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RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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baqa
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RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by baqa » Fri May 20, 2022 8:14 am

Looks like as of this month the affidavit process is no longer going to be used - my 'proposal to grant' letter received a few days ago (17 May 2022) includes this language:
With the re-introduction of citizenship ceremonies the temporary process of swearing the oath of fidelity to the nation by means of a sworn affidavit will cease. This process was introduced to facilitate the continuation of the naturalisation process during the Covid 19 pandemic. Please note that if you do not complete the steps above in time to be invited to the June ceremony your application for naturalisation cannot be completed until the next ceremony which is planned for December 2022.
Leave it to the Irish government to arbitrarily remove an efficient process (which clearly was deemed legally sound for the past 2 years) in favor of making people wait an additional 1-6 months to complete their already 2 year long citizenship journey. Absolutely ridiculous.

There is no way it is in any way more "secure" or better to force the ceremony. At this point in the process, the person themselves has been vetted and it's a question of obtaining the oath - something which a sworn affidavit is fully capable of achieving. I can see no reason - other than some form of graft surrounding the ceremony - why this should not be made an optional thing where people can choose between the ceremony or affidavit.

Rant over. All the best to all those of you who now have to add up to 6 months to their wait.

mads32
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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by mads32 » Fri May 20, 2022 9:01 am

Yeah, it's a stupid decision. Another negative is now you gonna have loads of people applying for a passport at the same time just after the decision, clogging an already really inefficient system. With the approvals by post you could spread them throughout the months.

avta
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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by avta » Fri May 20, 2022 9:39 am

Hey,
Unfortunately this was predictable that temporary process will end. The government was not ready to change the law. They only agreed for temporary solution. The only question now is why the department schedule only two ceremony for this year. I think it should be at least 4 or 5 based on previous figures. I can't understand their decision to have only 2 ceremony.

baqa
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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by baqa » Fri May 20, 2022 10:07 am

avta wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 9:39 am
Hey,
Unfortunately this was predictable that temporary process will end. The government was not ready to change the law. They only agreed for temporary solution. The only question now is why the department schedule only two ceremony for this year. I think it should be at least 4 or 5 based on previous figures. I can't understand their decision to have only 2 ceremony.
Predictable idiocy, yes indeed - I'm not shocked this happened. However, I don't think it's correct to say "the government was not ready to change the law" - no change in law is needed. The law provides for:
...before a judge of the District Court in open court, in a citizenship ceremony or in such manner as the Minister, for special reasons, allows...
Special reasons is not defined, and could just as easily be justified via the unreasonable delays currently being experienced, with citizenship or even with obtaining a first time passport. In this the Minister has the latitude to define how the declaration happens (hence why no change in law was needed to use the affidavit process the past 2 years).

So then it becomes a question of - why exactly does this solution need to end? I'm not sure where it falls between corruption or incompetence, or some combination thereof...

littlerr
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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by littlerr » Fri May 20, 2022 11:29 am

As others have said, it was a temporary measurement. The government doesn't like the concept of 'remote working' even though they themselves are promoting it :)

The term 'special reason' should not be abused. If all COVID restrictions are gone, there is no reason to still use that.

It's also a way of promoting tourism in the west coast. It forces you to take a day or two off, properly prepare for it, and make the day special. Many people don't like it. But equally many people do. I don't like it. My missus just had an eye surgery the day before and my choice is either to take a blind person with me for an 9-hour round trip, or wait for the next one.

Before the introduction of the ceremony, people just go to their own district court and make your declaration. It was kind of a joke and unpleasant in front of a bunch of police, suspects and criminals waiting to have their cases heard.

mentalmind
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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by mentalmind » Fri May 20, 2022 11:34 am

I think the main issue here is the waiting time between ceremonies. Having it every 6 months (for 2022 at least) is too long waiting time for many people. Not sure how often other countries have naturalization ceremonies, maybe having it every quarter would be better? But we have no say about it anyways.

baqa
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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by baqa » Fri May 20, 2022 2:46 pm

There are many issues which provide "reason to still use that":

1) The wait time of 6 months (or 5, or 4, or 3...ultimately, it's an arbitrary wait of any length)
2) The cyclical influx of new passport applications in an already strained system
3) Forcing people to take a day off of work, which is an economic hardship
4) Hosting them in the middle of nowhere, which is a hardship for people who rely on public transportation

I'm all for keeping the ceremonies and making them optional. Making them required is unnecessary.

I'm not one to just accept "the way things are" as the way things must be. I prefer to ask why things must be the way they are. But, to each their own!

avta
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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by avta » Fri May 20, 2022 3:56 pm

Hey,

This comfortable offline citizenship process was clearly described as temporary due to COVID.
It was passed Dáil legalization as far as I know, so it wasn't just a Minister's decision based on existing law.

I agree that it is more modern and comfortable for many people and reasons.
I think the best idea would be an offer to choose the way in the approval letter.

But to realize this need to start some petition campaign and then pass it to TDs.

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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by Vorona » Fri May 20, 2022 4:49 pm

It is a special moment, and must be celebrated. Wish I had a full official ceremony like that instead of a virtual one. Put on your best clothes, and go socialise with people from all over the world during this special event. Well done to the Government for bringing ceremonies back. The only thing is it would have been better if the cost of the certificate was reduced for applicant who went through affidavit system like myself.
Last edited by Vorona on Fri May 20, 2022 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

yorkshire_lad
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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by yorkshire_lad » Fri May 20, 2022 4:49 pm

The Gleneagle INEC Arena Killarney can only accommodate around 5.5k people roughly. Two ceremonies a year means only 11k naturalizations per year. and with a backlog of 25k naturalization application pending with the department currently, it'll take over 2 years to fully process these applications.

Ridiculous!!!!!!!

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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by toby2020 » Fri May 20, 2022 5:15 pm

if applying for citizenship from uk or Northern Ireland do you have to attend the ceremony?

raja.brit
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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by raja.brit » Fri May 20, 2022 7:47 pm

yorkshire_lad wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 4:49 pm
The Gleneagle INEC Arena Killarney can only accommodate around 5.5k people roughly. Two ceremonies a year means only 11k naturalizations per year. and with a backlog of 25k naturalization application pending with the department currently, it'll take over 2 years to fully process these applications.

Ridiculous!!!!!!!
As I stated in the past, Ceremony is great.

But they need to benchmark UK system for ceremonies where they not only have frequently ceremonies in every local City Council Offices but also a private ceremony option for a fee.

I think with the current backlog and upcoming approvals, they need to rethink the options.

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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by juanpurple » Sat May 21, 2022 4:14 pm

This way they don't need to find an excuse why the current arcaic process takes so long.

They just added at most 6 months while, at the same time, they expect to bring the whole process down to 6-9 months. Same will happen to the passport processing time, they are creating a huge bottleneck to an already slow and inefficient process. A retrograde decision.

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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by Lostboy2022 » Sat May 21, 2022 9:49 pm

I don't want to rant but disappointed with the decision of making people wait for another 6 months.

I'm sure ISD is dedicated and wants to reduce the number of applications in queue, I think people should reach out to TD's and request Minister to have another ceremony before December or continue current process of affidavit oath to clear the backlog.

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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by baqa » Sun May 22, 2022 5:32 am

Lostboy2022 wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 9:49 pm
I don't want to rant but disappointed with the decision of making people wait for another 6 months.

I'm sure ISD is dedicated and wants to reduce the number of applications in queue, I think people should reach out to TD's and request Minister to have another ceremony before December or continue current process of affidavit oath to clear the backlog.
Anyone know the magic formula for actually getting an answer from TDs? I've written to a few of them (some numerous times) over the past couple years (specifically about the illogical policy of requiring the completion of a parental naturalization process before allowing children to apply, rather than allowing simultaneous but dependent applications), called and left messages, but never received a single response...

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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by littlerr » Sun May 22, 2022 10:01 am

baqa wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 5:32 am
Lostboy2022 wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 9:49 pm
I don't want to rant but disappointed with the decision of making people wait for another 6 months.

I'm sure ISD is dedicated and wants to reduce the number of applications in queue, I think people should reach out to TD's and request Minister to have another ceremony before December or continue current process of affidavit oath to clear the backlog.
Anyone know the magic formula for actually getting an answer from TDs? I've written to a few of them (some numerous times) over the past couple years (specifically about the illogical policy of requiring the completion of a parental naturalization process before allowing children to apply, rather than allowing simultaneous but dependent applications), called and left messages, but never received a single response...
I’ve had to contact a few of my local TD’s in the past few years and have always received prompt responses. Using the oireachtas official email is sufficient. Government Ministers are more hit and miss though. Some TD’s would also prefer that you state and prove that you are the constituent from their area before they bother replying you back.

For example, if you want the ceremony approach to be deferred, contacting TD’s will not help. If you want to just say ‘I don’t like that ceremony approach. Change it back.’ They are probably unlikely to act or even respond. The consensus within the lower house is that all covid-related temporary measurements should now be removed, whether you like them or not.

A better way would be to do a petition (e.g. change.org). If you can convince a great number of applicants that the temporary measurements should not be removed, the Committee on Public Petitions will be forced to review the case and provide an assessment, and they will have to engage with the relevant government services to obtain a reply.

mentalmind
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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by mentalmind » Sun May 22, 2022 5:00 pm

littlerr wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 10:01 am
baqa wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 5:32 am
Lostboy2022 wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 9:49 pm
I don't want to rant but disappointed with the decision of making people wait for another 6 months.

I'm sure ISD is dedicated and wants to reduce the number of applications in queue, I think people should reach out to TD's and request Minister to have another ceremony before December or continue current process of affidavit oath to clear the backlog.
Anyone know the magic formula for actually getting an answer from TDs? I've written to a few of them (some numerous times) over the past couple years (specifically about the illogical policy of requiring the completion of a parental naturalization process before allowing children to apply, rather than allowing simultaneous but dependent applications), called and left messages, but never received a single response...
I’ve had to contact a few of my local TD’s in the past few years and have always received prompt responses. Using the oireachtas official email is sufficient. Government Ministers are more hit and miss though. Some TD’s would also prefer that you state and prove that you are the constituent from their area before they bother replying you back.

For example, if you want the ceremony approach to be deferred, contacting TD’s will not help. If you want to just say ‘I don’t like that ceremony approach. Change it back.’ They are probably unlikely to act or even respond. The consensus within the lower house is that all covid-related temporary measurements should now be removed, whether you like them or not.

A better way would be to do a petition (e.g. change.org). If you can convince a great number of applicants that the temporary measurements should not be removed, the Committee on Public Petitions will be forced to review the case and provide an assessment, and they will have to engage with the relevant government services to obtain a reply.
I will try to write to my local TD (never did before) about the acknowledgement letters still not being sent for some of the applicants in late 2021, and see if I can get a reply back from them. Will be interesting for sure.

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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by ailA2019 » Sun May 22, 2022 11:06 pm

It's a way of promoting tourism in the west coast whether you like them or not.

but the problem is if cases of monkeypox or even covid 19 have been detected, believed to be linked to citizenship ceremonies, that will be a big problem for the Department of Justice.

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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by punkGit81 » Mon May 23, 2022 10:03 am

A better way would be to do a petition (e.g. change.org). If you can convince a great number of applicants that the temporary measurements should not be removed, the Committee on Public Petitions will be forced to review the case and provide an assessment, and they will have to engage with the relevant government services to obtain a reply.
This seems like a good idea, and plenty of valid arguments have been provided in this thread. If no one says nothing, nothing will ever happen ...
Have a ceremony every 3 months in each province and I'm all in for this, but having 2 ceremonies per year in Kerry doesn't feel like the greatest céad míle fáilte to new citizens who have already waited years.

For those who say that they picked Kerry to promote tourism in the area, does Kerry really need that? It's already one of the most popular destinations in Ireland, and I'm pretty sure that most of the applicants have already visited at least once. I consider myself lucky as I live in Dublin, as there's even a daily bus to Killarney apparently, but for those without a car who are themselves in other corners of Ireland, getting to Killarney can be a major headache.

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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by nisi » Tue May 24, 2022 8:23 am

toby2020 wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 5:15 pm
if applying for citizenship from uk or Northern Ireland do you have to attend the ceremony?
There is no way to apply to naturalise as an Irish citizen from the UK outside Northern Ireland. I don't think they made any exception before for NI applicants, so I doubt they're doing this time around either.

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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by allthestages » Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:23 pm

Has anyone got an invitation for ceremony?

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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by CR001 » Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:30 pm

allthestages wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:23 pm
Has anyone got an invitation for ceremony?
There is an existing topic about this!!

ireland/has-anyone-received-an-invite-f ... l#p2073864
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Re: RIP Oath of Fidelity Affidavit Process

Post by baqa » Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:52 am

Wow, it just keeps getting "better"!

From the ceremony invitation:
Only one adult guest will be permitted to enter the venue with you using the enclosed ticket and they must be with you when you enter the Convention Centre. Please do not bring children to the citizenship ceremony.
So now we add to the already long list of issues with a mandatory ceremony the burden this puts on families who need to choose between securing some kind of child care (overnight, if traveling a long distance to Kerry) or their spouse not being able to join them for this event (an event so special, it must be mandated, according to some on this forum).

Cue the apologists now... "I don't have kids/don't like kids/don't like my own kids, and therefore my personal preferences means it's right that you still be required to attend the ceremony, even though you have to do it alone. Because it's so special that people should be forced to do it. Besides, it's required by law [note: it most certainly is not required by law]."

At least the upside here is I'll soon be able to vote against those who support this. My spouse, too - though not for another 6 months since they didn't make the cutoff for June's asinine ceremony.

[/rant]

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