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Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Only for UK Student Visas, formerly known as Tier 4 (General) student visa

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d71h8
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Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Post by d71h8 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:34 pm

Overview:
No one wants to sponsor me after my current graduate visa ends so I could only get another student visa. Doing another Master's would be repeating study at the same level, and my argument to convince university and Home Office that I satisfy academic progression would be:

Computer Science (MSc) and Mechanical Engineering (MSc) combined could enable future career in robotics (It is something I actually want to pursue.)


My questions:
  • Will "genuine student" and "academic progression" rules be problems for my visa? (please carefully consider my immigration history and relevant caseworker guidelines in this post).
  • Should I be applying for different courses such as different Master's and PHd just in case? But it will simply be too much hassle writting different personal statements and getting different references for different courses from my referees, my professors might doubt my intention with another course if I apply for both Master's and PHd.


Immigration History in UK:
Currently: Graduate Visa expiring at the end of 2023.
Past Visas: MSc (Mechanical Engineering), BEng (Mechanical Engineering), foundation and Alevels.
Time spent in UK: 11 years at the end of 2023 but will still be 1 year short of ILR due to once being out of country for 7 months.



Relevant rules found in caseworker guideline:

I. Genuine student rule (factors to be considered).

The immigration history of the applicant and any dependant, in the UK and other countries
Examples include:
  • previous visa applications for the UK and other countries, including reasons for any visa refusals.
  • the amount of time the applicant has spent in the UK or other countries onprevious visas, and for what purpose.
  • whether the applicant has complied with the terms of previous visas for the UK .

The applicant’s education history, study and post-study plans:
Examples include:
  • The amount of time that has elapsed since the applicant last studied, and whethe rthe applicant has sound reasons for returning to, or commencing, formal study ofthis subject, particularly after any significant gap.
  • Whether the applicant demonstrates sufficient commitment to the course.
  • Whether the course represents academic progression.
  • The credibility of the applicant’s rationale for, knowledge of, and research into theproposed course of study and the sponsoring institution.
  • The credibility of the applicant’s rationale for, knowledge of, and research intoliving arrangements in the UK.
  • How the circumstances of any dependant may affect the ability or motivation ofthe applicant to study.
  • The relevance of the course to post-study plans in the UK or overseas.
  • Whether the applicant intends to comply with the terms of their permission,including the requirement to leave the UK when their permission comes to an end(or, where lawful and appropriate, to apply to extend their permission under theStudent route or to switch to another immigration route) .

II. Academic progression requirement.

Study at the same level
If an applicant’s new course is at the same level as their previous course, it mayexceptionally be considered to meet the academic progression requirement if thecourse is at degree level or above, the sponsor teaching the course is an HEP with atrack record of compliance, and one of the following applies:
  • The new course is related to the previous course for which the student was givenpermission as a Student or Tier 4 leave (meaning that it is either connected to theprevious course, part of the same subject group, or involves deeperspecialisation)
  • The applicant’s career aspirations are supported if the new course is combineswith the previous course.

d71h8
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Re: Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Post by d71h8 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:18 pm

Bump.

And no, I'm not doing another degree just for the sake of staying in the UK for longer. I am planning to transit to robotics regardless my visa status, that's why I'm choosing a risky subject that isn't related to Mechanical Engineering instead of a "safer" choice to satisfy the academy progression requirement.

But I do benefit from extended visa to obtain ILR. One stone two birds I guess.


More keywords to attract search traffic to post: second Master's, another Master's.

sah10406
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Re: Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Post by sah10406 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:58 am

This is not a matter between you and a caseworker, but between you and your university. It is for them to decide whether to sponsor you for further study at the same level, in respect of academic progression and you being a genuine student. You need to discuss it with them.

When deciding, they will be using the Student route sponsor guidance, document 2, pages 32-38.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... r-guidance
I do not give immigration advice. I refer you to Immigration Rules, guidance, other online content and to your sponsor.

d71h8
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Re: Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Post by d71h8 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:41 am

sah10406 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:58 am
This is not a matter between you and a caseworker, but between you and your university. It is for them to decide whether to sponsor you for further study at the same level, in respect of academic progression and you being a genuine student. You need to discuss it with them.

When deciding, they will be using the Student route sponsor guidance, document 2, pages 32-38.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... r-guidance


Thank you for directing me to this document. According to page 37 on the document, it seems like they made it clear that UKVI will make the final call on whether same level study is justified, just that the university's explanation will make a big influence on UKVI's decision?


Page 37 5.43

In order to establish whether or not a student applying to study a course at the
same level meets this requirement, UKVI will take into account all relevant
factors
, including the following points. This is not an exhaustive list, and will
not be appropriate in every case:
• The level of the course.
• The subject matter of the new and previous courses.
• The applicant’s education history.
• The credibility of the applicant’s rationale for wishing to study the new
course.
• Whether the HEP sponsor with a track record of compliance sufficiently
explains why the student is applying to study a course at the same level



Also, under 5.46 on page 38, it's been stated that it is an exception for university to assign CAS for same level study, and it's also been stated that:


Page 38 5.46
"Abuse of this exception to the requirement to be moving up an academic level will be regarded as
immigration abuse and compliance action may be taken against the sponsor."

This might not be relevant to me, but what does it mean by "abuse of exception" to "move up academic level"?? Does it mean it would be considered abuse if the university is giving too many CAS to same level students so it benefits the university academically? Or the "abuse" is really just the number of CAS given to same level students?

Nonetheless, thank you very much, guess I should just make the applications and see what happens before worrying about what the caseworker would think.

sah10406
Diamond Member
Posts: 3599
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:09 am

Re: Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Post by sah10406 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:51 pm

d71h8 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:41 am
This might not be relevant to me, but what does it mean by "abuse of exception" to "move up academic level"?? Does it mean it would be considered abuse if the university is giving too many CAS to same level students so it benefits the university academically? Or the "abuse" is really just the number of CAS given to same level students?
It is not relevant to you.

For some reason, you appear to think that the university will have no common sense, experience or judgement when they are making sponsorship decisions, and that they will just hand out CASs willy-nilly with no regard for the merit of the application. On the contrary, Student route sponsors need to guard against refusals, because they can affect their sponsor status. University visa compliance teams tend to be extremely risk-averse. Many go so far as to ask you to show them in advance all the evidence that you need to include with your application, and ask you to consult with an international student adviser at the university over your application.

You can be sure that any decision to sponsor a student for study at the same level will have been considered very carefully and closely by the visa compliance team.
I do not give immigration advice. I refer you to Immigration Rules, guidance, other online content and to your sponsor.

d71h8
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Re: Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Post by d71h8 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:43 pm

sah10406 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:51 pm
d71h8 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:41 am
This might not be relevant to me, but what does it mean by "abuse of exception" to "move up academic level"?? Does it mean it would be considered abuse if the university is giving too many CAS to same level students so it benefits the university academically? Or the "abuse" is really just the number of CAS given to same level students?
For some reason, you appear to think that the university will have no common sense, experience or judgement when they are making sponsorship decisions, and that they will just hand out CASs willy-nilly with no regard for the merit of the application.

Making this kind of assumption is pretty much accusing me for being ignorant, self-entitled and treating universities like idiots without any evidence. It is absolutely not true that I think of universities this way and it is very rude of you for telling me so without much to base on.

I felt that there would be big hurdles as I'm repeating study at the same level, so I came on here to ask whether it is indeed a problem by the means of explaining my situation as best as I could with factual information and quoting relevant guidelines. You directed me to a useful document, I asked more questions simply trying to make sure I understand everything on the document.

So I have no idea whatsoever where you get these impressions from. And no, I never thought that I could walk away easily with a CAS from university.

I have lost so much sleep over something that will have a drastic affect on my life, if I thought it would be this easy I wouldn't be putting so much effort on these posts asking genuine quesions.

sah10406
Diamond Member
Posts: 3599
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:09 am

Re: Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Post by sah10406 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:04 pm

d71h8 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:43 pm
Making this kind of assumption is pretty much accusing me for being ignorant, self-entitled and treating universities like idiots without any evidence.
Not at all. Quite the opposite in fact: you have got too far into the weeds of all the rules and guidance, mostly meant for the university, and you are now over-thinking everything. You do seem very anxious and jumpy about the matter, which appears to me to be unnecessary, and I was hoping to dispel that.
d71h8 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:43 pm
I have lost so much sleep over something that will have a drastic affect on my life, if I think it would be this easy I wouldn't be putting so much effort on these posts asking genuine quesions.
Again, I am trying to put your mind at rest by reassuring you that the university puts a lot of effort and thought into issuing CASs, especially where there is study at the same level. If they have concerns about your application meeting the relevant rules, they would not sponsor you. If they do sponsor you, they do the heavy lifting by looking at all the guidance and making the case to the Home Office on your behalf, via the CAS.
I do not give immigration advice. I refer you to Immigration Rules, guidance, other online content and to your sponsor.

lolo2
Senior Member
Posts: 617
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:14 pm
Venezuela

Re: Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Post by lolo2 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:08 pm

I will take this from your original query.
d71h8 wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:34 pm
Immigration History in UK:
Currently: Graduate Visa expiring at the end of 2023.
Past Visas: MSc (Mechanical Engineering), BEng (Mechanical Engineering), foundation and Alevels.
Time spent in UK: 11 years at the end of 2023 but will still be 1 year short of ILR due to once being out of country for 7 months.
I understand you have been unable to secure a sponsored position, but your visa will expire at the end of this year. Basically there is an entire year to find a position, anything can happen during this time.

On top of that, you have a degree (and a MSc) in probably one of the most demanded engineering fields in the UK, and apparently there are no enough qualified individuals to cover those positions (Mechanical engineers are in the shortage occupation list). It should not be too hard to find a sponsor even if you are freshly graduated.

If you have little relevant experience in the field, I would suggest try applying to those Graduate programmes. I have seen that some companies offer sponsorship at that level. But I would like to think that now you're taking advantage of the Graduate visa and you're working in a position relevant to your background.

If you feel that something else can be affecting your options, try to contact the careers adviser at your last university. This service is usually available for some time after graduation and it can be helpful on providing guidance on how you can improve your chances to get a job.

d71h8
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Re: Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Post by d71h8 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:38 pm

sah10406 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:04 pm
d71h8 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:43 pm
Making this kind of assumption is pretty much accusing me for being ignorant, self-entitled and treating universities like idiots without any evidence.
Not at all. Quite the opposite in fact: you have got too far into the weeds of all the rules and guidance, mostly meant for the university, and you are now over-thinking everything. You do seem very anxious and jumpy about the matter, which appears to me to be unnecessary, and I was hoping to dispel that.
d71h8 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:43 pm
I have lost so much sleep over something that will have a drastic affect on my life, if I think it would be this easy I wouldn't be putting so much effort on these posts asking genuine quesions.
Again, I am trying to put your mind at rest by reassuring you that the university puts a lot of effort and thought into issuing CASs, especially where there is study at the same level. If they have concerns about your application meeting the relevant rules, they would not sponsor you. If they do sponsor you, they do the heavy lifting by looking at all the guidance and making the case to the Home Office on your behalf, via the CAS.
I see where you are coming from now and it very much makes sense. When you wrote that I think universities aren't quite incomptetant, I took it personally somehow and was reading everything else through coloured lenses.

I am sorry.

So what do you suggest I should do now? Should I contact universities first or just make the applications straight away and let them sort out the the visa? I have contacted the Computer Science department at few universities but they told me to contact the visa department or even UKVI. Just feel quite lost now really.

d71h8
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Re: Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Post by d71h8 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:15 pm

lolo2 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:08 pm
I will take this from your original query.
d71h8 wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:34 pm
Immigration History in UK:
Currently: Graduate Visa expiring at the end of 2023.
Past Visas: MSc (Mechanical Engineering), BEng (Mechanical Engineering), foundation and Alevels.
Time spent in UK: 11 years at the end of 2023 but will still be 1 year short of ILR due to once being out of country for 7 months.
I understand you have been unable to secure a sponsored position, but your visa will expire at the end of this year. Basically there is an entire year to find a position, anything can happen during this time.

On top of that, you have a degree (and a MSc) in probably one of the most demanded engineering fields in the UK, and apparently there are no enough qualified individuals to cover those positions (Mechanical engineers are in the shortage occupation list). It should not be too hard to find a sponsor even if you are freshly graduated.

If you have little relevant experience in the field, I would suggest try applying to those Graduate programmes. I have seen that some companies offer sponsorship at that level. But I would like to think that now you're taking advantage of the Graduate visa and you're working in a position relevant to your background.

If you feel that something else can be affecting your options, try to contact the careers adviser at your last university. This service is usually available for some time after graduation and it can be helpful on providing guidance on how you can improve your chances to get a job.

I applied for hundreds of positions, ranging from graduate engineer to drafter. All the companies that contacted me after giving in CVs are the ones with a sponsor license, and the very first question for me on the phone was always whether I need to be sponsored. And then they would drop the application before even giving me an interview, it's even been quite a few times where they explicitly explained to me that it's because they did not want to sponsor even though they have a license, I also explained to them I only need to be sponsored for one year.

The graduate programmes that would sponsor visas are very very very competetive. And I have read so many times that this country is in shortage of experienced engineers, not graduates. The market is saturated with graduates but they are still struggling to find good engineers.

Most of the lower positions I applied like drafter didn't even respond me and I highly suspect it's due to that they are not sponsors, so I have only got have entry level menial jobs, I know some people with graduate visa and they are also in similar situation, still working in restaurants 1+ year into this visa.

My job was basically wasting time so started learning something useful online: coding. I've grown to like it and it opens up more oppotunities especially the flexible working mode, hence why I got the idea that I should transition to specialise in robotics and then decided to pursue a master's conversion course to enable my career in this field, and also visa. But I now I got to worry about whether I will get this student visa.

Thanks for listening to my sob story. Guess I should've tried harder, it just sucks to have everything tied to a visa.

d71h8
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Re: Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Post by d71h8 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:50 pm

d71h8 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:38 pm
So what do you suggest I should do now? Should I contact universities first or just make the applications straight away and let them sort out the the visa?
Never mind me, just realised I had already sent emails to their visa departments and I have yet to receive a reply.

But I'm just going to make the applications and will hope for the best, cause it is apparent to myself now that I am worrying too much and it is not worth it.

Thank you for all your advice, they are very helpful.

lolo2
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Venezuela

Re: Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Post by lolo2 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:53 pm

d71h8 wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:34 pm
And I have read so many times that this country is in shortage of experienced engineers, not graduates.
This is partially true, the 'shortage' is at all levels. The experience is important and I know that there are many graduates out there, but the key thing here is to prepare your application to stand out from the others.

I had the same issue when I completed my degree in the UK. I sent between 15-20 applications every day for several months and struggled to secure a position for the same visa reasons, even having a number of years of relevant experience. Eventually I found a sponsor and got an offer.

Again, you still have time to do this, but it seems you have taken a decision and perhaps nobody else will change this.

sah10406
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Re: Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Post by sah10406 » Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:58 am

lolo2 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:08 pm
I understand you have been unable to secure a sponsored position, but your visa will expire at the end of this year. Basically there is an entire year to find a position, anything can happen during this time.
An entire year, plus another two years after that when you would benefit from the post-study "new entrant" provisions for a Skilled worker visa application made from your home country.

See Appendix Skilled Worker, paragraphs SW 12.1 to SW 12.7.
I do not give immigration advice. I refer you to Immigration Rules, guidance, other online content and to your sponsor.

d71h8
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Re: Computer Science (MSc) after Mechanical Engineering (MSc)?

Post by d71h8 » Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:29 pm

lolo2 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:53 pm
d71h8 wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:34 pm
And I have read so many times that this country is in shortage of experienced engineers, not graduates.


... Eventually I found a sponsor and got an offer.

... you still have time to do this, but it seems you have taken a decision and perhaps nobody else will change this.
Well your experience certainly is encouraging. I will get back to pursuing the skilled worker route with more polished applications as I don't want to be such a stubborn :o.

At the moment just let me finish my applications to the Master's before returning to job hunting again. Appreciate your input here.

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