NEW BILL

Jk2007 wrote:- Be prepared to live without NHS care (If basic medical care is withdrawn, how can someone with family survive here?)

Is that really planned? After all, everybody pays taxes and NI contributions, so everybody should also benefit from these.

- Do voluntary work / community services (This may become a problem unless clear objective measurement criteria and certifying authority are specified)

I am not objecting to the idea in principle, but how can you force someone to do voluntary work? Would that not be forced labour?

Only those who are desparate to stay in this country may be willing to undergo all these second class citizen treatment. Highly skilled and highly qualified migrants who are capable of getting better or same life elsewhere may think twice before continuing here, and may even leave the country.

Yes, this is a significant issue. At my university, we rely heavily on migrants for research, and this is just one of many change that will make it more difficult to find qualified researchers.

bototo wrote:Jk2007, I fail to comprehend your problem with the volunteering provisions. Learning the language, making friends here, contibuting to your local community and getting familiar with local customs should all be part of an immigrant's efforts even without any statutory incentives. I've helped at soup Spam, been a PTA committee member from the first day my first child started school and done other charity work. A lot of charity work can be done even from the comfort of your home! And we're talking just 12 hours a year! I'm sorry, I don't have sympathy for any immigrant who feels that this is too much .

Bototo, I think you have mistaken my point. I dont have any problem in doing voluntary work, I can spend even one day or more per month. John (moderator) has given a view, in this thread, that one can even do voluntary work during the weekend. Therefore no problems. All I am saying is that there should be clear defined rules here on the wordings required in the reference letter so that the caseworker can accept or reject the work. In the HSMP program before 2006, there was requirement to produce reference letter for experience for gaining points under experience. There was lot of confusion around the wordings required in the reference letter. For instance, it was not enough if the reference letter (for the experience) simply stated that the role you had so and so responsibilities, but should clearly state whether you carried out those responsibilities. Anything measured subjectively will have problems. If they merely stated that you should have spent 12 hours of voluntary work and if the reference letter stated 12 hours, will they accept or not? That is the question. On the otherhand, if they ask how this 12 hours contributed to the society, then this is subjective and the answer may vary from person to person.

Jk2007 wrote:Be prepared to live without NHS care (If basic medical care is withdrawn, how can someone with family survive here?)

Is that really planned? After all, everybody pays taxes and NI contributions, so everybody should also benefit from these.

No, it is not even being discussed. Let's not start rumours that are totally without substance.

John wrote:

Jk2007 wrote:Be prepared to live without NHS care (If basic medical care is withdrawn, how can someone with family survive here?)

Is that really planned? After all, everybody pays taxes and NI contributions, so everybody should also benefit from these.

No, it is not even being discussed. Let's not start rumours that are totally without substance.

John, this is what is stated on bbc website (15 January 2009):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7254926.stm

"...Migrants who are clearly settled but not naturalised currently have access to all main benefits, along with the right to send their children to school and use the NHS.

Other than schools, this picture may change dramatically. The new system proposes withholding a dozen key benefits to anyone who has not reached the final stage of citizenship or permanent foreign residency.

We don't know at this stage whether or not that will include access to some or all of the NHS - the Department of Health is separately reviewing foreign nationals' entitlement to the service..."

Jk2007, I understood your earlier post as conveying the sentiments that the equivalent of one whole day in the year was a bit much to ask. And that there is further time involved in finding charity work. It later appeared that you weren't aware of being able to do this work on weekends/evenings and when you discovered that your position seems to have mellowed.

My suggestion to immigrants like me is to not think of it in terms of something you are doing for somebody else. Do it for yourself. Volunteering makes you friends outside of your normal circle, builds you contacts and gives you a better appreciation of life. I don't believe in god but if you have a faith then, as most religions encourage helping your fellow man, I'm sure you get bonus points there too!

If you do the minimum 12 hours a year just to meet the requirements then, yes, there's the subjective issue. But genuinely try to make a difference and I doubt you'll have much trouble proving your contribution.

I am not objecting to the idea in principle, but how can you force someone to do voluntary work? Would that not be forced labour?

An oxymoron indeed. What would your suggestions be as tests of an immigrant's attempts to integrate and contribute?

Jk2007 wrote:The new bill says that after one year of probationary citizenship one can apply for citizenship. And those who want to take PR should spend 3 years of probationary citizenship.

Question: When probationary citizenship is issued, will it be issued for 3 years or issued for one year to be renewed annually?

As current ILR holders will be considered as PR, will they need to spend 3 years of probationary citizenship before citizenship application?

hsmporwp wrote: As current ILR holders will be considered as PR, will they need to spend 3 years of probationary citizenship before citizenship application?

Provisional citizenship is the next stage of temporary residence.
My understanding is if you already have ILR/PR, then you don't need to apply for provisional citizenship and you can directly apply for citizenship.

hsmporwp wrote:

Jk2007 wrote:The new bill says that after one year of probationary citizenship one can apply for citizenship. And those who want to take PR should spend 3 years of probationary citizenship.

Question: When probationary citizenship is issued, will it be issued for 3 years or issued for one year to be renewed annually?

As current ILR holders will be considered as PR, will they need to spend 3 years of probationary citizenship before citizenship application?

i dont think so that current ILR holder need to spend 3 year for BC if u read carefully under the new system if you dont want BC and you want to choose ILR/PR then you have to spend 3 year as a probationary citizenship actually policy is to force people choose BC insted ILR

Jk2007 wrote:

hsmporwp wrote: As current ILR holders will be considered as PR, will they need to spend 3 years of probationary citizenship before citizenship application?

Provisional citizenship is the next stage of temporary residence.
My understanding is if you already have ILR/PR, then you don't need to apply for provisional citizenship and you can directly apply for citizenship.

it seems like that jk2007 i agree with you becasue ILR is not a temporary residency ILR/PR Its a choice for those who dont want to lose their native country nationalities or passport (after probationary citizenship they can choose either PR/ILR or BC but longer time need to spend for ILR)

bototo wrote:JVolunteering makes you friends outside of your normal circle, builds you contacts and gives you a better appreciation of life. I don't believe in god but if you have a faith then, as most religions encourage helping your fellow man, I'm sure you get bonus points there too!

I agree, but making it compulsory depreciates it. Do you think you would feel the same about it if you felt compelled to do it, but otherwise have no inclination towards volunteering?

An oxymoron indeed. What would your suggestions be as tests of an immigrant's attempts to integrate and contribute?

I do not think that there is anything you can test based on written evidence only in a far away office. This may work for things like the life in the UK test - which is something I generally agree with.

If you absolutely want to include a formal requirement, I think it should be defined a lot wider. There are many ways to get involved with your local community, and volunteering is just one of them. You could share some responsibility at work, or get politically active. By widening the definition, it is more likely that applicants will find something they genuinely support.

rizwan_ali wrote: it seems like that jk2007 i agree with you becasue ILR is not a temporary residency ILR/PR Its a choice for those who dont want to lose their native country nationalities or passport (after probationary citizenship they can choose either PR/ILR or BC but longer time need to spend for ILR)

To make it clear,

Before the new rules come into force:

If you are a temporary resident, have already spent 5 years, then you can apply for PR/ILR now as the new rules have not come into force yet.

If you currently have ILR/PR, and have spent one year as ILR/PR or likely to complete 1 year as ILR/PR before the inroduction of new rules, then the new rules may not affect you. Better you apply for citizenship as soon as you complete one year as PR/ILR.

After the new rules come into force:

(1) If you are a temporary resident and complete 5 years of residency, if you want to become citizen (or) permanent resident ILR/PR, you have to apply for provisional citizenship.

(2) To become citizen, you need to spend a minimum of one year as provisional citizen. If you have voluntary service credits (12 hrs/year), then you are eligible for fast track citizenship after one year of provisional citizenship. If you fail to meet some criteria, your need to spend further period of upto two years as provisional citizenship before getting citizenship. So, it can take from 6 to 8 years of residence to become citizen.

(3) After becoming provisional citizen, if you intend to get ILR/PR rathar than citizenship, then you need to spend a minimum of three years as provisional citizen before you apply for settlement as ILR/PR.

JK2007, and what about people who get permanent residence under EEA law? When can they naturalize british? As there will be no probationary citizenship for them.

Jk2007 wrote:


If you currently have ILR/PR, the new rules may not affect you now. Better you apply for citizenship right away.

Aren't you too optimistic? Can you find reference in the new bill about this point?

Glauco wrote:JK2007, and what about people who get permanent residence under EEA law? When can they naturalize british? As there will be no probationary citizenship for them.

I think once you become PR/ILR, there is no question of provisional citizenship again. Provisional citizenship is like temporary residence, and as per the new rules, PR/ILR is the subsequent phase of provisional citizenship. So if you are able to get PR/ILR without becoming provisional citizen, then if you wish to become citizen, you need to make application for citizenship directly and not provisional citizenship, which otherwise will mean a step in the backward direction.

Under the current rules, you need to spend one year as PR/ILR before you can apply for citizenship.

After the new rules come into force, there appears to be no requirement to spend one year as PR/ILR before you can apply for citizenship. But the assumption here is candidates would have spent three years as provisional citizenship.

Unless they differentiate the PR/ILR visas of EU nationals and non-EU nationals, after the introduction of new rules, the EU nationals appear to have some advantage here, as they can change to citizenship from PR/ILR without any waiting period. Probably they will remove this anomoly, by simply creating a rule that for applying for citizenship, one must have had minimum six years of residency including one year as PR/ILR or provisional citizenship.

I agree that current ILR will be treated same as PR under the new bill and will remain their right. But about how can the PR holder apply for citizenship under new bill seems unclear.

In the news advertise on BIA web site about this new citizenship bill they said

"A bill to make newcomers to the UK earn the right to stay here, strengthen the border, and ensure we have a firm but fair immigration system was published in Parliament today."

http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... itizenship

Does it mean that this bill be applied only to the people coming to UK after this bill becomes law? Will the People already in the system be treated with old law or have transational aggangements equivalanet to old law?

yhdyhd wrote:I agree that current ILR will be treated same as PR under the new bill and will remain their right. But about how can the PR holder apply for citizenship under new bill seems unclear.

I agree with yhdyhd that it seems totally unclear how an ILR holder (PR holder with the new rules) can apply for citizenship...

If they classified the same way as PR then may be asked to wait further 3 years. However, as they were not provided an option of "probationary citizenship" one can argue that they should be able to apply after 12 months. Then again the clause about voluntary work may or may not be
required.

Do you think is there any way/people we can raise this question?

Will this bill effect people already on ILR

That is least is very clear. People already having ILR will be able to proceed to Citizenship under the existing rules, up to 12 months after the Bill becomes an Act.

Thank you the information is helpful and reassuring.
I should have had my ILR 1 year ago if the rules had not changed . I have been told on the sites like hsmp forum and ukba to write them a letter to get a back dated ILR signed.
Is there another option-to ring and get an appointment as i am due to apply for citizenship.
Or if some body has writtena letter and got a reply
Thank you

If you have not already done so you need to have a read of this UKBA webpage.

In the detail there you will see that, if you are within the scope of the affected group, you can apply for ILR, and then apply for your Naturalisation, any time from 12 months after you would have got your ILR had the Government not changed the rules.