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Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Family member & Ancestry immigration; don't post other immigration categories, please!
Marriage | Unmarried Partners | Fiancé/e | Ancestry

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secret.simon
Moderator
Posts: 10975
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by secret.simon » Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:51 pm

nevilleturel wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:40 pm
the thing is a system cannot be designed that separates legitimate families. there is no rational. if that is the case then don't allow inter nationality marriages with UK nationals at all. because it does not make sense, you allow us to marry then split the family! the rules are such that maybe 30/40% of applicants get the visa, what about the rest of us who are just as legitimate.
The pathway for non-EEA spouses of British citizens is much harder than the one that you are on. At the very least, the financial requirements are much higher. And the fees go up on a regular basis (for the past few years, at about 25% per year). So the government is trying to deter immigration via the spousal route at the very least anyway.

You have not mentioned how old your son is, apart from being older to 7 years of age. Also, who does he live with in the UK?
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

nevilleturel
Newbie
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:00 am
India

Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by nevilleturel » Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:55 pm

secret.simon wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:51 pm
nevilleturel wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:40 pm
the thing is a system cannot be designed that separates legitimate families. there is no rational. if that is the case then don't allow inter nationality marriages with UK nationals at all. because it does not make sense, you allow us to marry then split the family! the rules are such that maybe 30/40% of applicants get the visa, what about the rest of us who are just as legitimate.
The pathway for non-EEA spouses of British citizens is much harder than the one that you are on. At the very least, the financial requirements are much higher. And the fees go up on a regular basis (for the past few years, at about 25% per year). So the government is trying to deter immigration via the spousal route at the very least anyway.

You have not mentioned how old your son is, apart from being older to 7 years of age. Also, who does he live with in the UK?
My son is 7. he lives with the mother and we have a mutual consent divorce. with visit rights and all that. I fulfil all these conditions. I will post parts of my refusal letter. it will be clearer.

thanks, Simon.

secret.simon
Moderator
Posts: 10975
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by secret.simon » Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:41 pm

nevilleturel wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:23 pm
also on human rights grounds, they dint consider my case or on the grounds of exceptional circumstances. Even though I and my son have not lived in the same country in the last 7 yrs.
nevilleturel wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:55 pm
My son is 7.
I'll be brutally honest. Your case looks very weak.

From these stats, it would appear to a sceptical caseworker that you have not played any role in your child's life so far and are only using the child to attempt to immigrate to the UK. Given that you have not been around for most of the child's life, I'm not sure even the "best interests of the child" test is engaged (though I do not know much of that aspect of the law-I'm not a lawyer-and will cc in @Obie, who knows more about the law than I do, to advise further).

Reproducing the text of the refusal letter (taking out all personally identifiable information) would help us guide you more on the financial requirements side of things.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

nevilleturel
Newbie
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:00 am
India

Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by nevilleturel » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:07 pm

secret.simon wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:41 pm
nevilleturel wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:23 pm
also on human rights grounds, they dint consider my case or on the grounds of exceptional circumstances. Even though I and my son have not lived in the same country in the last 7 yrs.
nevilleturel wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:55 pm
My son is 7.
I'll be brutally honest. Your case looks very weak.

From these stats, it would appear to a sceptical caseworker that you have not played any role in your child's life so far and are only using the child to attempt to immigrate to the UK. Given that you have not been around for most of the child's life, I'm not sure even the "best interests of the child" test is engaged (though I do not know much of that aspect of the law-I'm not a lawyer-and will cc in @Obie, who knows more about the law than I do, to advise further).

Reproducing the text of the refusal letter (taking out all personally identifiable information) would help us guide you more on the financial requirements side of things.
I see what you mean but its always in the best interest of the child.
In that case, I will have to show that my life in India is perfectly fine I have no immigration intentions based on my child but want to live close to him. And of course, my child is doing well, I want him to do well without me. What parent would not want that.
I will also give a statement from the mother this time and if possible from my son as well.

In fact, that would be my argument, that I haven't played a role and what father would not want to or need to. And what child would not want his father. under normal circumstances.

And the reason why I was not with him for 7 years also is valid. I was separated from the mother but married on paper hence I could not apply as a spouse or as a parent. There was no visa category for me to apply for settlement. I don't think they can question that.

I will upload parts of my refusal.

nevilleturel
Newbie
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:00 am
India

Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by nevilleturel » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:24 pm

Here are is the letter
Your human rights claim in an application for entry clearance made on 20/08/2020 is
refused.

What this means for you
You can appeal this decision. Instructions on how to appeal are in the ‘next steps’ section
of this letter. The reasons for this decision are set out on the next page.

Yours sincerely,
ECO MH Sheffield Visa Section

REASONS FOR REFUSAL
ROA
On 20/08/2020 you made an application for entry clearance to the UK under Appendix
FM to the Immigration Rules on the basis of your family life with your child.
Your application has been considered under those Rules, and with reference to Article 8
of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). The relevant Immigration Rules
can be viewed on gov.uk here: www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules.
This decision takes into account as a primary consideration the best interests of any
relevant child in line with section 55 of the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act
2009.
We have considered your application under paragraph EC-PT.1.1. of Appendix FM.
However, you do not qualify for entry clearance under the 5-year partner route for the
following reasons:

Suitability
Your application does not fall for refusal on grounds of suitability under Section S-EC of
Appendix FM.
Eligibility
Under paragraph EC-PT.1.1.(d) you do not meet all of the eligibility requirements of
Section E-ECP of Appendix FM for the following reasons:

Eligibility Relationship Requirement
You meet the eligibility relationship requirement of paragraphs E-ECPT.2.1. to 2.4.

Eligibility Financial Requirement
You do not meet the eligibility financial requirement of paragraphs E-ECPT.3.1. to 3.2.
You have not provided evidence which shows that there will be ‘adequate’ maintenance
for yourself and any dependants without further recourse to public funds.
The following formula has been used to calculate the income available to maintain you
and your dependants in the UK, taking into account your projected income and your
accommodation costs:
A – B ≥ C
A minus B is greater than or equal to C.
Where:
A is net income (after deduction of income tax and National Insurance contributions);
B is housing costs (i.e. what needs to be spent on accommodation); and
C is the amount of Income Support that would be received by a British family of
equivalent size.

Using the figures provided in your application, as listed above, the formula has been
completed as follows:
A £113.79 – B (Not Known) = (Not Known)

In order to meet the requirement of adequate maintenance, your net weekly income after
housing costs have been deducted must be greater than or equal to £142.62. However,
you have not provided evidence to show how much rent and council tax you will be
paying therefore it has not been possible to complete the formula above. You state that
you will initially live with your friend in London before eventually moving to rented
accommodation in Bristol. However, you have not provided any evidence of the
accommodation you intend to live in Bristol or any evidence of how long it will be
before you do eventually do move to Bristol.

I note that you have provided evidence of cash savings and a summary of all the cash
savings you hold, and the cash savings of other family members. You cannot rely on third-party support, therefore only the cash savings in your name have been taken into
account. I also note that some of the fixed deposits you have listed have not been held
for at least 6 months prior to the date of your application, therefore these have not been
used when calculating your net cash savings.

Given the above I am satisfied that the adequate maintenance requirement for you and
your dependant is not met. Please note that even if all your stated funds were taken into
account you would still not meet the adequate maintenance requirement as you have not
evidenced how much your accommodation costs will be once you are in the UK.

I also note that you intend to work in the UK. Paragraph 4.1. of the Immigration Rules
lists permitted income sources:
The following sources of income of the applicant (in respect of employment or self-
employment, only if they are in the UK with permission to work) or (as appropriate)
their partner, parent, parent’s partner or other sponsor can be counted where an
application under Appendix FM has to meet the adequate maintenance requirement:
 Income from salaried or non-salaried employment.
 Non-employment income, e.g. property rental or dividends from shares.
 Income from Working Tax Credit, Child Tax Credit, Child Benefit, income-
related benefits, contributory benefits and benefits/pensions payable to Armed
Forces veterans and their partner.
 Cash savings held for at least 6 months prior to the date of application.
 State (UK or foreign) or private pension.
 Income from self-employment and income as a director of a specified limited
company in the UK.

Income from potential employment in the UK is not a permitted source of income. In light
of all of the above, I therefore refuse your application under paragraph EC-PT.1.1(d) of
Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules. (E-ECPT.3.1)

Eligibility English Language Requirement
You meet the eligibility English language requirement of paragraphs E-ECPT.4.1. to 4.2.

Exceptional Circumstances
We have considered, under paragraphs GEN.3.1. and GEN.3.2. of Appendix FM as
applicable, whether there are exceptional circumstances in your case which could or
would render refusal a breach of Article 8 of the ECHR because it could or would result in
unjustifiably harsh consequences for you or your family. In so doing we have taken into
account, under paragraph GEN.3.3. of Appendix FM, the best interests of any relevant
child as a primary consideration.

You have provided no information or evidence to establish that there are any exceptional
circumstances in your case.

Refusal under the Parent Rules
In light of the above, your application is refused under paragraph D-ECPT.1.3. of
Appendix FM with reference to paragraph EC-PT.1.1.(d) and you do not qualify for entry
clearance on the 5-year parent route, or on the 10-year parent route on the basis of
exceptional circumstances, under Appendix FM.
-------------------------------------------------------
The mistake I made is not given rent projections and dint tells them how long before i will move to Bristol.
And the savings in my name are not 6 months old.
Even if these 2 things were met, given my case I think I would have got the visa.
Plus I didn't submit a letter from the mother expressing desire and need for me to be around.
So yes I made mistakes and I essentially applied in a rush.

the financial indices will go away by end of Nov as my funds wil be more than 6 months old and they are enough to support me and my child even though the child will not live with me. So i don't even need to show I have an extra room and all that.

Conditions in my divorce give me complete access without restriction to my child and custody is of course to the mother as I don't live in the UK.

nevilleturel
Newbie
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:00 am
India

Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by nevilleturel » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:26 pm

nevilleturel wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:24 pm
Here are is the letter
Your human rights claim in an application for entry clearance made on 20/08/2020 is
refused.

What this means for you
You can appeal this decision. Instructions on how to appeal are in the ‘next steps’ section
of this letter. The reasons for this decision are set out on the next page.

Yours sincerely,
ECO MH Sheffield Visa Section

REASONS FOR REFUSAL
ROA
On 20/08/2020 you made an application for entry clearance to the UK under Appendix
FM to the Immigration Rules on the basis of your family life with your child.
Your application has been considered under those Rules, and with reference to Article 8
of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). The relevant Immigration Rules
can be viewed on gov.uk here: www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules.
This decision takes into account as a primary consideration the best interests of any
relevant child in line with section 55 of the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act
2009.
We have considered your application under paragraph EC-PT.1.1. of Appendix FM.
However, you do not qualify for entry clearance under the 5-year partner route for the
following reasons:

Suitability
Your application does not fall for refusal on grounds of suitability under Section S-EC of
Appendix FM.
Eligibility
Under paragraph EC-PT.1.1.(d) you do not meet all of the eligibility requirements of
Section E-ECP of Appendix FM for the following reasons:

Eligibility Relationship Requirement
You meet the eligibility relationship requirement of paragraphs E-ECPT.2.1. to 2.4.

Eligibility Financial Requirement
You do not meet the eligibility financial requirement of paragraphs E-ECPT.3.1. to 3.2.
You have not provided evidence which shows that there will be ‘adequate’ maintenance
for yourself and any dependants without further recourse to public funds.
The following formula has been used to calculate the income available to maintain you
and your dependants in the UK, taking into account your projected income and your
accommodation costs:
A – B ≥ C
A minus B is greater than or equal to C.
Where:
A is net income (after deduction of income tax and National Insurance contributions);
B is housing costs (i.e. what needs to be spent on accommodation); and
C is the amount of Income Support that would be received by a British family of
equivalent size.

Using the figures provided in your application, as listed above, the formula has been
completed as follows:
A £113.79 – B (Not Known) = (Not Known)

In order to meet the requirement of adequate maintenance, your net weekly income after
housing costs have been deducted must be greater than or equal to £142.62. However,
you have not provided evidence to show how much rent and council tax you will be
paying therefore it has not been possible to complete the formula above. You state that
you will initially live with your friend in London before eventually moving to rented
accommodation in Bristol. However, you have not provided any evidence of the
accommodation you intend to live in Bristol or any evidence of how long it will be
before you do eventually do move to Bristol.

I note that you have provided evidence of cash savings and a summary of all the cash
savings you hold, and the cash savings of other family members. You cannot rely on third-party support, therefore only the cash savings in your name have been taken into
account. I also note that some of the fixed deposits you have listed have not been held
for at least 6 months prior to the date of your application, therefore these have not been
used when calculating your net cash savings.

Given the above I am satisfied that the adequate maintenance requirement for you and
your dependant is not met. Please note that even if all your stated funds were taken into
account you would still not meet the adequate maintenance requirement as you have not
evidenced how much your accommodation costs will be once you are in the UK.

I also note that you intend to work in the UK. Paragraph 4.1. of the Immigration Rules
lists permitted income sources:
The following sources of income of the applicant (in respect of employment or self-
employment, only if they are in the UK with permission to work) or (as appropriate)
their partner, parent, parent’s partner or other sponsor can be counted where an
application under Appendix FM has to meet the adequate maintenance requirement:
 Income from salaried or non-salaried employment.
 Non-employment income, e.g. property rental or dividends from shares.
 Income from Working Tax Credit, Child Tax Credit, Child Benefit, income-
related benefits, contributory benefits and benefits/pensions payable to Armed
Forces veterans and their partner.
 Cash savings held for at least 6 months prior to the date of application.
 State (UK or foreign) or private pension.
 Income from self-employment and income as a director of a specified limited
company in the UK.

Income from potential employment in the UK is not a permitted source of income. In light
of all of the above, I therefore refuse your application under paragraph EC-PT.1.1(d) of
Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules. (E-ECPT.3.1)

Eligibility English Language Requirement
You meet the eligibility English language requirement of paragraphs E-ECPT.4.1. to 4.2.

Exceptional Circumstances
We have considered, under paragraphs GEN.3.1. and GEN.3.2. of Appendix FM as
applicable, whether there are exceptional circumstances in your case which could or
would render refusal a breach of Article 8 of the ECHR because it could or would result in
unjustifiably harsh consequences for you or your family. In so doing we have taken into
account, under paragraph GEN.3.3. of Appendix FM, the best interests of any relevant
child as a primary consideration.

You have provided no information or evidence to establish that there are any exceptional
circumstances in your case.

Refusal under the Parent Rules
In light of the above, your application is refused under paragraph D-ECPT.1.3. of
Appendix FM with reference to paragraph EC-PT.1.1.(d) and you do not qualify for entry
clearance on the 5-year parent route, or on the 10-year parent route on the basis of
exceptional circumstances, under Appendix FM.
-------------------------------------------------------
The mistake I made is not given rent projections and dint tells them how long before i will move to Bristol.
And the savings in my name are not 6 months old.
Even if these 2 things were met, given my case I think I would have got the visa.
Plus I didn't submit a letter from the mother expressing desire and need for me to be around.
So yes I made mistakes and I essentially applied in a rush.

the financial inadequacy will go away by end of Nov as my funds will be more than 6 months old and they are enough to support me and my child even though the child will not live with me. So I don't even need to show I have an extra room and all that.

Conditions in my divorce give me complete access without restriction to my child and custody is of course to the mother as I don't live in the UK.
And i believe I do have a right to be with my son under "right to family life" under the Europen human right convention.

secret.simon
Moderator
Posts: 10975
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by secret.simon » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:57 pm

nevilleturel wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:26 pm
And i believe I do have a right to be with my son under "right to family life" under the Europen human right convention.
You'll need a solicitor well-versed in both human rights and immigration law to argue your case in court. And keep in mind that the government may well appeal a judgment in your favour, if you were to get it.

And if you lose, you pay both your own legal fees as well as the government's (conversely, if you win, the government will have to pay your legal fees. Essentially, the loser pays the legal fees for both sides)
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

nevilleturel
Newbie
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:00 am
India

Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by nevilleturel » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:07 pm

secret.simon wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:57 pm
nevilleturel wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:26 pm
And i believe I do have a right to be with my son under "right to family life" under the Europen human right convention.
You'll need a solicitor well-versed in both human rights and immigration law to argue your case in court. And keep in mind that the government may well appeal a judgment in your favour, if you were to get it.

And if you lose, you pay both your own legal fees as well as the government's (conversely, if you win, the government will have to pay your legal fees. Essentially, the loser pays the legal fees for both sides)
I belive the government fee is fixed at 80 for on paper hearing and some 180 for in-person or so.
I dint quite get what you mean if I win the government will pay my legal fees? Do you mean the 80/180 pounds?

AmazonianX
Respected Guru
Posts: 7305
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:09 pm

Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by AmazonianX » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:11 pm

nevilleturel wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:26 pm
nevilleturel wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:24 pm
Here are is the letter
Your human rights claim in an application for entry clearance made on 20/08/2020 is
refused.

What this means for you
You can appeal this decision. Instructions on how to appeal are in the ‘next steps’ section
of this letter. The reasons for this decision are set out on the next page.

Yours sincerely,
ECO MH Sheffield Visa Section

REASONS FOR REFUSAL
ROA
On 20/08/2020 you made an application for entry clearance to the UK under Appendix
FM to the Immigration Rules on the basis of your family life with your child.
Your application has been considered under those Rules, and with reference to Article 8
of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). The relevant Immigration Rules
can be viewed on gov.uk here: www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules.
This decision takes into account as a primary consideration the best interests of any
relevant child in line with section 55 of the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act
2009.
We have considered your application under paragraph EC-PT.1.1. of Appendix FM.
However, you do not qualify for entry clearance under the 5-year partner route for the
following reasons:

Suitability
Your application does not fall for refusal on grounds of suitability under Section S-EC of
Appendix FM.
Eligibility
Under paragraph EC-PT.1.1.(d) you do not meet all of the eligibility requirements of
Section E-ECP of Appendix FM for the following reasons:

Eligibility Relationship Requirement
You meet the eligibility relationship requirement of paragraphs E-ECPT.2.1. to 2.4.

Eligibility Financial Requirement
You do not meet the eligibility financial requirement of paragraphs E-ECPT.3.1. to 3.2.
You have not provided evidence which shows that there will be ‘adequate’ maintenance
for yourself and any dependants without further recourse to public funds.
The following formula has been used to calculate the income available to maintain you
and your dependants in the UK, taking into account your projected income and your
accommodation costs:
A – B ≥ C
A minus B is greater than or equal to C.
Where:
A is net income (after deduction of income tax and National Insurance contributions);
B is housing costs (i.e. what needs to be spent on accommodation); and
C is the amount of Income Support that would be received by a British family of
equivalent size.

Using the figures provided in your application, as listed above, the formula has been
completed as follows:
A £113.79 – B (Not Known) = (Not Known)

In order to meet the requirement of adequate maintenance, your net weekly income after
housing costs have been deducted must be greater than or equal to £142.62. However,
you have not provided evidence to show how much rent and council tax you will be
paying therefore it has not been possible to complete the formula above. You state that
you will initially live with your friend in London before eventually moving to rented
accommodation in Bristol. However, you have not provided any evidence of the
accommodation you intend to live in Bristol or any evidence of how long it will be
before you do eventually do move to Bristol.

I note that you have provided evidence of cash savings and a summary of all the cash
savings you hold, and the cash savings of other family members. You cannot rely on third-party support, therefore only the cash savings in your name have been taken into
account. I also note that some of the fixed deposits you have listed have not been held
for at least 6 months prior to the date of your application, therefore these have not been
used when calculating your net cash savings.

Given the above I am satisfied that the adequate maintenance requirement for you and
your dependant is not met. Please note that even if all your stated funds were taken into
account you would still not meet the adequate maintenance requirement as you have not
evidenced how much your accommodation costs will be once you are in the UK.

I also note that you intend to work in the UK. Paragraph 4.1. of the Immigration Rules
lists permitted income sources:
The following sources of income of the applicant (in respect of employment or self-
employment, only if they are in the UK with permission to work) or (as appropriate)
their partner, parent, parent’s partner or other sponsor can be counted where an
application under Appendix FM has to meet the adequate maintenance requirement:
 Income from salaried or non-salaried employment.
 Non-employment income, e.g. property rental or dividends from shares.
 Income from Working Tax Credit, Child Tax Credit, Child Benefit, income-
related benefits, contributory benefits and benefits/pensions payable to Armed
Forces veterans and their partner.
 Cash savings held for at least 6 months prior to the date of application.
 State (UK or foreign) or private pension.
 Income from self-employment and income as a director of a specified limited
company in the UK.

Income from potential employment in the UK is not a permitted source of income. In light
of all of the above, I therefore refuse your application under paragraph EC-PT.1.1(d) of
Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules. (E-ECPT.3.1)

Eligibility English Language Requirement
You meet the eligibility English language requirement of paragraphs E-ECPT.4.1. to 4.2.

Exceptional Circumstances
We have considered, under paragraphs GEN.3.1. and GEN.3.2. of Appendix FM as
applicable, whether there are exceptional circumstances in your case which could or
would render refusal a breach of Article 8 of the ECHR because it could or would result in
unjustifiably harsh consequences for you or your family. In so doing we have taken into
account, under paragraph GEN.3.3. of Appendix FM, the best interests of any relevant
child as a primary consideration.

You have provided no information or evidence to establish that there are any exceptional
circumstances in your case.

Refusal under the Parent Rules
In light of the above, your application is refused under paragraph D-ECPT.1.3. of
Appendix FM with reference to paragraph EC-PT.1.1.(d) and you do not qualify for entry
clearance on the 5-year parent route, or on the 10-year parent route on the basis of
exceptional circumstances, under Appendix FM.
-------------------------------------------------------
The mistake I made is not given rent projections and dint tells them how long before i will move to Bristol.
And the savings in my name are not 6 months old.
Even if these 2 things were met, given my case I think I would have got the visa.
Plus I didn't submit a letter from the mother expressing desire and need for me to be around.
So yes I made mistakes and I essentially applied in a rush.

the financial inadequacy will go away by end of Nov as my funds will be more than 6 months old and they are enough to support me and my child even though the child will not live with me. So I don't even need to show I have an extra room and all that.

Conditions in my divorce give me complete access without restriction to my child and custody is of course to the mother as I don't live in the UK.
And i believe I do have a right to be with my son under "right to family life" under the Europen human right convention.
Your providing the above quite helpful. The identified points of refusal and which you have highlighted are what needs to be addressed.
There will be the need to write quite well and put forward unassailable argument on human rights and right to family life- your child in this case.
For the Bristol move and on several point from ECO, you need to give figures of what your rental cum council tax expenses will be.

secret.simon
Moderator
Posts: 10975
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by secret.simon » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:32 pm

nevilleturel wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:07 pm
I belive the government fee is fixed at 80 for on paper hearing and some 180 for in-person or so.
I dint quite get what you mean if I win the government will pay my legal fees? Do you mean the 80/180 pounds?
I meant the lawyer's fees. The above are the court fees, which, as you mentioned are capped.

An alternate approach may be to make a fresh application, addressing the refusal reasons.

Where in the UK does your son live? Will it be easy to travel between his houses (with you and his mother)?

Is there any reason for choosing to settle in Bristol (do you have family there, etc)? If not, look up the rents for properties in Bristol on Zoopla and Rightmove (be sure to ignore student rentals, as they are based on the academic year of nine months). You can then show how you meet the financial requirements taking into account the accommodation costs.

A quick search for a studio or one-bedroom apartment suggests that you are looking at between £150 to £220 per week.

Keep in mind that your income/savings must be greater than (£142.62+housing cost) per week (multiple by 52 to get the annual amounts). According to the letter, you only showed savings/income of £113.79 per week. You will likely need to demonstrate triple that amount of savings/income. Read the guidance on adequate maintenance to calculate how savings are factored into the equation.

A letter from the mother stating that she would like you to play a larger part in your son's life (and possibly even including a plan on how your son will split his time between you and the mother) would strengthen the case.

As an aside, keep in mind that if you get the visa and arrive in the UK, things have changed drastically in the last ten years. The "hostile environment" (which is the government's own term) will require you to prove your right to reside and work in the UK repeatedly (such as when you try to rent your place, try to get a job, etc). And you will need to make another application to remain in the UK in another 2.5 years anyway.

Assuming that you get this visa, it is just the start of a long difficult journey over years.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by nevilleturel » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:09 pm

secret.simon wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:32 pm
nevilleturel wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:07 pm
I belive the government fee is fixed at 80 for on paper hearing and some 180 for in-person or so.
I dint quite get what you mean if I win the government will pay my legal fees? Do you mean the 80/180 pounds?
I meant the lawyer's fees. The above are the court fees, which, as you mentioned are capped.

An alternate approach may be to make a fresh application, addressing the refusal reasons.

Where in the UK does your son live? Will it be easy to travel between his houses (with you and his mother)?

Is there any reason for choosing to settle in Bristol (do you have family there, etc)? If not, look up the rents for properties in Bristol on Zoopla and Rightmove (be sure to ignore student rentals, as they are based on the academic year of nine months). You can then show how you meet the financial requirements taking into account the accommodation costs.

A quick search for a studio or one-bedroom apartment suggests that you are looking at between £150 to £220 per week.

Keep in mind that your income/savings must be greater than (£142.62+housing cost) per week (multiple by 52 to get the annual amounts). According to the letter, you only showed savings/income of £113.79 per week. You will likely need to demonstrate triple that amount of savings/income. Read the guidance on adequate maintenance to calculate how savings are factored into the equation.

A letter from the mother stating that she would like you to play a larger part in your son's life (and possibly even including a plan on how your son will split his time between you and the mother) would strengthen the case.

As an aside, keep in mind that if you get the visa and arrive in the UK, things have changed drastically in the last ten years. The "hostile environment" (which is the government's own term) will require you to prove your right to reside and work in the UK repeatedly (such as when you try to rent your place, try to get a job, etc). And you will need to make another application to remain in the UK in another 2.5 years anyway.

Assuming that you get this visa, it is just the start of a difficult journey

You mean if i win the gov will pay my lawyer fees? really!
Son lives in Glastonbury.
Bristol rents are 150 to 200 GBP on gumtree.
If I add 143+200 = 343 per week I can show this much in my name in savings (in FDs though). for all 2.5 years. but my 6 months ends in Nov and some in mid-December. and this is on the higher side. I am actually looking at 500/600 pm house share. Since technically my son does not live with me. Bristol rents are much cheaper than London and I can find work much easier in a city. Almost all is planned in my head I just dint declare it in detail in my application. I am going to stay in London with a friend for as long as I need. Even then the visa officer is asking me "you dint mention how long you will stay in London"

I don't have an income right now as not working.

Yes, renew in 2.5 and 5 years. I have to check what the income level is for renewal again.

I feel very frustrated about not projecting rent. I thought since I didn't have evidence for rent payment it was stupid of me to just say I will spend this much based on gumtree.

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by nevilleturel » Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:32 am

the calculations done by the visa officer were based on the savings which were more than 6 months old not the 3/4 months old savings. Hence if you consider all of the savings in my name.

A= 423 per/week (and this is on the lower side and for 2.5 yrs) essentially 2.5 yrs without work, even though I will work
B= 150 (rent + Council tax)
C= 113.79 (accordint the ECo calculation)

423-150 >= 113.79 (the answer is Yes!!)
273 >= 113.79 per/week (it greater by a margin of 159 GBP per week)

423 is all in savings and semi-liquid investments (FDs) which they already recognise in the letter. None of it is income inflow. just because I didn't make these projections and my funds were 3/4 months old i got a refusal. At the time of decisions, my funds were almost 5 months old.

it's surprising to refuse an application without human discretion in my case at least, which is legitimate and I sufficiently meet the requirements. My case is not weak. it's just a premature application.
when applicants spend 1500 per application they have to consider that.

I will need to check my calculations again as I am dyslexic but I think I am on the right track.

@secret.simon can you please let me know about this UK gove covering fees if I win.

Please let me know if there are any thoughts on my post/calculation or other angles.
Thank you all for your help.

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by nevilleturel » Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:10 am

secret.simon wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:32 pm

Is there any reason for choosing to settle in Bristol (do you have family there, etc)? If not, look up the rents for properties in Bristol on Zoopla and Rightmove (be sure to ignore student rentals, as they are based on the academic year of nine months). You can then show how you meet the financial requirements taking into account the accommodation costs.

A quick search for a studio or one-bedroom apartment suggests that you are looking at between £150 to £220 per week.
For rooms is have been searching most on Facebook actually. There are group like -
Bristol Housing, Room & Flat Share
ROOMS, FLATS & HOUSES TO RENT IN BRISTOL (UK)

I don't even need a one-bedroom apartment, just a double room in a house share or the most ideal would be a small studio. so the cost is around 400 to 700 per month in that range. so similar to what you said per week.

these adds are without brokers so I like to search here, will the visa office recognise this?

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by secret.simon » Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:32 am

When you are coming in from abroad, you want to factor in the cost of a small studio or a one-bedroom flat, if your son will be spending any nights with you. House shares may have complications such as having to get the current occupants possibly having to get a house survey done that the house won't be overcrowded.

Much better to factor in the cost of a one-bedroom flat, as that will factor in space in case your son will be staying with you from time to time.

I would suggest finding a few (5-10) listings (ideally off Zoopla or Rightmove, as these are used for rentals and house sales) and printing them off to show the visa office that these are the average prices in the neighbourhood that you plan to live in and that you have factored them into your calculations.

Council tax whacks on another £10-20 per week (assuming a one-bedroom flat and factoring in the 25% discount for single occupancy).
nevilleturel wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:09 pm
I am going to stay in London with a friend for as long as I need. Even then the visa officer is asking me "you dint mention how long you will stay in London"
State that you will be staying with your friend for a period of three/four months while you sort out finalising a place for yourself in Bristol.

A letter from your friend stating that you will be staying with them (and ideally also stating how many rooms they have, to show that their house will not be overcrowded), and any rent that you will be paying, would help your case on that point.
nevilleturel wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:32 am
@secret.simon can you please let me know about this UK gove covering fees if I win.
That is my understanding, but be aware that I do not have any experience in this field. I would leave it for others to advise further on this question.

Also factor in that if you lose, you will pay their fees as well. As I have mentioned above, your case has weak aspects, such as you not having lived with your son for almost all his life.
nevilleturel wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:09 pm
Almost all is planned in my head I just dint declare it in detail in my application.
Years ago, in one of my first jobs, I was told by my manager "If it ain't written, it does not exist". Your mind is not a crystal ball to be read. Write it down. Spell it out.
nevilleturel wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:32 am
I will need to check my calculations again as I am dyslexic
My brother is dyslexic as well, but that did not stop him from getting an engineering degree and post-graduate certifications, or from having better language skills than me. It is only a limitation if you allow it to become a limitation.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by vinny » Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:04 pm

secret.simon wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:32 am
nevilleturel wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:32 am
I will need to check my calculations again as I am dyslexic
My brother is dyslexic as well, but that did not stop him from getting an engineering degree and post-graduate certifications, or from having better language skills than me. It is only a limitation if you allow it to become a limitation.
These people were not limited by it, including Matt Hancock.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by nevilleturel » Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:11 am

@secret.simon
you are right by the way about the fee

"If you win your appeal
The Home Office will change (‘revise’) its decision if you win your appeal. The Home Office may reconsider your entire application if your circumstances have changed since you first made your appeal.

The judge may order the Home Office to pay you a ‘fee award’ if you win your appeal, up to the amount you paid for your tribunal fee.

Email the Home Office if you do not get your fee award after 60 days."

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by nevilleturel » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:51 am

Hi, this is a bit urgent. If there are any lawyers here or are confident about this;

I need to know the 28 day period of making an appeal starts from the date the decision is made or the date the applicant comes to know of the decisions.
In my case, they are 2 very different dates.

2nd Nov decision made
9th November I got the email and letter.

I know the online link so please do not point me int hat direction.
it says from the day "I get the decision"

Please let me know any thoughts that are sure. Thanks
I am getting different answers from advocates in India.

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by AmazonianX » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:21 am

nevilleturel wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:51 am
Hi, this is a bit urgent. If there are any lawyers here or are confident about this;

I need to know the 28 day period of making an appeal starts from the date the decision is made or the date the applicant comes to know of the decisions.
In my case, they are 2 very different dates.

2nd Nov decision made
9th November I got the email and letter.

I know the online link so please do not point me int hat direction.
it says from the day "I get the decision"

Please let me know any thoughts that are sure. Thanks
I am getting different answers from advocates in India.
No one will cone forward to tout their services. If it is to engage services of, the forum does not allow this so you may have to get yourself.

https://www.gov.uk/find-an-immigration- ... an-adviser

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by nevilleturel » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:02 pm

AmazonianX wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:21 am
nevilleturel wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:51 am
Hi, this is a bit urgent. If there are any lawyers here or are confident about this;

I need to know the 28 day period of making an appeal starts from the date the decision is made or the date the applicant comes to know of the decisions.
In my case, they are 2 very different dates.

2nd Nov decision made
9th November I got the email and letter.

I know the online link so please do not point me int hat direction.
it says from the day "I get the decision"

Please let me know any thoughts that are sure. Thanks
I am getting different answers from advocates in India.
No one will cone forward to tout their services. If it is to engage services of, the forum does not allow this so you may have to get yourself.

https://www.gov.uk/find-an-immigration- ... an-adviser
I am not sure if I have been misunderstood here.
Anyway, if anyone knows for sure about the dates please clarify.

I can look for UK solicitors online no problem if they do quick or one-time consultations.
but if anyone is sure on the dates please let me know.

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by Fififadi » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:24 pm

28 days from receiving refusal. Not the date on the letter of refusal.

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by nevilleturel » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:24 pm

Fififadi wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:24 pm
28 days from receiving refusal. Not the date on the letter of refusal.
Thank you.

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by nevilleturel » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:58 pm

Hi, just thought would update on the situation.

There is a clause and scope for the ECO to consider potential earnings on a fundamental level within the visa rules. but because my application had mistakes and gaps and I never anticipated all this so never declared potential income possibility or cost of living. And show comparatively how I meet them. tragic thing is, by the end of Dec all my funds will qualify for consideration. The decision seems very dismissive, and I understand that the ECO is well within his rights and discretion to make this decision. so close, but not there. after 7 years.
I also get I am to be blamed here.

In light of a few factors in my refusal and disqualification, I have decided not to go ahead with the appeal, as there is judge discretion involved here and I can't bank on that anymore. If I wait I will financially fully qualify for my application.

My relationship was not even questioned in the refusal. which is positive and other factors were not an issue.

I hope that someone reads this post in time in future and learns from all this what needs to be done if they are in a similar situation.

One of my last questions - is there any restriction or timeline bound for me making a fresh application? is there a waiting period or any other condition before I can re apply.

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by nevilleturel » Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:17 pm

I would also like to add

My disagreement, voice and subversion is towards a system which is harsh, dismissive, not just, and excessively scrutinising genuine application like mine. It does not mean that these are my sentiments or feeling towards the people or people in general that are related to it.

All individuals on this forum have been respectful, refrain from personal judgement and helpful.

So Thank you.

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by seagul » Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:36 pm

nevilleturel wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:58 pm


My relationship was not even questioned in the refusal. which is positive and other factors were not an issue.
Not necessarily be implied as it to be the case because several times not all refusal reasons are pronounced in entirety especially where one gigantic reason alone is sufficient to refuse the application. Anecdotally, myriad of cases do exist when were reapplied then were refused for other reasons which weren't pointed out earlier.
nevilleturel wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:58 pm
One of my last questions - is there any restriction or timeline bound for me making a fresh application? is there a waiting period or any other condition before I can re apply.
There is no restriction over reapplying but owlishly unless making a complete overhaul, one shouldn't venture out such perilous manoeuvre. Good luck
The opinion expressed as above is neither a professional advice nor contesting/competing to other member's opinion/advice.

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Re: Appeal for refusal under settlement as a parent

Post by AmazonianX » Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:45 pm

nevilleturel wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:58 pm
Hi, just thought would update on the situation.

There is a clause and scope for the ECO to consider potential earnings on a fundamental level within the visa rules. but because my application had mistakes and gaps and I never anticipated all this so never declared potential income possibility or cost of living. And show comparatively how I meet them. tragic thing is, by the end of Dec all my funds will qualify for consideration. The decision seems very dismissive, and I understand that the ECO is well within his rights and discretion to make this decision. so close, but not there. after 7 years.
I also get I am to be blamed here.

In light of a few factors in my refusal and disqualification, I have decided not to go ahead with the appeal, as there is judge discretion involved here and I can't bank on that anymore. If I wait I will financially fully qualify for my application.

My relationship was not even questioned in the refusal. which is positive and other factors were not an issue.

I hope that someone reads this post in time in future and learns from all this what needs to be done if they are in a similar situation.

One of my last questions - is there any restriction or timeline bound for me making a fresh application? is there a waiting period or any other condition before I can re apply.
IMHO, the above message essentially may be a favorable way to go as per making a fresh application when funds qualify for consideration. While going on appeal is good to seek redress, it appears the system is lopsided and in some ways particularly the time taken from start to finish of appeal punishes applicants who got refused - talk about the wheel of justice grinding slowly.
Going forward, in the fresh application do also seek to ensure a robust address is given to the relationship aspect with your ex and child.
Goodluck.

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