job loss were never much of a concern in Germany so I just want to know if I were to accept this job offer from London (and also accept the uncertainties that may come along) and move on Tier 2 visa in UK (because its an english speaking country) can I atleast expect that getting new sponsored jobs when time warrants in dire situation is possible especially after Brexit and companies may not have access to EU? Is it worth it? (I would like to point out that I am also struggling here because of the German language and all the problem it brings in daily lives)

It really is a choice between ease of daily lives in UK (due to language) but uncertainties in residency as job are fragile vs a guaranteed residency in Germany (and EU access) but with a real language problem and all the problems it brings in daily lives. Hope to hear

lolo2 · Post by **lolo2** » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:03 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:10 pm

In-fact I was less concerned about supporting oneself financially but more about being able to find a sponsored job in the available time as that will decide whether some can continue to reside in UK or not.

According to the HO, when you lose your job, you will receive a curtailment of leave on your Tier 2 Visa. This will shorten your leave to be in the UK to 60 days or until the end of your visa, whichever is shortest. In my case, I never received that letter of curtailment after more than 5 months since I was made redundant. Sometimes people receive the letter shortly after leaving their jobs.

Everyone is different, some find another job quicker than others. I think that the situation has been more difficult than usual in the last year due to uncertainty about Brexit and general elections on December. Hope everything starts to be less uncertain this year.

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:10 pm

Sorry to hear about your ordeal and congrats that you were able to overcome it. So if I may ask how was you experience finding new Tier 2 sponsor after job loss as in was it very difficult, were you able to get many interview calls from companies who had the Tier 2 license and it was just a matter you being able to clear the interviews, how is the UK job market in IT for senior devs (myself 9 years exp.) who in future may want to change employer or happen to fall in the situation as you did, how is HO to deal with, is redundancy/dismissal quite common in UK and any other insights you think could help me make an informed decision.

I will try to answer all your questions:

- I started applying for jobs even before I received the redundancy letter. I got many calls/emails at the beginning, but there was a point where didn't get any in days or even weeks. For the records, I sent more than 200 applications in about 6 months.

- I got some phone and face to face interviews along this time, don't remember how many. I also received good feedbacks from them, but the common response was related to my visa situation. In my case, I put this information on the header of my CV (Tier 2 visa holder) since the beginning.

- IT professionals appear on the shortage occupation list (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration ... ation-list), so it would be easy to find a job in the sector. I am not an IT person, but my occupation is on that list as well. However, it was very difficult for me to get an offer.

- The HO will be dealing with the curtailment of your previous visa and the renewal of the new one after you find a new position. They do not have anything to do while you are unemployed or the reason why you lost your job (unless it is an unlawful practice).

- I can't say too much about how common is redundancy / dismissal in the UK. I have been in this country for a couple of years so far. However, I have heard from British colleagues that this has been more common in recent months/years. It can happen in any sector or company with no previous notice.

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:10 pm

Sorry for asking many questions. As a PR holder of Germany and also having worked on a temporary work visa before that things like job loss, not able to find new jobs after job loss were never much of a concern in Germany so I just want to know if I were to accept this job offer from London (and also accept the uncertainties that may come along) and move on Tier 2 visa in UK (because its an english speaking country) can I atleast expect that getting new sponsored jobs when time warrants in dire situation is possible especially after Brexit and companies may not have access to EU? Is it worth it? (I would like to point out that I am also struggling here because of the German language and all the problem it brings in daily lives)

It really is a choice between ease of daily lives in UK (due to language) but uncertainties in residency as job are fragile vs a guaranteed residency in Germany (and EU access) but with a real language problem and all the problems it brings in daily lives. Hope to hear

Again, I know that many people are saying that non-EU candidates will have more opportunities after Brexit due to a more restricted access to the EU, but that is pure speculation. It is still not clear how will be the hiring process of EU candidates after Brexit's completion. They still don't require a visa to work in the UK. A common opinion is that they will have an ease process than us, whatever is the final deal.

Personally I would see learning German as an asset instead of a barrier. That also will help you to get access to better jobs. I wouldn't quit a job for this reason, unless I don't feel happy or comfortable doing what I do or being where I am.

Cheers

JohndoesUK · Post by **JohndoesUK** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:01 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:07 pm
Yes in next 2.5 to 3 years I can apply for citizenship if I can attain German B1 and clear the integration test so in a way that is possible just that it is difficult to learn a language and become conversational in that especially if one is working and have a family.

Also any reason "Brexit" is relevant for my case as I am non EU citizen anyway?

In my opinion it's not worth the move at this point in time as you already have German PR and are already so close to German Citizenship. If you have a typical family size of say four people the cost of a 5 year Tier 2 general for you and your dependents will run to £12800 by my calculation. After the 5 years the ILR and the citizenship applications will cost another £14300 on top of that. This grand total fee of over £27K has been calculated on current prices and thus assumes all fees and surcharges (like the IHS surcharge) do not change. It's a large amount of money to spend and only really worth it if you feel your long term earnings and quality of life in the UK will far exceed your long term earnings in Germany.

Also if by chance the transition period gets extended by a period longer than 18 months or so you will be able to come to the UK a bit easier as you will have German citizenship by then. Obviously you can't count on this happening by any means, but personally if I was in your situation I wouldn't invest tens of thousands of pounds facilitating a move I could possibly do for free in 2.5 years. Especially since there is no need to rush as there is no indication that the immigration scheme that will be implemented for non-UK nationals post-Brexit will be much much tougher than the Tier 2 system that is currently in operation.

simple_explorer1 · Post by **simple_explorer1** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:56 pm

Thanks for commenting.

JohndoesUK wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:01 pm
if you feel your long term earnings and quality of life in the UK will far exceed your long term earnings in Germany.

Well the quality of life will always be higher in places where you speak the language and can integrate in the society so UK would rank higher in this case (just for the language)

As far as earning potential is concerned its about the same in UK and Germany. May be in Germany the savings are higher because the cost of living is much reasonable compared to London and also because I (or anyone even on work visa) can access the full job market in Germany the question is always about "can I get that cool job" instead of "Does that company have the sponsorship license" which is the case of UK as Tier 2 holders are completely tied to their employer with no freedom at all. Also the possibility to leave bad employer on the whim and look for a better jobs (even without a job lined up) is easily possible in Germany which is NOT POSSIBLE in UK as you right to residence in UK depends on it so this one goes to Germany.

So, in a way I do have a good grasp about the salary and quality of life in UK compared to Germany. My concern is whether the route from Tier 2 to ILR is smooth in the hostile immigration space in UK or things are not at all that serious as I have heard and people on Tier 2 will easily reach ILR (most of the time) without much hassles.

Though practically I just have 2.5 years to go and it will give me complete access to EU which in itself is a massive advantage but if I were to let go this and move to UK on Tier 2 atleast I need to know whether reaching ILR is very difficult or not that much difficult.

Hope to hear. Cheers.

CR001 · Post by **CR001** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:01 pm

move to UK on Tier 2 atleast I need to know whether reaching ILR is very difficult or not that much difficult.

It is not difficult to obtain ILR on tier 2, provided you meet the requirements, which really are minimal (still employed and for 'foreseeable future', salary, absence limits, Life in the UK test, English requirement if applicable).

simple_explorer1 · Post by **simple_explorer1** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:08 pm

CR001 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:01 pm

move to UK on Tier 2 atleast I need to know whether reaching ILR is very difficult or not that much difficult.
It is not difficult to obtain ILR on tier 2, provided you meet the requirements, which really are minimal (still employed and for 'foreseeable future', salary, absence limits, Life in the UK test, English requirement if applicable).

Thanks for taking time to respond. Actually I was asking more about the 5 years journey from restrictive Tier 2 to ILR and not about the paperwork required for ILR.

Do most of the people who have Tier 2 visa transition 5 years period and make it to a qualifying ILR status or the journey is difficult due to redundancies (saw many questions about that on this forum), job not suitable (and unable to find new Tier 2 sponsor and so moved somewhere else outside UK), restricted life on T2 visa etc.

CR001 · Post by **CR001** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:12 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:08 pm

CR001 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:01 pm

move to UK on Tier 2 atleast I need to know whether reaching ILR is very difficult or not that much difficult.
It is not difficult to obtain ILR on tier 2, provided you meet the requirements, which really are minimal (still employed and for 'foreseeable future', salary, absence limits, Life in the UK test, English requirement if applicable).
Thanks for taking time to respond. Actually I was asking more about the 5 years journey from restrictive Tier 2 to ILR and not about the paperwork required for ILR.

Do most of the people who have Tier 2 visa transition 5 years period and make it to a qualifying ILR status or the journey is difficult due to redundancies (saw many questions about that on this forum), job not suitable (and unable to find new Tier 2 sponsor and so moved somewhere else outside UK), restricted life on T2 visa etc.

The majority of members who post make it to ILR without any issues, regardless of whether they change jobs and sponsors.

simple_explorer1 · Post by **simple_explorer1** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:22 pm

CR001 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:12 pm
The majority of members who post make it to ILR without any issues, regardless of whether they change jobs and sponsors.

Thanks for sharing the insights.

simple_explorer1 · Post by **simple_explorer1** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:33 pm

lolo2 wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:03 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:10 pm

In-fact I was less concerned about supporting oneself financially but more about being able to find a sponsored job in the available time as that will decide whether some can continue to reside in UK or not.

According to the HO, when you lose your job, you will receive a curtailment of leave on your Tier 2 Visa. This will shorten your leave to be in the UK to 60 days or until the end of your visa, whichever is shortest. In my case, I never received that letter of curtailment after more than 5 months since I was made redundant. Sometimes people receive the letter shortly after leaving their jobs.

Everyone is different, some find another job quicker than others. I think that the situation has been more difficult than usual in the last year due to uncertainty about Brexit and general elections on December. Hope everything starts to be less uncertain this year.

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:10 pm

Sorry to hear about your ordeal and congrats that you were able to overcome it. So if I may ask how was you experience finding new Tier 2 sponsor after job loss as in was it very difficult, were you able to get many interview calls from companies who had the Tier 2 license and it was just a matter you being able to clear the interviews, how is the UK job market in IT for senior devs (myself 9 years exp.) who in future may want to change employer or happen to fall in the situation as you did, how is HO to deal with, is redundancy/dismissal quite common in UK and any other insights you think could help me make an informed decision.

I will try to answer all your questions:

- I started applying for jobs even before I received the redundancy letter. I got many calls/emails at the beginning, but there was a point where didn't get any in days or even weeks. For the records, I sent more than 200 applications in about 6 months.

- I got some phone and face to face interviews along this time, don't remember how many. I also received good feedbacks from them, but the common response was related to my visa situation. In my case, I put this information on the header of my CV (Tier 2 visa holder) since the beginning.

- IT professionals appear on the shortage occupation list (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration ... ation-list), so it would be easy to find a job in the sector. I am not an IT person, but my occupation is on that list as well. However, it was very difficult for me to get an offer.

- The HO will be dealing with the curtailment of your previous visa and the renewal of the new one after you find a new position. They do not have anything to do while you are unemployed or the reason why you lost your job (unless it is an unlawful practice).

- I can't say too much about how common is redundancy / dismissal in the UK. I have been in this country for a couple of years so far. However, I have heard from British colleagues that this has been more common in recent months/years. It can happen in any sector or company with no previous notice.

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:10 pm

Sorry for asking many questions. As a PR holder of Germany and also having worked on a temporary work visa before that things like job loss, not able to find new jobs after job loss were never much of a concern in Germany so I just want to know if I were to accept this job offer from London (and also accept the uncertainties that may come along) and move on Tier 2 visa in UK (because its an english speaking country) can I atleast expect that getting new sponsored jobs when time warrants in dire situation is possible especially after Brexit and companies may not have access to EU? Is it worth it? (I would like to point out that I am also struggling here because of the German language and all the problem it brings in daily lives)

It really is a choice between ease of daily lives in UK (due to language) but uncertainties in residency as job are fragile vs a guaranteed residency in Germany (and EU access) but with a real language problem and all the problems it brings in daily lives. Hope to hear

Again, I know that many people are saying that non-EU candidates will have more opportunities after Brexit due to a more restricted access to the EU, but that is pure speculation. It is still not clear how will be the hiring process of EU candidates after Brexit's completion. They still don't require a visa to work in the UK. A common opinion is that they will have an ease process than us, whatever is the final deal.

Personally I would see learning German as an asset instead of a barrier. That also will help you to get access to better jobs. I wouldn't quit a job for this reason, unless I don't feel happy or comfortable doing what I do or being where I am.

Cheers

Thanks for sharing the journey. It is very helpful to get practical insights.
Well it clearly seems very stressful especially 5 months of struggle is a lot (it could have taken any time because of the limitation of providing COS and capability/willingness).

Also based on what you are saying looks very edgy if some people get curtailment letter earlier than other it literally is luck. Also you say "IT professionals appear on the shortage occupation list" but honestly out of all the product companies I have been in touch with in last 4.5 years hardly 5 percentage has license for sponsorship (or were willing to sponsor on Tier 2 as it is too much of hassle to them as you also said) so although it really differs from case to case but in general someone in IT could also struggle in this situation even if people say IT sector have more job (which might be true) because if we count how many of those jobs can sponsor then the number of opportunities will be significantly lower and take away advantage of bigger IT job market in UK is something I have felt.

lolo2 · Post by **lolo2** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:51 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:33 pm

Also based on what you are saying looks very edgy if some people get curtailment letter earlier than other it literally is luck. Also you say "IT professionals appear on the shortage occupation list" but honestly out of all the product companies I have been in touch with in last 4.5 years hardly 5 percentage has license for sponsorship (or were willing to sponsor on Tier 2 as it is too much of hassle to them as you also said) so although it really differs from case to case but in general someone in IT could also struggle in this situation even if people say IT sector have more job (which might be true) because if we count how many of those jobs can sponsor then the number of opportunities will be significantly lower and take away advantage of bigger IT job market in UK is something I have felt.

It seems that you have been assessing the UK market for a few years then.

And yes, it's a matter of luck. At the end, our experience/qualifications do not matter if a sponsor is not willing to do the process for any reason.

Another thing I perceived during my journey was that some hiring managers or companies tend to hire candidates with certain nationalities. Which is unfair and could even be illegal (a form of nepotism), but I am not in a position to change or fix this. It's a job of the Home Office to investigate this further.

Regarding the IT market, it certainly is one of the most important and fastest growing field right now, but it also has more qualified candidates. When I studied my Masters, we were 10 students in my class (Energy Engineering), while in the Computer Science programme, there were more than 300 postgraduate students so I'm sure the competition is extremely high.

MarbleMarch · Post by **MarbleMarch** » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:27 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:56 pm

Well the quality of life will always be higher in places where you speak the language and can integrate in the society so UK would rank higher in this case (just for the language)

Hello simple_explorer1, my advice is to get the German citizenship then consider moving to Ireland where you won't have any language issues. I think taking a risk by moving to the UK and, if things don't work out, getting stuck in a stressful job or being exploited by an employer who knows you don't have other options, can take its toll on you and your family.

Where abouts in Germany are you? I'm considering moving from Canada to Europe...

simple_explorer1 · Post by **simple_explorer1** » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:11 pm

MarbleMarch wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:27 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:56 pm

Well the quality of life will always be higher in places where you speak the language and can integrate in the society so UK would rank higher in this case (just for the language)

Hello simple_explorer1, my advice is to get the German citizenship then consider moving to Ireland where you won't have any language issues. I think taking a risk by moving to the UK and, if things don't work out, getting stuck in a stressful job or being exploited by an employer who knows you don't have other options, can take its toll on you and your family.

Where abouts in Germany are you? I'm considering moving from Canada to Europe...

Thanks for replying. Yeah being stuck with the employer and fully depending on them for residence status is tricky as is. I am based in Berlin. Where are you planning to move?

simple_explorer1 · Post by **simple_explorer1** » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:15 pm

lolo2 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:51 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:33 pm

Also based on what you are saying looks very edgy if some people get curtailment letter earlier than other it literally is luck. Also you say "IT professionals appear on the shortage occupation list" but honestly out of all the product companies I have been in touch with in last 4.5 years hardly 5 percentage has license for sponsorship (or were willing to sponsor on Tier 2 as it is too much of hassle to them as you also said) so although it really differs from case to case but in general someone in IT could also struggle in this situation even if people say IT sector have more job (which might be true) because if we count how many of those jobs can sponsor then the number of opportunities will be significantly lower and take away advantage of bigger IT job market in UK is something I have felt.

It seems that you have been assessing the UK market for a few years then.

And yes, it's a matter of luck. At the end, our experience/qualifications do not matter if a sponsor is not willing to do the process for any reason.

Another thing I perceived during my journey was that some hiring managers or companies tend to hire candidates with certain nationalities. Which is unfair and could even be illegal (a form of nepotism), but I am not in a position to change or fix this. It's a job of the Home Office to investigate this further.

Regarding the IT market, it certainly is one of the most important and fastest growing field right now, but it also has more qualified candidates. When I studied my Masters, we were 10 students in my class (Energy Engineering), while in the Computer Science programme, there were more than 300 postgraduate students so I'm sure the competition is extremely high.

Yes the competition is extremely high for those limited positions available for sponsorships. Also as you said luck and willingness of the companies.

MarbleMarch · Post by **MarbleMarch** » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:48 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:11 pm
Thanks for replying. Yeah being stuck with the employer and fully depending on them for residence status is tricky as is. I am based in Berlin. Where are you planning to move?

My first choice is the UK because of the language. But I also speak French so I'm considering France and Belgium as well.

simple_explorer1 · Post by **simple_explorer1** » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:08 am

MarbleMarch wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:48 pm

simple_explorer1 wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:11 pm
Thanks for replying. Yeah being stuck with the employer and fully depending on them for residence status is tricky as is. I am based in Berlin. Where are you planning to move?
My first choice is the UK because of the language. But I also speak French so I'm considering France and Belgium as well.

Cool. You can take a lot of risk as you have a safe fallback even though you would also work on Tier 2. I definitely don't have that safe fallback so its always a full risk if I choose that path. Do you already have a job or are planning to apply for jobs in UK?

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Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?

Re: (non EU) Germany to UK on Tier 2 worth it?