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Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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nojoyfrominis
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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by nojoyfrominis » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:33 pm

That is why you need a good solicitor. You broke the terms of your Eufam visa. It is sufficient to revoke visa but revoking citizenship is not that easy. Example: you said you are from India and India do not allow dual citizenship. So if you have surrendered your Indian citizenship, revoking your Irish citizenship will make you stateless.
Let the solicitor handle as your case seems very complex.

Rupaireland
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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Rupaireland » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:53 pm

nojoyfrominis wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:33 pm
That is why you need a good solicitor. You broke the terms of your Eufam visa. It is sufficient to revoke visa but revoking citizenship is not that easy. Example: you said you are from India and India do not allow dual citizenship. So if you have surrendered your Indian citizenship, revoking your Irish citizenship will make you stateless.
Let the solicitor handle as your case seems very complex.
My solicitor just asked me to provide proof as much as i can. And i gave them. she just submitted the documents with an appeal letter.
i am just wondering if they are not happy with all of my documents ..what next can be happen? i mean what is the procedure to revoke ?

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Vorona » Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:05 pm

Rupaireland wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:53 pm
i am just wondering if they are not happy with all of my documents ..what next can be happen? i mean what is the procedure to revoke ?
Are you seriously expecting a detailed description of the process?
Cancelling someone's citizenship is such a rare event that there's not enough information about the actual procedure. Speak with a solicitor as you have been advised multiple times.

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Zerubbabel
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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Zerubbabel » Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:26 pm

appeal letter
Did they revoke your citizenship already or are you fighting it?

Technically, you were illegally resident in Ireland before your naturalisation. As your EEA citizen left Ireland and wasn't exercising Treaty Rights, you had no ground to live in Ireland. But they missed that during your naturalisation application. I think it will be hard for them to fix it now and remove the already granted citizenship.

Did you give back your Indian passport?

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Finepaddy » Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:32 pm

Rupaireland wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:53 pm
nojoyfrominis wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:33 pm
That is why you need a good solicitor. You broke the terms of your Eufam visa. It is sufficient to revoke visa but revoking citizenship is not that easy. Example: you said you are from India and India do not allow dual citizenship. So if you have surrendered your Indian citizenship, revoking your Irish citizenship will make you stateless.
Let the solicitor handle as your case seems very complex.
My solicitor just asked me to provide proof as much as i can. And i gave them. she just submitted the documents with an appeal letter.
i am just wondering if they are not happy with all of my documents ..what next can be happen? i mean what is the procedure to revoke ?

If u want I can help you but not sure how u can reach me as they won't let me put my mobile number.

Don't worry they won't revoke your citizenship soon as that will be long process and it can be done only through tribunal/commission and no matter what they have against you.every thing has to goes in front of tribunal and they will provide you chance to explain and then they will decide.
Finepaddy becomes badpaddy :mrgreen:

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Zerubbabel » Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:35 pm

Finepaddy wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:32 pm
Rupaireland wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:53 pm
nojoyfrominis wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:33 pm
That is why you need a good solicitor. You broke the terms of your Eufam visa. It is sufficient to revoke visa but revoking citizenship is not that easy. Example: you said you are from India and India do not allow dual citizenship. So if you have surrendered your Indian citizenship, revoking your Irish citizenship will make you stateless.
Let the solicitor handle as your case seems very complex.
My solicitor just asked me to provide proof as much as i can. And i gave them. she just submitted the documents with an appeal letter.
i am just wondering if they are not happy with all of my documents ..what next can be happen? i mean what is the procedure to revoke ?

If u want I can help you but not sure how u can reach me as they won't let me put my mobile number.

Don't worry they won't revoke your citizenship soon as that will be long process and it can be done only through tribunal/commission and no matter what they have against you.every thing has to goes in front of tribunal and they will provide you chance to explain and then they will decide.
Try to help him in the public forum please. 1-2-1 and phone contacts rarely end up well.

ailA2019
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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by ailA2019 » Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:57 pm

sorry , I don't mean to offend you, I won't say they are right, I just speak in general,

but I don't think the minister will revoke citizenship without strong evidence.

Unfortunately, because of some case like that. we LIVE years in limbo.

therefore the department believes all applicants are deceitful unless proven otherwise. A result the cases took a very long time in citizenship approval and especially more for some nationalities.

however, anyone has misrepresentation whether innocent or fraudulent, or concealment of material facts or circumstances, or have failed in his duty of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State

should not be tolerated and must be revoked and Deport with no exception and that will be deterrent to any other and also will contribute to Sort the good people quickly and complete their processing.

finally, We might think that giving advice might be the best way to help but we shouldn't give advice without knowing full details into a case.

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Finepaddy » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:56 pm

Zerubbabel wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:35 pm
Finepaddy wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:32 pm
Rupaireland wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:53 pm
nojoyfrominis wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:33 pm
That is why you need a good solicitor. You broke the terms of your Eufam visa. It is sufficient to revoke visa but revoking citizenship is not that easy. Example: you said you are from India and India do not allow dual citizenship. So if you have surrendered your Indian citizenship, revoking your Irish citizenship will make you stateless.
Let the solicitor handle as your case seems very complex.
My solicitor just asked me to provide proof as much as i can. And i gave them. she just submitted the documents with an appeal letter.
i am just wondering if they are not happy with all of my documents ..what next can be happen? i mean what is the procedure to revoke ?

If u want I can help you but not sure how u can reach me as they won't let me put my mobile number.

Don't worry they won't revoke your citizenship soon as that will be long process and it can be done only through tribunal/commission and no matter what they have against you.every thing has to goes in front of tribunal and they will provide you chance to explain and then they will decide.
Try to help him in the public forum please. 1-2-1 and phone contacts rarely end up well.
Don't expect he will share his personal details on public forum.
It will end well thats why want to help.
Finepaddy becomes badpaddy :mrgreen:

Rupaireland
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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Rupaireland » Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:06 pm

ailA2019 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:57 pm
sorry , I don't mean to offend you, I won't say they are right, I just speak in general,

but I don't think the minister will revoke citizenship without strong evidence.

Unfortunately, because of some case like that. we LIVE years in limbo.

therefore the department believes all applicants are deceitful unless proven otherwise. A result the cases took a very long time in citizenship approval and especially more for some nationalities.

however, anyone has misrepresentation whether innocent or fraudulent, or concealment of material facts or circumstances, or have failed in his duty of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State

should not be tolerated and must be revoked and Deport with no exception and that will be deterrent to any other and also will contribute to Sort the good people quickly and complete their processing.

finally, We might think that giving advice might be the best way to help but we shouldn't give advice without knowing full details into a case.
As i told you earlier we had a real relationship and real marriage but she did not live here permanently and worked here. But i did not put any false information to get visa as long as she worked i gave them that documents,she never took any benefits from this country. we visited lots of countries together during 12 years of relationship.my fault is she did not full fill eu treaty right in this country. but how i can let inin know that she left ireland permanently and never come back to me. we visited together 2018 to my country to visit my family. and till that time we had no plan for divorce. so in their hand they have proof that i did not full fill EU treaty right and i have proof that my relationship was not fake.i hope u get me now. thanks

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Finepaddy » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:36 pm

Stick to your story and eventually they will lose interest.
Finepaddy becomes badpaddy :mrgreen:

Obie
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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Obie » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:01 am

Rupaireland how did you get permanent residence if she was not living in Ireland at least 6 months in every year over a 5 years period.

Did you apply from 5 years to citizenship?
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Rupaireland » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:34 am

Obie wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:01 am
Rupaireland how did you get permanent residence if she was not living in Ireland at least 6 months in every year over a 5 years period.

Did you apply from 5 years to citizenship?

NO I did not . I applied for naturalisation straight way.

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by griffith » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:40 am

I am not an expert and not sure what advice to give you but a close friend of mine had a very similar situation. Passport revoked after the allegations of a contracted marriage.

The Doj couldn't do anything about it. He is still residing here with his second wife and kids and all of them have their own irish passports.
Stay strong & never Give up!

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Rupaireland » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:44 pm

I would like to ask u if it's possible can you please let me know whats the procedure he did?
I submitted all proof of documents through solicitor and EU4 form.in february 2020.
They gave me same letter again 13th of november and told me if i think they are wrong i can review again.
i did with few additional documents.
Now i am wondering if they are not satisfied what will be the next?
Do i need to go for Judicial Review ?? or they will keep asking me for review ?

if you can ask your friend it would be very grateful for me .
Thanks

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Obie » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:52 pm

The problem is, How could the department revoke something that you do not have.

There simply is no provision in law for them to revoke a stamp 4EU fam for a Irish citizen, as Irish national do not require one.

This process will only be lawful if the minister initiate proceedings against the nationality matter, until they do you are an Irish national and under no obligation to engage with the Minister at this stage.

Unless the minister invokes the provision of Section 19 of the Nationality act, i fail to understand the basis for the current exercise.

There are many issues in this case, you appear to be an Indian national, which meant you would have lost your Indian nationality when you became an Irish national.

Ireland is a signatory to the 1961 convention on reduction of statelessness.
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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by griffith » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:10 pm

The DoJ sent him a letter that your first wife was not residing in Ireland while you were still married therefore any tax letters and payslips submitted then were forged. They provided proofs of all fake documents that he submitted then.
He hired a solicitor to convince the minister that it's not the way how they think it is and that the marriage was not contracted just for residency permission but the minister was not satisfied and he was given 28 days to sumbit a reply as to why they should not revoke his naturalisation certificate?

During those 28 days he submitted his own papers including the passport of his irish born son, and requested to consider his current circumstances and not past. (I am not sure what else what written in that letter as i havent seen the letter myself)

After sending that letter to the DOJ he never heard anything back from them.
This was about 2 years ago and to date he hasn't received a single letter from the minister.
Now i am not saying that you should do the same as i am not an expert but this information might help.
If you need any help with your case please hire a solicitor or there are so many experts on this forum please consult with them (think Obie is the best one) as EVERY CASE IS DIFFERENT IN ITS NATURE!!!
Stay strong & never Give up!

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Obie » Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:53 am

Thank Griffiths. This make sense.
If the letter is under section 19, then I think it is lawful, but i thought it is about revocation of Stamp 4EU fam, which he clearly does not have.

The minister may take the position that, your lawful residence claim was fraud as you were not residing here lawful, as the documents you submitted have been found to be forged, or as a result of that you are a person of bad character, therefore you did not meet the statutory test on the day the minister exercised discretion.

I am not saying the minister will be correct in making such assessment.

But the stamp 4EU fam was the troubling bit.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Zerubbabel » Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:34 pm

Very interesting case from the legal point of view.

If this gentleman keeps the Irish citizenship, it means anyone who can fraud his way through an Irish naturalisation, can keep it forever.

In other hand, as he lost his Indian citizenship, it will be very difficult for them to take away the Irish one.

I think the key here is that they did a very poor job in checking the application during the naturalisation process and they are trying to do a damage control now. More especially his move to forge his EEA sponsor tax documents was bold; suicidal really. Anything regarding taxes is kept on databases available to authorities. Just a single cross-check could've revealed the fraud.

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by griffith » Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:43 pm

The person who i am referring to is a Pakistan citizen holding dual irish nationality.
Minister provided evidence of his first wife's residence in Latvia while he had shown that she was exercising her treaty rights in Ireland with forged but registered jobs.
Clearly the minister had sufficient documents to revoke his naturalisation certificate but they did not. ( Here i wonder why)
Say if he does loose his nationality he wouldn't be stateless as he is a dual national.
But on the other hand the minister did not even reply to the letter and no explanation given whatsoever. Maybe because its not that easy to cancel someones passport who has a family and an irish born child unless the minister drags this person to the court in order to pursue the case further and subsequently cancel his nationality. Not sure what stopped them doing so.

I personally dont think its that easy to cancel someones nationality unless they are a threat to the state !!!

If marriages of convenience are not checked at the time of naturalisation or further residency permissions than they are checked at some stage for instance if the same person re- marry and apply their spousal visa on their behalf. At this stage previous marriages are checked.

Worst case scenario, if the minister does decides to cancel the passport of an indian who does not hold a second passport what if they leave the state and settle in any other member state before all this happens?
Stay strong & never Give up!

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Obie » Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:05 pm

Zerubbabel wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:34 pm
Very interesting case from the legal point of view.

If this gentleman keeps the Irish citizenship, it means anyone who can fraud his way through an Irish naturalisation, can keep it forever.

In other hand, as he lost his Indian citizenship, it will be very difficult for them to take away the Irish one.

I think the key here is that they did a very poor job in checking the application during the naturalisation process and they are trying to do a damage control now. More especially his move to forge his EEA sponsor tax documents was bold; suicidal really. Anything regarding taxes is kept on databases available to authorities. Just a single cross-check could've revealed the fraud.
One just need to be careful as the OP has denied he is guilty of what he has been accused of. Call me old fashion, but i believe that a person is entitled to due process and that the view of the executive is not always correct.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Obie » Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:09 pm

griffith wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:43 pm
The person who i am referring to is a Pakistan citizen holding dual irish nationality.
Minister provided evidence of his first wife's residence in Latvia while he had shown that she was exercising her treaty rights in Ireland with forged but registered jobs.
Clearly the minister had sufficient documents to revoke his naturalisation certificate but they did not. ( Here i wonder why)
Say if he does loose his nationality he wouldn't be stateless as he is a dual national.
But on the other hand the minister did not even reply to the letter and no explanation given whatsoever. Maybe because its not that easy to cancel someones passport who has a family and an irish born child unless the minister drags this person to the court in order to pursue the case further and subsequently cancel his nationality. Not sure what stopped them doing so.

I personally dont think its that easy to cancel someones nationality unless they are a threat to the state !!!

If marriages of convenience are not checked at the time of naturalisation or further residency permissions than they are checked at some stage for instance if the same person re- marry and apply their spousal visa on their behalf. At this stage previous marriages are checked.

Worst case scenario, if the minister does decides to cancel the passport of an indian who does not hold a second passport what if they leave the state and settle in any other member state before all this happens?
In cases of fraud it is easy to revoke Irish Citizens and the committee provided for under section 19, will have no difficulty so recommending.
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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by griffith » Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:13 pm

If it is that easy than how can they take a passport away from his irish born child ? Was it the babys fault that his dad contracted a marriage for residency? How can the minister cancel his passport and deport him back to his country of origin leaving his wife and son behind?

I understand that the committee can recommend revoking naturalisation application but Obie dont you think in certain cases its totally upto the discretion of the minister whether to consider the applicants current circumstances? (Remember in my previous post i wrote that the minister did not reply to the persons letter and he hasn't received anything to date, what stopped them doing so ?)
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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Obie » Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:24 pm

Every case is different. If they remove citizenship from parents then child simply did not have nationality, as nationality is provided in law.

The passport does not grant nationality, it is whether you meet the statutory condition for the automatic acquisition of citizens or you successfully natutalised that makes you one. The minister does not have discretion on who is automatically citizen at birth. The law provides for this.

Because they have not replied to your friend does not mean he is in the clear. They will usually write to say no further action will be taken.

With the new supreme court ruling, there will be an amendment to section 19, as it has been ruled unconstitutional.

The minister will be acting in contempt if it continues to issue revocation without amendments to section 19.
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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by Rupaireland » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:10 pm

Zerubbabel wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:26 pm
appeal letter
Did they revoke your citizenship already or are you fighting it?

Technically, you were illegally resident in Ireland before your naturalisation. As your EEA citizen left Ireland and wasn't exercising Treaty Rights, you had no ground to live in Ireland. But they missed that during your naturalisation application. I think it will be hard for them to fix it now and remove the already granted citizenship.

Did you give back your Indian passport?
Eu citizen left Ireland...
We had relationship she went her country to visit her parents then come back then goes . I also visited her country hundreds of time . she visited my family in my country . Relationship was perfect but she did not work here enough and she did not take any social welfare payments too.
they told me they will revoke my residency and then irish citizenship division may choose to review the circumstance of you naturalisation and will be notified of the change your immigration permission accordingly.

Your EU treaty rights applications is now closed.it is noted you were granted citizenship. in the event that you do not submit a request for a review of the decision to revoke your EU Fam residence cardwithin 21 days. your file will be refer to the relevent division and thereafter, all future correspondence should be sent in writting to Citizenship Division.

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Re: Irish Passport Revoke marriage of convenience

Post by griffith » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:57 pm

They are threatening. You do not have an Eufam so how can it be revoked?
May i ask you what are those marriage of convenience allegations from the minister? (They are not always right)
They will notify the citizenship division who will then decide your current circumstances. I dought so!!!!
Do you have a solicitor for your case?
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