Naturalisation Application for Student

My daughter arrived as a minor dependent with me in 2001. She subsequently studied at university in Ireland and is just completing her Masters Degree.

Time spent as a student normally does not count but I was once informed, by an officer in Burgh Street, Dublin that it would count once I was naturalised as she would then have "Irish Connections".

As I am now naturalised we intend to lodge her application.

Does anyone know whether the statement by the Burgh Street official is true?

What visa/permit did she have during this time? And what's her nationality?

She was on a student visa although for the first year she wasn't registered at university. They have no specific stamp for minor dependants. I know this normally doesn't count but I was told, by Burgh Street, that it would count once I (her father) was naturalised.

She is South African.

Why did she not arrive on the same visa as you? Or did you also have a student visa?

The Minister has scope to waive naturalisation rules on the basis of "Irish associations" but there is no guarantee it will be done. And I don't believe the policy instructions, if they even exist, are available publicly.

Does she have any other basis to remain in her own right?

Thanks for your assistance.

I arrived on foot of a work authorisation. She arrived as a dependent. At Dublin airport they had no stamp for minor dependent so stamped her in as a student. At that time it made no difference as time spent as a student counted then.

I only queried it when the law changed to exclude student time.

The system leaves a lot to be desired and is never thought through properly before being rushed into law.

There is no provision at all for grown up children, who studied in Ireland, of immigrants who have subsequently become Irish citizens.

If I were you I just apply on the basis of your child has Irish parent and see what next

What age was she when she arrived?
What age was she when you received your naturalisation?

Thanks for your assistance.

She was 17 when we arrived in Ireland.

She was 24 when I was naturalised.

duplicate post

As I am sure you are aware it is extremely difficult to secure naturalisation for dependants who are over 18 at the time of application. I will assume that you have been paying full fees for her from the time she arrived in Ireland, that is 2nd level, 3rd level and post graduate. I will also assume that you claimed her as a dependant for tax purposes. If this is the case, I believe, perhaps wrongly, that it will go in your favour. When you make the application provide evidence of the fees paid, this will provide proof that although she had been issued with a student visa she was here as your dependent since before she turned 18. It also proves that at no time were she or you a "burden on the State".

What I suggest you emphasis in the application is that although she is now over 18, she has been with you as a dependent since she was 17 years of age. It is one of these gray areas where there is an opportunity for discretion, I think the magic words will be "My daughter arrived as a minor dependent with me in 2001".

Best of luck and let us know how you get on.

The minister has discretion to waive the requirements for people who are of 'Irish Associations'. 'Irish Associations' is generally defined as someone who is related by blood or affinity to a person who is an Irish citizen. Based on this your daughter can apply, how they view these cases in reality is a different matter all together.

In my experience, in cases of requests for ministerial discretion for "Irish Associations" they firstly establish the validity of the Irish assocation. Next they review the individual and what he/she is likely to contribute or otherwise to Irish society. Where there is a possibility the the individual concerned will become an economic burden on the State the application will be rejected. In the case of an individual who is likely to contribute in some for example by bringing needed skills to the workplace they will look favourably on the application. They also look at how the individual will integrate into irish society, for example, can the applicant speak English? In fact there is talk of introducing an English language competency test for all applications for naturalisation. Any prior breach of the immigration rules or evidence of a criminal record by either the applicant or the person with which the applicant is claiming association will lead to rejection.

I firmly believe, based on the information you provided, that you have a strong case.

When does her current visa expire? What visa will she be on once she finishes her masters?

Thank you all for your very helpful input.

We used a lot of your suggestions in the application that was submitted yesterday.

She has visa validity until September 2009. After that she will be able to get a six month extension while seeking work. Following that she should be working in a position that would qualify for a work permit. In the current siituation that may be difficult.

Provided her application for naturalisation passes the first residency hurdle and is queued pleas for futher extension may be accepted.

Thanks again.

Lost Soul wrote:Thanks for your assistance.

I arrived on foot of a work authorisation. She arrived as a dependent. At Dublin airport they had no stamp for minor dependent so stamped her in as a student. At that time it made no difference as time spent as a student counted then.

I only queried it when the law changed to exclude student time.

The system leaves a lot to be desired and is never thought through properly before being rushed into law.

There is no provision at all for grown up children, who studied in Ireland, of immigrants who have subsequently become Irish citizens.

should the department/gnib have done that? ie give child a stamp 2 orone similar? as you are aware, holders of work permits then to be allowed to have their families with them

your daughter should apply for citizenship on basis of parent being irish. maybe wait for a few months (how long have you being a citizen)

jesus irish soccer teams under jack charlton had lads, who in no way one could believe were really irish, clinton morriss anyone? (the auld cockney only fools and horses (tv) kind of guy) they all got citizenship and playing due to irish grandparents

walrusgumble wrote: your daughter should apply for citizenship on basis of parent being irish. maybe wait for a few months (how long have you being a citizen)

jesus irish soccer teams under jack charlton had lads, who in no way one could believe were really irish, clinton morriss anyone? (the auld cockney only fools and horses (tv) kind of guy) they all got citizenship and playing due to irish grandparents

For citizenship by descent, parent must be an Irish citizen when the child is born.

JAJ wrote:

walrusgumble wrote: your daughter should apply for citizenship on basis of parent being irish. maybe wait for a few months (how long have you being a citizen)

jesus irish soccer teams under jack charlton had lads, who in no way one could believe were really irish, clinton morriss anyone? (the auld cockney only fools and horses (tv) kind of guy) they all got citizenship and playing due to irish grandparents

For citizenship by descent, parent must be an Irish citizen when the child is born.

There's a provision in the law that would allow this and it is called 'Irish Associations'. So it is correct to state that she should apply based on the fact that her parent is an Irish citizen.

Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1986

16.—The Minister may, in his absolute discretion, grant an application for a certificate of naturalisation in the following cases, although the conditions for naturalisation (or any of them) are not complied with:

( a ) where the applicant is of Irish descent or Irish associations;

Then in 2004, the term 'Irish Associations' were explained in the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 2004

‘‘(2) For the purposes of this section a person is of Irish
associations if—
(a) he or she is related by blood, affinity or adoption to a
person who is an Irish citizen or entitled to be an
Irish citizen, or
(b) he or she was related by blood, affinity or adoption to
a person who is deceased and who, at the time of his
or her death, was an Irish citizen or entitled to be an
Irish citizen.’’.

So from section 2 any person who is related by blood to an Irish Citizen is of Irish Associations. It is important to note here that Irish Citizen is not qualified by the statement 'must have been a citizen at the time of birth of the child' for example.

So in theory it should be straight forward, according to the law if you had a cousin who is a naturalised Irish citizen you could be considered to be of Irish Associations, and could apply for citizenship. I'm not sure how this law is implemented in reality though. I think having a parent who is a naturalised citizen is probably one of the stronger links. The key word here is ministerial discretion- you do not need to meet any of the requirements for naturalisation, as outlined in the law- however whether any sitting minister would be that generous is questionable. It would be interesting to challenge this in court eventually.

Thanks again for all the helpful replies.

We sent the application in on Tuesday and today received a reply, very quick three day turnaround.

They asked for a letter from my daughter's college to confirm her attendance and copies of my passport from the time of her arrival in Ireland to my naturalisation.

Seems positive. Will send it in and keep you informed.

Thanks again

Lost Soul wrote:Thanks again for all the helpful replies.

We sent the application in on Tuesday and today received a reply, very quick three day turnaround.

They asked for a letter from my daughter's college to confirm her attendance and copies of my passport from the time of her arrival in Ireland to my naturalisation.

Seems positive. Will send it in and keep you informed.

Thanks again

That is indeed positive, and provides hope for many people who are in a similar situation. Did you add a cover letter to her application? And did you add your certificate of naturalisation?

Our covering letter stated that she was applying on the basis of her "Irish Connections" and urged them to read all the documents attached.

My Certificate of Naturalisation was included.

I can't understand why they want copies of my passport as they would only prove that I was in Ireland. As I am naturalised that is obviously the case.

Ours not to reason why...

Not a big thing anyway.

We posted the application back on Tuesday together with the information requested.

Today we received confirmation that the application had been placed in the queue and been given a 68/*** number.

This seems to be confirmation that time spent in Ireland as a student is indeeed counted as qualifying once you prove Irish connections.

Good news!

Lost Soul wrote:We posted the application back on Tuesday together with the information requested.

Today we received confirmation that the application had been placed in the queue and been given a 68/*** number.

This seems to be confirmation that time spent in Ireland as a student is indeeed counted as qualifying once you prove Irish connections.

Good news!

Well thats good news! I wish her the best of luck and that her application will be approved. Keep us updated. I know of a couple of families who are in a similar position.

Lost Soul wrote:We posted the application back on Tuesday together with the information requested.

Today we received confirmation that the application had been placed in the queue and been given a 68/*** number.

This seems to be confirmation that time spent in Ireland as a student is indeeed counted as qualifying once you prove Irish connections.

Good news!

Sorry but...

If the Irish system is anything like the UK one, being placed in a queue isn't guarantee that your application will be successful. Maybe it just means that the application is valid - i.e. that you filled it in correctly and payment has gone through.

In the UK, you could still wait up to 4 months just to have your application rejected, even after receiving confirmation that your application is being looked at.

So, please don't get your hopes up too high just yet. Also, how long would the Irish naturalisation application take in this case?

Firstly you don't send any payment.

Secondly allocation of a 68 number indicates that residency requirements are met.

UK regulations and procedures are totally irrelevant and so is your experience in this regard.

The process will take two years.

Naturalisation section usually sends 2 letters when you apply. First one is just allocating you the 68 number and informing you that your application was received.
Then a few weeks later they would count the actual residency to see whether you qualify and issue you with another letter, which means that you are ok with your residency stamps, etc.
So it is still possible that you received just the first letter from the mentioned ones and the actual reckonable residence has not been counted yet and the application has not been fully examined yet.
Of course it may not be the case with you.