Residence permit for my Spouse

rishi04 · Post by **rishi04** » Thu Mar 09, 2023 3:19 pm

Hello,

I am a European citizen, and my spouse is not European. We both have pre-settlement status but my spouse has a Tier 2 visa (or BRP) which is valid until Aug 2023 and their pre-settlement status is valid until Sep 2026. I don't need a visa as my European passport is enough. However, they need a visa/BRP for travelling. How they can get the updated or new VISA/BRP which will be valid after Aug 2023?

Thank you.

meself2 · Post by **meself2** » Thu Mar 09, 2023 5:55 pm

https://www.gov.uk/uk-residence-card

If you’re not from the EU, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein
If your residence card is expired, lost or stolen, you need to get an EU Settlement Scheme BRC to re-enter the UK before you travel abroad.

Apply via the link there?

Also by 2025 UK should scrap BRPs anyway.

kamoe · Post by **kamoe** » Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:05 pm

rishi04 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 09, 2023 3:19 pm
We both have pre-settlement status but my spouse has a Tier 2 visa (or BRP) which is valid until Aug 2023 and their pre-settlement status is valid until Sep 2026.

As far as I understand, this is not possible. Under UK immigration rules, one can only have one permit or visa at the same time. Your spouse has either pre-settled status OR they have a Tier 2 visa, but they can't have both. Whichever was granted last would erase the former.

Have you try to verify their status online? (to double check it is still valid?).

From the way you word your question it seems you are mixing up the Tier 2 visa with the BRP. They are not the same thing, The visa is a permission to live and work, the BRP is a physical card that proves that permission. It's important to understand the difference, because your spouse might still have a physical card, but the actual permission might have been curtailed when obtaining pre-settled status (no matter what the card says).

Key question for you is, which one, pre-settled or Tier 2, did they get first? Timeline?

I don't need a visa as my European passport is enough.

I'm just going to correct slightly the language here to clarify this for anyone reading. As a EU national, you DO need a visa, or settled or pre-settled status, which you have. Your passport is usually enough for traveling, but it is not enough to prove your right to rent or work. (I know it's not your actual question, but post-Brexit, saying that "an EU passport is enough" without clarifying a specific purpose, like traveling, can be very misleading).

However, they need a visa/BRP for traveling. How they can get the updated or new VISA/BRP which will be valid after Aug 2023?

Yes, non-EU nationals might require a physical document for traveling. For this reason, they are usually issued a physical BRC when applying for pre or settled status. When this application is done while the applicant already has a BRC or BRP, I understand a new card is NOT issued. Is this your spouse case? If so, then they are allowed to still use the old BRP card to travel.

Now, this is the important bit for travelling: As long as the old BRP is still showing a date of expiration in the future, that is usually accepted for travel. The airlines can't and won't verify if the Tier 2 is still valid. And on arrival in the UK, the immigration officer can check electronically the EUSS, if it is still valid.

Now, if your spouse would like to replace their card, for a card under that EUSS, and if they have a valid EUSS status, then they can apply for a new card using this link: https://visas-immigration.service.gov.u ... nt-service

There is a timeline post of people sharing their experiences of this process, here (however, it has gone very quiet now): eea-route-applications/change-brc-issue ... -1025.html

The other important bit is, obviously, to establish really, which one of the two, the Tier 2 or the Pre-Settled status, is the one still valid!!!

rishi04 · Post by **rishi04** » Thu Mar 09, 2023 8:57 pm

Thanks, Yes, I mixed Tier 2 and BRP. My spouse has a physical BRP card with a future expiry date (Aug 2023), which they got before their pre-settlement status. You nicely pointed out the case here. They will apply now for a new card under the EUSS; thanks for sharing the link.

For my case, when I said I don't need a visa, I meant in the context of the question i.e. for travelling. If someone from the EU is reading this, don't get confused, you may still need a visa, especially after Brexit.

rishi04 · Post by **rishi04** » Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:16 pm

Two more questions related to this:

1. To replace the card under EUSS, what is the correct option: 'To update, replace or transfer your BRP' or 'To update or replace your BRC'? I assume it's the first one, as they never had BRC.

2. My spouse told me they are also eligible to apply for ILR (https://www.gov.uk/indefinite-leave-to- ... itizenship.) as they meet the eligibility conditions. I guess they can apply via one route, either updating BRP under EUSS (BRP with a limited validity until the expiry date of pre-settlement status) or applying for ILR (without any expiry date). Did I mention it correctly, or is there any catch here?

meself2 · Post by **meself2** » Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:29 pm

1. To replace the card under EUSS, what is the correct option: 'To update, replace or transfer your BRP' or 'To update or replace your BRC'? I assume it's the first one, as they never had BRC.

Should be BRC. BRP is for visa nationals with leave not under EUSS. From the link you posted:

You can use this form to get a biometric residence card (BRC) if you are in the UK, you have been granted leave under the EU Settlement Scheme

rishi04 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:16 pm
2. My spouse told me they are also eligible to apply for ILR (https://www.gov.uk/indefinite-leave-to- ... itizenship.) as they meet the eligibility conditions. I guess they can apply via one route, either updating BRP under EUSS (BRP with a limited validity until the expiry date of pre-settlement status) or applying for ILR (without any expiry date). Did I mention it correctly, or is there any catch here?

According to what kamoe said above, you cannot have two different statuses at once, so it's either EUSS or Tier 2.
If they have Tier 2, they can apply for ILR (assuming they meet eligibility requirements and such). However, I don't think they would be able to apply for ILR if they're on EUSS, as EUSS has its own rules about getting indefinite leave (settled status, which is the same idea as ILR).

Kamoe will, hopefully, advise on that further.

rishi04 · Post by **rishi04** » Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:42 pm

meself2 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:29 pm

1. To replace the card under EUSS, what is the correct option: 'To update, replace or transfer your BRP' or 'To update or replace your BRC'? I assume it's the first one, as they never had BRC.
Should be BRC. BRP is for visa nationals with leave not under EUSS. From the link you posted:
You can use this form to get a biometric residence card (BRC) if you are in the UK, you have been granted leave under the EU Settlement Scheme

rishi04 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:16 pm
2. My spouse told me they are also eligible to apply for ILR (https://www.gov.uk/indefinite-leave-to- ... itizenship.) as they meet the eligibility conditions. I guess they can apply via one route, either updating BRP under EUSS (BRP with a limited validity until the expiry date of pre-settlement status) or applying for ILR (without any expiry date). Did I mention it correctly, or is there any catch here?

According to what kamoe said above, you cannot have two different statuses at once, so it's either EUSS or Tier 2.
If they have Tier 2, they can apply for ILR (assuming they meet eligibility requirements and such). However, I don't think they would be able to apply for ILR if they're on EUSS, as EUSS has its own rules about getting indefinite leave (settled status, which is the same idea as ILR).
Just to add to this, my spouse cannot apply for EU settled status because I myself did not spend continuous five years in the UK. Although, they are eligible for ILR.

Kamoe will, hopefully, advise on that further.

kamoe · Post by **kamoe** » Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:38 am

rishi04 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:16 pm
My spouse told me they are also eligible to apply for ILR (https://www.gov.uk/indefinite-leave-to- ... itizenship.) as they meet the eligibility conditions.

This is difficult to tell unless you share their full timeline. My guess is that, once again, and this is really important, if the pre-settled status was obtained after the Tier 2, then the Tier 2 has been curtailed in favour of the pre-settled status. If he Tier 2 has been curtailed, your spouse is not eligible for the 5-year route for ILR (As @meself2 says, they have to have a valid Tier 2 visa; and on top of that, there is no pre-settled status in the list below, so they could not count time on pre-Settled Status).

If you’ve had more than one visa
In the 5 years you’ve lived in the UK, you can include time you’ve had on any combination of the following visas:

any Tier 1 visa - except Tier 1 (Graduate Entrepreneur)
Skilled Worker or Tier 2 (General)
Scale-up Worker
T2 Minister of Religion or Tier 2 (Minister of Religion)
International Sportsperson, T2 Sportsperson or Tier 2 (Sportsperson)
Innovator
Global Talent
Representative of an Overseas Business

If they want a ILR, and their Tier 2 is no longer valid, then your spouse would only be eligible for the 10-year route, where time spent in any type of visa combinations count (including pre-settled status), which would be much less convenient than just waiting to qualify for Settled Status (which is free and has no salary requirements).

For the second time, what's their full timeline?

rishi04 · Post by **rishi04** » Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:44 pm

Hello, here is the full timeline

1. 26/1/2018 - Obtained BRP because of sponsorship from the employer
2. 21/10/2020 - Updated BRP because of the change of job (expiry 9/8/2023)
3. 7/9/2021 - Obtained pre-settlement status (expiry 8/9/2026)

As you mentioned, the old BRP is valid until the expiry date. They have used it for travelling (after getting pre-settlement status) to enter the UK.

kamoe · Post by **kamoe** » Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:44 pm

rishi04 wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:44 pm
1. 26/1/2018 - Obtained BRP Tier 2 because of sponsorship from the employer
2. 21/10/2020 - Updated BRP Tier 2 because of the change of job (expiry 9/8/2023)
3. 7/9/2021 - Obtained pre-settlement status (expiry 8/9/2026)

Once again, I urge you to be careful with the language you use. Your spouse was granted Tier 2 visas, NOT BRPs. The BRP is just the physical card that proves they have the visa. BRPs are issued for a variety of different visas, so the term you need to be using above is "Tier 2".

As you mentioned, the old BRP is valid until the expiry date. They have used it for travelling (after getting pre-settlement status) to enter the UK.

The sentence above is a correct example were you should use the term "BRP". In this context it makes sense, as you are talking about the document used for traveling, not the specific category of visa it proves.

I'm afraid that, had your spouse waited without switching to Pre-Settled Status, they would already be eligible for ILR, as of 26/1/2023. But now she's switched, I don't think she's eligible anymore. And the moment they switched, their clock was reset; to be eligible for Settled Status they need to complete 5 continuous years living in the UK as the spouse of a qualifying EU citizen.

So, the key question for you is: When did you get married? When did you move to the UK as a EU citizen?

rishi04 · Post by **rishi04** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 9:56 am

Hello,

I see, they didn't see this coming. I came to live in the UK in Oct 2018, and we married in Aug 2020. The only proof we lived together is from Oct 2019 (as joined utility bills). We lived together in a shared house between Oct 2018 and Oct 2019 but did not pay any bills. Does it mean my spouse has to wait until Oct 2024 to get settled status? Or can they get settled status if I can get settled status this year in Oct 2023 (also not sure if I will get settled status this year because I don't have proof)?

In addition, as their Tier 2 Visa will expire in Aug 2023, do they need to apply for a new visa via the pre-settlement route?

Thank you so much for all your answers.

kamoe · Post by **kamoe** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 9:46 pm

kamoe wrote: I came to live in the UK in Oct 2018, and we married in Aug 2020. The only proof we lived together is from Oct 2019 (as joined utility bills). We lived together in a shared house between Oct 2018 and Oct 2019 but did not pay any bills. Does it mean my spouse has to wait until Oct 2024 to get settled status?

Your spouse will be eligible to get settled status after completing 5 years as the family member of a EU citizen. The moment you got married your spouse became the family member of a EU citizen, so they will be clearly eligible for Settled Status on August 2025.

To be eligible before that, on the basis of a durable partnership prior to 2020, then you would need to prove that you cohabited AND held joint financial commitments for TWO years by the end of 2020 (which from your description, doesn't seem the case?). And even if you succeeded in proving this, the start of the family relationship as an unmarried durable partner would probably end up very near the actual wedding date, because it's at the end of the two years of cohabitation that you are considered "family", so 2018+2=2020.

Or can they get settled status if I can get settled status this year in Oct 2023 (also not sure if I will get settled status this year because I don't have proof)?

No. An EU citizen status DOES NOT automatically transfer to the non-EU spouse. Each person has to meet the requirements on their own.
To qualify for settled status,

EU nationals have to complete 5 years in the UK as an EU citizen;

non-EU nationals have to complete 5 years in the UK as the family member of a EU citizen.

As such, your clock starts in October 2018 (assuming that you were a EU citizen when you moved to the UK), and your spouse's clock starts in August 2020.

In addition, as their Tier 2 Visa will expire in Aug 2023

Once again, your spouse very likely* no longer has a Tier 2 visa.

I'm saying this for the third time: Your spouse's tier 2 visa was very likely* curtailed the moment they got pre-settled status, so very likely* it is not true that "their visa will expire in August 2023", because very likely* that visa is no longer valid as of today.

do they need to apply for a new visa via the pre-settlement route?

You are once again mixing up two very different things:

A. The legal permission to live and work in the UK. This can take the form of Pre-seltted status, a Tier 2 visa, and others. You cannot have two of these at the same time, and also, you do not need more than one of these at the same time. That is why I say your spouse's Tier 2 visa was very likely* curtailed the second their pre-Settled status was issued. Because under UK immigration rules, one cannot have more than one valid UK visa at any given time.

B. The plastic card that is issued to people who have been granted a legal permission to stay. This is called BRP (Biometric Residence Permit), or for EEA or EUSS routes, also BRC (Biometric Residence Card). But that's it. It's a plastic card. It shows you have the legal permission described above, but it's not the permission itself. The fact that your spouse has a physical card like these with an expiration date in the future DOES NOT mean that visa is still valid. Also, applying for a new plastic card does not mean either that they are applying for a new visa.

If what you mean to ask is how your spouse can obtain a new BRC given their current BRP will expire in August 2023, you were already given an answer to that vey early in this post. As I and @meself already said in my first answer to your question, your spouse can apply to get a new physical plastic card with expiration date beyond 2023 to prove her pre-settled status:

kamoe wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 09, 2023 3:19 pm

Now, if your spouse would like to replace their card, for a card under that EUSS, and if they have a valid EUSS status, then they can apply for a new card using this link: https://visas-immigration.service.gov.u ... nt-service

There is a timeline post of people sharing their experiences of this process, here (however, it has gone very quiet now): eea-route-applications/change-brc-issue ... -1025.html

The above does NOT mean your spouse will be applying for a new visa. This is simply the process of ordering a new plastic card (in the same way you replace your bank debit card when it expires, which does not mean you are opening a new bank account)!!!

In summary:

1. Your spouse already has a legal right to live and work in the UK, which is pre-settled status and which expires in 2026, so for the time being they don't need to be applying for any new visa.
3. If they did apply for a new visa, like Tier 2, then their pre-settled status would be very likely* cancelled, in the same way their Tier 2 was very likely* cancelled, because under UK immigration rules, one cannot have two UK visas/residence permits at the same time.
4. Your spouse can "order" a new plastic card to show for her pre-settled status, with expiration date of their pre-settled status (beyond 2023). This is NOT the same as applying for a new visa.
5. Your spouse's 5-year clock for ILR was very likely* wiped the moment they were issued pre-settled status, since you can't apply for ILR without a valid Tier 2 visa.
6. The good thing is, your partner's Settled Status clock starts from the wedding date (August 2020), not from the issuing of the pre-settled status (September 2021).

I hope that is now clear?

*IMPORTANT NOTE I do not have first-hand experience or heard accounts of Tier 2 visas getting cancelled after and due to obtaining pre-settled status, and that is the reason why I say "very likely" instead of "definitely" when referring to the curtailment of your spouse visa. I make these comments under the knowledge that under UK rules it is not possible to hold two different visas or residence permits at the same time.

rishi04 · Post by **rishi04** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:02 pm

Hello,

This makes it very clear. Thank you. Could you send me an official web link where I can find the information that my spouse has to prove that they have to live here for five continuous years as a family member of an EU citizen to apply for settled status?

meself2 · Post by **meself2** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:05 pm

rishi04 wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:02 pm
Hello,

This makes it very clear. Thank you. Could you send me an official web link where I can find the information that my spouse has to prove that they have to live here for five continuous years as a family member of an EU citizen to apply for settled status?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ookmark193

Under condition 3 in rule EU11 the applicant meets the eligibility requirements for indefinite leave to enter (ILE) or indefinite leave to remain (ILR) where you are satisfied that the applicant either:

is a relevant European Economic Area (EEA) citizen

is (or for the relevant period was) a family member of a relevant EEA citizen

[...]
And, in addition, both the following apply:

the applicant has completed a continuous qualifying period of 5 years in any (or any combination) of the above categories

Just so the terminology is clear:

The immigration status granted under the EU Settlement Scheme is either indefinite leave to enter (ILE) (where the application is made outside the UK) or indefinite leave to remain (ILR) (where the application is made within the UK) – also referred to for the purposes of the scheme as ‘settled status’

rishi04 · Post by **rishi04** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:00 pm

Thank you. The information on this page is helpful. One of the paragraphs says:

''An applicant can show cohabitation by evidence of shared living arrangements, such as mortgage agreements, tenancy arrangements or utility bills which show both partners living at the same address over the same period of time. Such evidence does not need to be in both names if it covers the same time period and the same address''

It means it is possible that my spouse can apply for the settled status after I get settled status in Oct 2023, and we provide a tenancy agreement and utility bills before our marriage (i.e. from Oct 2018 to Aug 2020). Does this make sense?

kamoe · Post by **kamoe** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:24 pm

rishi04 wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:00 pm
''An applicant can show cohabitation by evidence of shared living arrangements, such as mortgage agreements, tenancy arrangements or utility bills which show both partners living at the same address over the same period of time. Such evidence does not need to be in both names if it covers the same time period and the same address''

It means it is possible that my spouse can apply for the settled status after I get settled status in Oct 2023, and we provide a tenancy agreement and utility bills before our marriage (i.e. from Oct 2018 to Aug 2020). Does this make sense?

Even in the event you proved you cohabited and shared joint financial responsibilities for two years since 2018, that wouldn't move your spouse's start clock any earlier. Unmarried partner's clocks start on the date of issuance of first status under EEA or EUSS, not at the start of cohabitation period.

You can think of this as a "graduation" as family member. You wouldn't get a degree at the beginning of your study years, would you? You'd get it at the end, when you have done the time at University, AND have passed the exams. In the same way, as an unmarried partner, you don't get to be considered as a family member of a EU citizen when you first move in with them. You have to prove you have sticked with them for two years, and also, someone has to verify it. Therefore, only when all the proof has been validated by the Home Office, then you get your "degree" and your clock starts. Note that this means that the clock does not start on date of moving in together (date of admission), nor on date of application (date of final exams), but on date of issuing of the status (date of graduation), so it's a long way to go. That is why I would be extremely, extremely surprised if anyone could be instantly considered a family member on moving-in date. That would be akin to conferring a degree to someone who has just been admitted to Uni.

The unmarried partner route is not designed to move a clock backwards. It's useful for couples who have no other way of proving family relationship, and have no other legal document, and the resulting status ends up being the closest thing to a marriage certificate, with a clear issue date everyone can easily refer to to start the clock.

For married couples, there is already an official document that proves the family relationship (the marriage certificate), so in our metaphor, there is no need to "go to uni" and do the years to obtain a new "degree". They are instantly considered family members on marriage certificate date. In your case, this is 2020. That is why I was saying above, that it would end up the same for you, in both cases, unmarried or married, your clock starts in 2020 at the earliest.

The only way to move your partner's clock backwards, would be to travel back in time to 2015, move to the UK with them, then after two years of cohabitation apply as unmarried partner in 2017. Then wait 6 to 12 months for application outcome, and only then their clock would start in 2018...

Hope this makes sense.

rishi04 · Post by **rishi04** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:40 pm

Hello,

I called the home office. Long story short:

1. Tier 2 visa was cancelled as soon as they got their pre-settlement status. You mentioned this several times. This is the confirmation of your 'very likely' comment.
2. My spouse clock started when we started living together, i.e. from Oct 2018. I just can hope they will accept the tenancy agreement and joint utility bills in their settled status application after I get my settled status.

If I get any further updates, I will post them here. I never experienced this kind of immigration stuff before. But at least the next steps are clear now.

kamoe · Post by **kamoe** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:10 pm

rishi04 wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:40 pm
2. My spouse clock started when we started living together, i.e. from Oct 2018.

Take this with a pinch of salt. We've seen several examples of the EUSS helpline giving clearly wrong information to people, I would be really surprised if your spouse's clock truly started on moving-in date.

My guess is that whoever advised you at the EUSS contact line did not understand your question, and was simply referring to the beginning of the period of time you can claim that you were cohabiting in a relationship (in our university metaphor, the date you are admitted to university), instead of when the clock actually starts (graduation date). You can see these are very different things. Metaphorically speaking, Settled Status is akin to a very strict job advert, requiring a mandatory 5 years of relevant professional experience after graduation. In your case, your spouse has 3 years of relevant professional experience after graduation, and is seeking to have 2 years of student jobs forward-dated and considered as professional experience. (The metaphor is of course, not perfect, but I hope you see the problem).

I moved in with my partner in August 2013, and applied as unmarried partner in September 2015 based on two years of cohabitation. The application outcome came in February 2016, and that's when the clock started. Not in 2013, not in 2015, but in 2016. So in total, from moving-in date, the clock took two years plus 5 months of processing time of application to even start. I qualified for Settled Status in February 2021 (Feb 2016+5 years). I hope that gives you some perspective.

But do let us know the outcome. Curious to see how your case plays out.

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