E vetting and citizenship application

zoie777777 wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:19 pm

Mine applied 22nd july
Viewed 4th August.
Disclosed to me with NIL record on it.
No update so far preparing case for JR

Hi, bhai what happened. Have you sent any notice of JR to them yet or preparing ?

Courts are resuming this week so papers have gone to them by this Monday, it seems this is the only way. Will update soon I have something

zoie777777 wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:59 pm

Courts are resuming this week so papers have gone to them by this Monday, it seems this is the only way. Will update soon I have something

Yeah courts are reopening for their routine hearings. But I asked have you sent JR notice to dept yet or preparing to file JR in High Court ?

I have received the e-vetting letter on 4th October dated 1st October. Signed and sent back same day.
Applied in May 2018 (Stamp 1 and Stamp 4 non-EU). Second stage letter June 2018.
One thing I dont understand is why do they need to get consent? How were they doing vetting in the past? Were they asking for applicant's consent in the past? Besides, the e-vetting is meant to reduce the time needed to process the application whereas what it has done is increased more paperwork and added an unnecessary and stupid step in the middle. The whole system keeps getting stupider and dumber. Rant over.

faraan2 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:54 pm

Cmu 5

Any update brother?

Got the email for eVetting today. So basically 3 and a half years later, its I who will apply for my vetting. What a joke of a Service ... And these guys are get paid for such incompetence

pluto1992 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:55 pm

I have received the e-vetting letter on 4th October dated 1st October. Signed and sent back same day.
Applied in May 2018 (Stamp 1 and Stamp 4 non-EU). Second stage letter June 2018.
One thing I dont understand is why do they need to get consent? How were they doing vetting in the past? Were they asking for applicant's consent in the past? Besides, the e-vetting is meant to reduce the time needed to process the application whereas what it has done is increased more paperwork and added an unnecessary and stupid step in the middle. The whole system keeps getting stupider and dumber. Rant over.

pluto1992 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:55 pm

One thing I dont understand is why do they need to get consent? How were they doing vetting in the past? Were they asking for applicant's consent in the past?

Laws change and evolve. GDPR is doing everyone a favour here. Everyone needs consents to access a person’s details, regardless of whether it’s a government body or a private entity. Previously your personal data can be passed along in all governmental branches with very little restrictions. This is no longer the case. You have full control of your personal data, and anyone else who wants to access your data will need your permission to do so.

Yes it makes things slower (besides INIS has always been a mess), but it’s good in terms of personal privacy.

But does that mean that for example the INIS need to get data from any other organisation lets say Department of Social Protection, they will get separate consent ... Also if they need to ask a foreign body they will get separate consent? I dont think so. Bureaucracy will always convince politicians to find a way to justify their jobs, increase paperwork to prove they are inevitable for something that a computer application can do.

littlerr wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:32 pm

pluto1992 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:55 pm

One thing I dont understand is why do they need to get consent? How were they doing vetting in the past? Were they asking for applicant's consent in the past?

Laws change and evolve. GDPR is doing everyone a favour here. Everyone needs consents to access a person’s details, regardless of whether it’s a government body or a private entity. Previously your personal data can be passed along in all governmental branches with very little restrictions. This is no longer the case. You have full control of your personal data, and anyone else who wants to access your data will need your permission to do so.

Yes it makes things slower (besides INIS has always been a mess), but it’s good in terms of personal privacy.

Previously vetting request were individually completed by the Citizenship team in a paper form and were sent to the Garda Vetting unit, which then returned the reports to Department by post. From this year new adult applicants are asked to complete the form themselves in an electronic format. More information about e-vetting is provided here: https://vetting.garda.ie/Help/FAQ

pluto1992, In your case it is probably a routine check, since your application is already in the system for several years. They will be doing this vetting at least once for every year, until the decision is reached.

pluto1992 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:52 pm

But does that mean that for example the INIS need to get data from any other organisation lets say Department of Social Protection, they will get separate consent ... Also if they need to ask a foreign body they will get separate consent? I dont think so. Bureaucracy will always convince politicians to find a way to justify their jobs, increase paperwork to prove they are inevitable for something that a computer application can do.

Ok I know you are just venting your frustrations, but these are not bureaucracies. They help you protect your own privacy. And it's not that INIS wants to do it. I'd say they are going to be much happier if they can know every single detail of your privacy, if they are given the power to do it. They will be given a massive fine if they violate your privacy rights.

Let's answer your hypothetical questions anyway.

does that mean that for example the INIS need to get data from any other organisation lets say Department of Social Protection, they will get separate consent

If they need to review your *usage* of benefits, yes they will need to request for consent from you. But they don't do that. They couldn't care less about how much you have used and where you used it on.

They only ask you to declare whether you have used any social benefit and why you used them, which you need to declare under question 9.6. They are allowed to verify with Department of Social Protection whether what you have declared is correct. If DSP says what you have declared is wrong, then you are screwed (well not really, but they will send you a letter asking you why what you declared is different from what DSP has).

Also if they need to ask a foreign body they will get separate consent?

An official body has the right to confirm with the issuance body whether the issued document is genuine. That's about it. Note that a passport is not your property. It is usually the property of the ministry of state of your own country.

However, if for example INIS wants to know your foreign address, or how much you earn in a foreign country, the foreign body will not be allowed to disclose that without your consent. The only exception is under national security (e.g. if they have suspicion that you have conducted illegal activity in foreign countries, they may request help from the foreign authorities without letting you know), but that doesn't really happen to most people in the citizenship application. If you don't disclose a speeding offence you had in India for example, chances are that INIS will never know about it.

Yes I am venting frustration. The contempt I have for this department is immeasurable. And I do think that treatment of INIS towards future Irish citizens is appalling. And much of it is avoidable and can be mitigated by automating processes. Having said that I do find your explanation informative. Thanks. I dont agree with some of it but still its good to listen to others understanding. When I talk about bureaucracy I meant INIS and not the enforcement of GDPR legislations.
Coming back to consent, If what you are saying is correct, then for the majority of the applications there is literally nothing to process except the verification of your passport and birth certificate because no other data can be obtained without giving explicit consent. How can then there be 6000+ applications waiting for 3+ years if all what was required was to verify passport and birth cert which can be done through the embassy of the applicant's home country in Ireland? BTW, GDPR legislation was introduced years ago. The consent drama has just started a few months back. In my FOI there were 2 Garda Vetting reports from 2018 and 2020. If what you said is correct then the department's actions were unlawful in getting those reports without my consent.

pluto1992 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:56 pm

Coming back to consent, If what you are saying is correct, then for the majority of the applications there is literally nothing to process except the verification of your passport and birth certificate because no other data can be obtained without giving explicit consent.

Well you could say the same to a lot of things. IRP applications, employment permits, visa applications, green cards, marriage interviews... a lot of these things are just verifying that details. A UK short-visit visa application takes 3 weeks to go through your bank statements and holiday plans. A US spouse-based green card application takes almost 2 years. Decision making isn't as simple as verifying everything is genuine. There is a decision to be made at the end of it, and it is usually a big decision.

There are 3 main parts in an application:
(1) to check whether the patient's ID documents (passport, birth certificate, marriage certificate etc) are genuine. This requires contacts with foreign authorities and can be slow for certain countries. Certain countries where sham marriages are more prevalent would trigger a more precarious way of verifying relationship details.
(2) to check whether a person has actually satisfied the 3 or 5 year residence requirement.
(3) to determine whether the person is of good character.

Because of the ambiguity in the legislations, both requirements have been challenged numerous times in court. Some countries have an automated algorithm to evaluate whether a person has satisfied such requirements, but I don't suppose Ireland is one of them. INIS's system is ancient and manual, and is wide open to personal interpretation. This can become a big issue if a person is borderline acceptable (e.g. bank statement contains some but not too many daily transactions, or if a person had 2 or 3 speeding tickets). I don't know what they check but they sometimes do verify with different departments/providers to make sure that these bank statements/utility bills/employment details/tax letters are genuine.

Why it takes *that* long - I honestly don't know. It used to take 6 months for most people, but apparently this is no longer the case since COVID started. While COVID has certainly impacted their workload, it still doesn't make sense to have a huge backlog like what we currently have. Most other EU countries have a much faster way. Similarly, the first-time passport applications are extraordinarily slow (not just for naturalised citizens, but for all citizens). The government is certainly to blame as they treated the department as non-essential. I don't know if any other country in the world would treat passport issuance as non-essential.

pluto1992 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:56 pm

How can then there be 6000+ applications waiting for 3+ years if all what was required was to verify passport and birth cert which can be done through the embassy of the applicant's home country in Ireland?

You do know that some countries' embassies are *so* slow that people can't get anything from them for months if not years, and some countries require people to constantly chase them (which INIS will not do). Anyway, a lot of applications that got stuck are due to this.

pluto1992 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:56 pm

BTW, GDPR legislation was introduced years ago. The consent drama has just started a few months back. In my FOI there were 2 Garda Vetting reports from 2018 and 2020. If what you said is correct then the department's actions were unlawful in getting those reports without my consent.

GDPR is too new to be fully enforced. There just aren't that many court cases in any EU country for it to be properly interpreted. That's why you are seeing more and more red tapes in your daily life (e.g. surfing internet, signing up a new service etc) since late 2019, even though GDPR was implemented in 2016.

Besides, I wouldn't say it's 'unlawful', as they did point out on the form somewhere that they would verify details with Garda. However, it is not explicit enough: It didn't say what data would be collected; it didn't say how long the data is going to be kept for; it didn't say who the data can be shared with; it didn't say how long the data is valid for... These are all the things that can be resolved via this e-vetting as it provides more flexibility to file data access requests. I expect these verbiages will still change, depending on outcomes of GDPR lawsuits elsewhere.

littlerr wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:32 pm

pluto1992 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:55 pm

One thing I dont understand is why do they need to get consent? How were they doing vetting in the past? Were they asking for applicant's consent in the past?

Laws change and evolve. GDPR is doing everyone a favour here. Everyone needs consents to access a person’s details, regardless of whether it’s a government body or a private entity. Previously your personal data can be passed along in all governmental branches with very little restrictions. This is no longer the case. You have full control of your personal data, and anyone else who wants to access your data will need your permission to do so.

Yes it makes things slower (besides INIS has always been a mess), but it’s good in terms of personal privacy.

Is that mean that anyone submits his application before 2021 need to send this consent??

I submitted my application in 2020 so I didn't have to sign anything related to e-vetting, If the law has changed, would that mean I should voluntarily sign a form to give INIS that permission?

Or I should wait for years until they release that I need to give them access?

Hi guys I'm hoping someone can help from their experience, I did the e Garda vetting, when I track my vetting, it says disclosure viewed a few days ago. My question is how do I view the disclosure? To see what's on it, if anything? I don't see any option to view it. Those who have viewed their disclosure, how did you do it? Thank you

No you dont have to sign anything until the department send you a letter with a form NVB1 or 2 to fill in and send back to them.

Moh25ah wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:43 am

Is that mean that anyone submits his application before 2021 need to send this consent??

I submitted my application in 2020 so I didn't have to sign anything related to e-vetting, If the law has changed, would that mean I should voluntarily sign a form to give INIS that permission?

Or I should wait for years until they release that I need to give them access?

There are many applications that has been done evetting months ago which is supposedly final stage before decision and still pending.
My disclosure has been viewed in June 2021 and still pending .
They want another 12 week to submit to the minister which is totally copy paste and reason for another delay to the last breath..

Smilemee wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:58 pm

There are many applications that has been done evetting months ago which is supposedly final stage before decision and still pending.
My disclosure has been viewed in June 2021 and still pending .
They want another 12 week to submit to the minister which is totally copy paste and reason for another delay to the last breath..

Were you able to view a copy of your disclosure?

Sandy94 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:14 pm

Smilemee wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:58 pm

There are many applications that has been done evetting months ago which is supposedly final stage before decision and still pending.
My disclosure has been viewed in June 2021 and still pending .
They want another 12 week to submit to the minister which is totally copy paste and reason for another delay to the last breath..

Were you able to view a copy of your disclosure?

No .. its sent to Dept of Justice

You are not able to view the disclosure itself, but you can request for a copy from Garda under FOI regulations. It’s good to request a copy every few years just so that you know what records they have on you.

littlerr wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:27 am

You are not able to view the disclosure itself, but you can request for a copy from Garda under FOI regulations. It’s good to request a copy every few years just so that you know what records they have on you.

Oh ok thank you very much

Smilemee wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:31 am

zoie777777 wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:59 pm

Courts are resuming this week so papers have gone to them by this Monday, it seems this is the only way. Will update soon I have something

Yeah courts are reopening for their routine hearings. But I asked have you sent JR notice to dept yet or preparing to file JR in High Court ?

Yes case is in the court

zoie777777 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:43 pm

Smilemee wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:31 am

zoie777777 wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:59 pm

Courts are resuming this week so papers have gone to them by this Monday, it seems this is the only way. Will update soon I have something

Yeah courts are reopening for their routine hearings. But I asked have you sent JR notice to dept yet or preparing to file JR in High Court ?

Yes case is in the court

Best of luck brother .. I sent them JR notice and they promised to make a decision in 12 weeks .. God knows when

Smilemee please share timeline of your JR

zoie777777 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:41 pm

Smilemee please share timeline of your JR

Brother I got my approval today ..
Applied in April 2019
Evetting disclosure In June 2021
JR notice sent on 1/1/21
Approval 12 Oct 2021
Certificate pending

I hope all the best for everyone one .. IA

many many congrats .....so you've got in 11 days after jr sent yeah? also please stay in touch on this we might need your advise as you are one step ahead of me