Irish Descent/Associations via Naturalization?

blm · Post by **blm** » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:29 pm

I am curious if I have a claim for citizenship. Hoping for some advice…

Great-great grandfather: Born in Ireland 1897
Great grandmother: Born in Ireland 1920
Grandmother: Born in USA 1938 (Irish citizen, not FBR)
Mother: Born in USA 1960 (Registered FBR, but after I was born)

I have all the documentation needed to prove my Irish heritage (i.e., birth certificates, marriage records, FBR certificate, etc.) However, I do not and have not ever lived in Ireland therefore; I do not meet any of the residency requirements. I noticed under applying for Citizenship by Naturalization, there is a section that states:

“In some circumstances, the Minister for Justice and Equality may approve an application for citizenship, even if all the above conditions are not met, for someone who:
• Is of Irish descent or has Irish associations”

I am wondering if anyone has an idea of how often this happens? Has anyone taken this route and obtained their citizenship? Or does anyone have any advice or other options they suggest?

Thank you!

littlerr · Post by **littlerr** » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:33 am

Grammar: "All the above conditions are not met" means "some conditions are met and some are not". It does NOT mean "none of the above conditions is met". It's a formal way of expressing partial negation in British English. It appears that, to you, none of the above conditions is met.

Coming back to your original question, as a US citizen, you MUST be residing in Ireland for at least 5 years with an eligible work/spouse/residing visa. As you are of Irish associations, the minister may waive 2 of the 5 years' residence requirement. You still have to live here for 3 full years.

DanaMarie · Post by **DanaMarie** » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:57 am

You may be able to apply for citizenship by descent, right? I can't say for sure with the information you provided because it depends on when your mother was registered and when you were born. Have you used the checker here to see? http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/ci ... th-descent

"To become an Irish citizen, your great-grandparent's grandchild (ie your parent) who is of Irish descent must have registered in the Foreign Births Register between the years 1956 and 1986, or if you were born after 1986 they registered before you were born."

PasadenaTom · Post by **PasadenaTom** » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:57 pm

The relevant section of the law states:

16.—The Minister may, if he thinks fit, grant an application for a certificate of naturalisation in the following cases, although the conditions for naturalisation (or any of them) are not complied with:

(a) where the applicant is of Irish descent or Irish associations;
... (There are other conditions specified that I don't think apply here).

In the margin of that text it says

"Power to dispense with conditions of naturalisation in certain cases."

It appears to me that the minister has been given discretion under the law to waive all of the conditions of naturalisation if he sees fit, as long as some other conditions (like Irish associations) are met. What that means in practice for the average person with Irish associations, I don't know. Will the minister use this provision freely for most applicants with Irish associations? Or will it in practice be reserved for limited cases? I don't know. I suppose if you were a football player or other celebrity, or have performed a valuable service for the state, your chances would be greater. And it probably would help if you showed an intent to live in Ireland. But those are just my opinions.

You can always apply with a statement that you would like the conditions waived, provide your documents showing Irish association, and see what happens. It would cost €175 to apply, which is less than the fee for the Foreign Birth Registration applications. But keep in mind that this is different than Foreign Birth Registration. You would be applying to become a naturalised citizen. In the event you were approved, you would probably need to pay the €950 certification fee required and attend a naturalisation ceremony. So it's not too expensive to apply. But to complete the process will be a lot more.

I too am curious if anyone has been successful taking this approach. I've had my FBR for a year. That means my children (who are in their 20s) are not eligible for FBR. So if they were interested in citizenship, this would be their potential route to it.

Andy02 · Post by **Andy02** » Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:31 pm

I am also curious about this and wonder if there is any data on the number of applications each year including how many were approved or rejected.

markem · Post by **markem** » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:12 pm

Andy02 wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:31 pm
I am also curious about this and wonder if there is any data on the number of applications each year including how many were approved or rejected.

I think this is the most recent data on refused applications:
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/qu ... 06-20/718/

Andy02 · Post by **Andy02** » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:50 am

Thanks for the link.

It was quite interesting and I was surprised at the low numbers of refused applications.

blm · Post by **blm** » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:15 pm

DanaMarie wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:57 am
You may be able to apply for citizenship by descent, right? I can't say for sure with the information you provided because it depends on when your mother was registered and when you were born. Have you used the checker here to see? http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/ci ... th-descent

"To become an Irish citizen, your great-grandparent's grandchild (ie your parent) who is of Irish descent must have registered in the Foreign Births Register between the years 1956 and 1986, or if you were born after 1986 they registered before you were born."

Thanks for the reply! I have used the checker and it states that I'm entitled to Irish citizenship but my parent(s) needed to register on the FBR before my birth. My mother registered for the FBR in the early 2000's after my birth in 1985. Since I can not register via FBR but can show descent/associations for multiple generations, I figured maybe I'd have a shot with naturalization.

blm · Post by **blm** » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:35 pm

PasadenaTom wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:57 pm
The relevant section of the law states:

16.—The Minister may, if he thinks fit, grant an application for a certificate of naturalisation in the following cases, although the conditions for naturalisation (or any of them) are not complied with:

(a) where the applicant is of Irish descent or Irish associations;
... (There are other conditions specified that I don't think apply here).

In the margin of that text it says

"Power to dispense with conditions of naturalisation in certain cases."

It appears to me that the minister has been given discretion under the law to waive all of the conditions of naturalisation if he sees fit, as long as some other conditions (like Irish associations) are met. What that means in practice for the average person with Irish associations, I don't know. Will the minister use this provision freely for most applicants with Irish associations? Or will it in practice be reserved for limited cases? I don't know. I suppose if you were a football player or other celebrity, or have performed a valuable service for the state, your chances would be greater. And it probably would help if you showed an intent to live in Ireland. But those are just my opinions.

You can always apply with a statement that you would like the conditions waived, provide your documents showing Irish association, and see what happens. It would cost €175 to apply, which is less than the fee for the Foreign Birth Registration applications. But keep in mind that this is different than Foreign Birth Registration. You would be applying to become a naturalised citizen. In the event you were approved, you would probably need to pay the €950 certification fee required and attend a naturalisation ceremony. So it's not too expensive to apply. But to complete the process will be a lot more.

I too am curious if anyone has been successful taking this approach. I've had my FBR for a year. That means my children (who are in their 20s) are not eligible for FBR. So if they were interested in citizenship, this would be their potential route to it.

Thanks for the reply, PasadenaTom! I'll be honest, I was hoping you'd chime in on this one...

I'm going to give it a shot and see what happens. I have all the documents and its worth it in my opinion to try. Although it will end up being more costly if approved, it will be worth it to be a citizen.

My mother (Irish citizen) wants to move to Ireland permanently but doesn't want to do so alone. I'd love to join her, however; as a US citizen who can only stay for 90 days, it's very difficult.

PasadenaTom · Post by **PasadenaTom** » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:51 pm

I (and probably a lot of others) would love to know if you are successful. Please let us know how it turns out. Good luck!

nukes · Post by **nukes** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:49 am

Yes, yes, yes. Please keep us informed.

handoubleu · Post by **handoubleu** » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:06 am

I applied under these exact same circumstances November 2019 - great grandmother was born galway, my grandmother received her citizenship under a different law, and then my mother received hers under FRB but filed after I was born. I was wondering if you heard anything for your application?

ashconnor · Post by **ashconnor** » Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:59 am

Just registering my interest on this thread. My dad got his citizenship via FBR this year and I am wondering if the Minister ever waives more than 2 out of the 5 years residency.

I plan on taking residency soon as a UK citizen and I'm wondering what documents I need as I won't have passport stamps to use as evidence of residency.

blm · Post by **blm** » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:48 pm

handoubleu wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:06 am
I applied under these exact same circumstances November 2019 - great grandmother was born galway, my grandmother received her citizenship under a different law, and then my mother received hers under FRB but filed after I was born. I was wondering if you heard anything for your application?

Sorry, I have not heard anything new about my case. COVID isn't helping. Have you heard anything regarding your case?

handoubleu · Post by **handoubleu** » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:42 am

blm wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:48 pm

handoubleu wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:06 am
I applied under these exact same circumstances November 2019 - great grandmother was born galway, my grandmother received her citizenship under a different law, and then my mother received hers under FRB but filed after I was born. I was wondering if you heard anything for your application?
Sorry, I have not heard anything new about my case. COVID isn't helping. Have you heard anything regarding your case?

Rats. I was hoping you might been approved since you applied before me, and I saw that some people who had applied in the summer and autumn of 2019 were invited to the March ceremony. I should note that, although I applied this route, I have now been living in Ireland for over a little over a year. I received a letter in mid-March stating they were processing my application based on my Irish Associations, but I haven't heard anything since then. I saw they were working from home during covid lockdown, and I saw a very old post of a guy who applied this way after residing in Ireland after only two years, so I try to be optimistic!

blm · Post by **blm** » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:20 pm

handoubleu wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:42 am

blm wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:48 pm

handoubleu wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:06 am
I applied under these exact same circumstances November 2019 - great grandmother was born galway, my grandmother received her citizenship under a different law, and then my mother received hers under FRB but filed after I was born. I was wondering if you heard anything for your application?
Sorry, I have not heard anything new about my case. COVID isn't helping. Have you heard anything regarding your case?
Rats. I was hoping you might been approved since you applied before me, and I saw that some people who had applied in the summer and autumn of 2019 were invited to the March ceremony. I should note that, although I applied this route, I have now been living in Ireland for over a little over a year. I received a letter in mid-March stating they were processing my application based on my Irish Associations, but I haven't heard anything since then. I saw they were working from home during covid lockdown, and I saw a very old post of a guy who applied this way after residing in Ireland after only two years, so I try to be optimistic!

Do you mind telling me how you were able to live in Ireland? Work permit/Critical skills? Best of luck with your case! Please keep me posted. I'm determined

Shakey · Post by **Shakey** » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:12 pm

I suspect I will be an interesting test case for the viability of the Irish Associations route and having time shaved off for citizenship.

Mother is Irish citizen by FBR. When I applied in January I had been in Ireland for four years so well over the three years advertised.

I received the receipt/application number within a few days of my application. No correspondence since.

handoubleu · Post by **handoubleu** » Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:31 am

blm wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:20 pm

handoubleu wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:42 am

blm wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:48 pm

handoubleu wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:06 am
I applied under these exact same circumstances November 2019 - great grandmother was born galway, my grandmother received her citizenship under a different law, and then my mother received hers under FRB but filed after I was born. I was wondering if you heard anything for your application?
Sorry, I have not heard anything new about my case. COVID isn't helping. Have you heard anything regarding your case?
Rats. I was hoping you might been approved since you applied before me, and I saw that some people who had applied in the summer and autumn of 2019 were invited to the March ceremony. I should note that, although I applied this route, I have now been living in Ireland for over a little over a year. I received a letter in mid-March stating they were processing my application based on my Irish Associations, but I haven't heard anything since then. I saw they were working from home during covid lockdown, and I saw a very old post of a guy who applied this way after residing in Ireland after only two years, so I try to be optimistic!
Do you mind telling me how you were able to live in Ireland? Work permit/Critical skills? Best of luck with your case! Please keep me posted. I'm determined

Work permit! I haven't much time left on my permit though so I was hoping to go this route. However, I have seen elsewhere that Irish Associations can take considerable time. Still, I hope to hear something in the next few months- if anything! have you heard since you applied?

handoubleu · Post by **handoubleu** » Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:55 am

I would think your odds are good since you've passed the 3 year mark! my time line is:

Application Based On: Irish Associations- mother was Foreign Registered Birth but filed after I was born
Applied On: 11 November 2019
Acknowledgement : returned passport, letter dated 12 November 2019
Second Letter: received letter stating application was received and statutory fee receipt but nothing in regards to processing to stage 2, letter dated 29 December 2019
Awaiting On Approval: -
Date of Ceremony: -
Received a letter 15 March stating application was being processed on my Irish Associations

littlerr · Post by **littlerr** » Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:13 pm

I'm quite curious to see how ISD treats applications based on Irish Associations, where the applicant has not resided in Ireland for 3/5 years.

My friend who is an immigration solicitor said it is always under their impression that this is a deliberate 'loophole' in the Citizenship Act, intended for those who has extraordinary talent or welfare and are likely to benefit Ireland (e.g. world-class researcher, famous actor, top-100 businessman etc). In case these people want to become an Irish citizen, they can do so via some distant relative and claim Irish Association while not having to physically live in Ireland.

For a normal person who has not lived in Ireland for 3 years to claim citizenship purely based on Irish Association would not be the intention of the law. ISD may simply delay the application for a few years and then check back and see if the applicant has now been living in Ireland for 5 years at least.

Anyway, good luck

handoubleu · Post by **handoubleu** » Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:49 pm

I am hopeful but wish I had more time under my belt. Ages ago, user jhbmike applied after only two years and was approved. However, I don't know how strict they've gotten since.

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