EU 1 Application

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:35 pm

Hi Ben,

If you view a resident card as a document confirming the Rights of a non-EEA national family member of EEA national right to reside in a member state under directive 2004/38EC etc. Therefore the Irish Government is not granting it, they are confirming it. In the UK it is clearly stated that one doesn't need to apply for resident card, to stay in the UK as family member of EEA national, although they noted it will be difficult to prove.

The right of family members exist from the day the EEA national starts exercising their treaty rights and not when the DOJ issue them with a resident card.

If you look at article 23, 24 and 25 of the directives, the rights are more clearly stated.

It is best Ben for us not to use the Irish definition as the benchmark.

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:54 pm

Ben,

The EU notified the Irish that the tear of sheet was incompatible with the directive "Article 10" which is why it was abolished and not because they wanted to provide an innovative and more professional service.

The DOJ don't do privileges were the EU treaty rights are concerned. Down to them, they will curtail the rights as hugely as possible. As is evident in Metock.

I don't and don't think you should for a minute think it is because they love non EU family member of EU citizens so much which is why they have gone through the hassle of typing a letter inviting them to register their presence with the Garda.

I think we have to be a bit more realistic.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:06 pm

Obie wrote:Hi Ben,

If you view a resident card as a document confirming the Rights of a non-EEA national family member of EEA national right to reside in a member state under directive 2004/38EC etc. Therefore the Irish Government is not granting it, they are confirming it.

Thanks Obie, I'm already quite aware of that.

Obie wrote:The right of family members exist from the day the EEA national starts exercising their treaty rights and not when the DOJ issue them with a resident card.

Again, correct - but the issuance of a document confirming these rights is not mandatory until 6 months from application of a Residence Card.

Obie wrote:If you look at article 23, 24 and 25 of the directives, the rights are more clearly stated.

Obie, you're missing the point.

Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 10(1) wrote:Issue of residence cards
1. The right of residence of family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member
State shall be evidenced by the issuing of a document called "Residence card of a family member of
a Union citizen" no later than six months from the date on which they submit the application. A
certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued immediately.

The "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" must be issued within 6 months of application. The certificate of application of the same must be issued immediately. The rights of the family member exist with or without either.

There is no right to a temporary residence card, valid for 6 months pending processing of the application for Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen. Such a document is not mentioned in the Directive. Ireland's issuance of a 6 month's Stamp 4 card is in addition to what they are obliged to do.

I should add that they previously issued Stamp 3. This is entirely wrong since it expressly forbids employment. I fought for them to stop issuing 6 months Stamp 3, and instead issue 6 months Stamp 4. In the end, this is what they did. However, I don't forget that they could have ceased the issuance of 6 months Stamp 3 and instead issued nothing - and they would have been within their rights to do so.

Obie wrote:It is best Ben for us not to use the Irish definition as the benchmark.

Were we doing so?

Obie wrote:The EU notified the Irish that the tear of sheet was incompatible with the directive "Article 10" which is why it was abolished and not because they wanted to provide an innovative and more professional service.

Do you have a source for this?

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:32 pm

Hi Ben,

I want to refer to the last paragraph of the advice you provided dar man on the 02/04 after her received a tear off slip from the DOJ, which was rejected by GNIB.

That advice you gave him seems to be in line with what i am saying in previous paragraph and also the subsequent apology he received from the department. You were well in line with Article 10 then.

Your current post seem contradictory to that i'm afraid.

Is it that your opinion has changed over the last two months

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:55 pm

You mean this post?:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 851#241851

benifa wrote:
dar_man wrote:Hello there.

First of all congratulations for the great site. Great help for lot's of people.

Now my question. I saw in few posts that after one applies for a resident card (Non-EU join EU spouse - EU1), he/she gets a certificate of application with which he/she can obtain GNIB card, work etc until the card itself is issued. What form this certificate has? Is it just the acknowledgement for receiving the application and the documents or something more "formal"???
It used to be a stamped tear-off slip (from page 3 of the EU1 form). However, in recent times, it is a letter addressed to the applicant that confirms receipt of the EU1 application, and invitation for the applicant to report to their local GNIB office to obtain a temporary Stamp 4 card, with 6 months validity (until approval of the EU1 application).

dar_man wrote:For those interested, here is my wife's story and why I'm asking:

She (non EU) joined me (EU) about a month ago with a "join spouse" 6 months Irish Visa. I live and work here in Ireland.

At the airport she was told that she must register with police within 3 months. Fair enough.
This is standard airport GNIB officer speil. In one ear and out the other, if you please.

dar_man wrote:We tried to apply for a PPS number for her (so she can get a bank account etc) and there she was told that first she needs to register with police (notice that this is not mentioned in the requirements for PPS!).
This is incorrect.

CitizensInformation.ie (Personal Public Service Number) wrote:In order to receive a number, you will need to fill out an application form and provide proof of your identity.

If you are Irish, you will need to produce the following documents:

* The long version of your birth certificate

And

* Photographic ID, such as your passport or driving licence

And

* Evidence of your address, such as a household bill in your name.

If you are not Irish, you will need to produce the following documents:

* Your passport or national identity card

Or

* Your Immigration Card

And

* Evidence of your address, such as a household bill (ESB, telephone, gas, etc.) in your name.

dar_man wrote:Anyway, she went to the local police station where she was told that she first needs to apply for a resident card. In addition, she was told (in an unreasonably impolite way): "Don't come back to us before you get your resident card!"
She first needs to apply for the Residence Card, using form EU1, then return to the GNIB office with her Certificate of Application. No excuse for the rudeness though.

dar_man wrote:She posted all the (original) documents for the resident card to the Irish Naturalization and Immigration Service about 20 days ago. They returned us most of the original documents (notably they kept the original wedding certificate - to be return when the procedure is completed)
Erm, how does the DoJ feel that intentionally withholding your marriage certificate is lawful? Demand it back - it's yours, and they've already had sight of it and opportunity to make a copy.

dar_man wrote:together with a stamped slip of paper (not much written on it) that was part of the application form.
Stamped slip of paper was the old way of issuing the Certificate of Application, referred to in the Directive. I'm surprised to hear they've gone back to doing that. My guess though, is that it's a mistake.

dar_man wrote:Will that slip of paper be enough to get the GNIB card, or should we wait for something more formal? We could ask the police here if they will be happy with it, but given the way that police spoke to my wife in the first time, she hesitates going back there "without her resident card".
Try it. If the GNIB do not accept the stamped slip of paper as a valid Certificate of Application, write to the DoJ informing them of the same. Demand a valid Certificate of Application described in Article 10(1) of Directive 2004/38/EC.

dar_man wrote:Thanks a lot...
Welcome. Do keep us informed.

If so, please explain how you feel anything I've said in this thread contradicts anything I said in that thread.

That is Obie, if you're not trolling. This is the second time in less than a week that you've been apparently scrutinising my posts to find fault.

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:20 pm

Ben,

It is best we leave the past in the past and don't dig it up.

I used that post as a reference to were i find that the tear of sheet was not a valid certificate and not to score a point or discredit you in any way, shape or form. I wouldn't have brought it up had you not requested.

Several adviser have informed me that it was put to the Irish that the tear of sheet does not conform to Article 10 as you stated rightly"demand a valid certificate of application". If i brought it up, it is to complement you and not to take a dig. I unfortunately cannot provide you with a documentary evidence as it is not available.

Last week post came to my attention as a result of another member expressing concern and not me setting out to catch you . Remember i was not the one that mentioned the statement that the gentleman brought up, that you subsequently made an apology for.

I am not going to indulge in childish and vindictive act by deliberately going through your post and picking up area i think you have made a mistake.

Please don't class me so low.

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:33 pm

iamanalien wrote:Is there a minumum limit.

Would working 10 hours for minimum wage be acceptable?

Following are some comments from the Danish immigration people about amount of working time.
http://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/faq/fami ... eu-law.htm

What is crucial is whether the person has had genuine and effective employment. The employment may not be of a purely marginal nature. Therefore, it is normally a condition that the relevant employment was for at least 10-12 hours a week.

There are also some interesting implications from the Metock judgment

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:37 pm

It's really quite simple Obie.

Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 10(1) requires that a certificate of application of a Residence Card of a Union citizen must be issued immediately. It is not stipulated in the Directive what form this certificate of application must take. Therefore, how can it be deemed inappropriate that the DoJ were issuing the stamped EU1 tear off slip? After all, it is a document confirming receipt of application.

"Several advisor" may have informed you that "it was put to the Irish that the tear of sheet does not conform to Article 10" - but I do not believe that this was the case.

What I believe, is that Ireland was informed by European Commission that the issuance of Stamp 3 to family members, for 6 months pending EU1 processing, was otherwise than accordance with the Directive (and of course, it is). A decision was then made to pull this practice, in favour of issuing Stamp 4 for 6 months. The stamping, tearing off and returning of the EU1 slip thus became redundant by default.

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:25 pm

Ben,

I agree with you 101%. I acquire tremendous knowledge when we have these debate and chat.

It was a great pleasure as always. Sorry for putting you through the trouble of explaining these basic fact again.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:34 pm

Obie wrote:Ben,

I agree with you 101%. I acquire tremendous knowledge when we have these debate and chat.

It was a great pleasure as always. Sorry for putting you through the trouble of explaining these basic fact again.

I agree with you 102%!

Same time tomorrow?

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:18 am

Obie wrote:If you view a resident card as a document confirming the Rights of a non-EEA national family member of EEA national right to reside in a member state under directive 2004/38EC etc. Therefore the Irish Government is not granting it, they are confirming it. In the UK it is clearly stated that one doesn't need to apply for resident card, to stay in the UK as family member of EEA national, although they noted it will be difficult to prove.

You can't use the UK (or the practice in any country) as an argument here. The reason why the application is optional here may be independent of the Directive (no compulsory ID for British citizens). The Directive, however, does explicitly allow member states to oblige anyone to register (see Article 8(1)).

iamanalien · Post by **iamanalien** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:20 pm

What is the the minimum duration, if any, that the eu citizen has to be employed at the time of the application?

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:22 pm

iamanalien wrote:What is the the minimum duration, if any, that the eu citizen has to be employed at the time of the application?

There is no minimum duration.

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:30 pm

iamanalien wrote:What is the the minimum duration, if any, that the eu citizen has to be employed at the time of the application?

There is no time limit that the EEA national has to be at work before an application can be submitted. So long as they are engaged in meaningful and genuine work. If they are unemployed they can still be considered as worker under EU law if they were working before they were made redundant or stopped working for other reasons such as illnesses(Eind Ruling against the Netherlands) or are actively seeking work with a realistic prospect of gaining a job within a specified period (6months).

There is usually a 3 months of grace, followed by another 3 months if they are seeking work and have a realistic prospect of gaining it.

iamanalien · Post by **iamanalien** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:52 pm

Thank you for your replies. Much appreciated.

Would the same reasoning apply to self employment ie. no minimum duration plus no specified income?

Thank you in advance.

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:01 pm

Hi Guys,

I need your advise on moving home.
The DOJ requested several document as a proof of resident when i submitted my application for Resident Card. One of them is a PRTB certificate which i am still waiting for as it usually takes about 13-15 weeks to process.

We have now got a more convenient apartment and was thinking whether i will be required to provide the same proof of accommodation or residents as before or whether they will just require the previous PRTB they requested, or whether just a change of address will suffice.

If my application is dependents on that PRTB will it not be problematic as my application will be due for decision before the PRTB for the new address arrives.

I haven't been able to get any advice from DOJ as they don't reply to email, telephones or letter.

Constructive advise will be welcomed

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:11 pm

Hi Guys,

I need your advise on moving home.
The DOJ requested several document as a proof of resident when i submitted my application for Resident Card. One of them is a PRTB certificate which i am still waiting for as it usually takes about 13-15 weeks to process.

We have now got a more convenient apartment and was thinking whether i will be required to provide the same proof of accommodation or residents as before or whether they will just require the previous PRTB they requested, or whether just a change of address will suffice.

If my application is dependents on that PRTB will it not be problematic as my application will be due for decision before the PRTB for the new address arrives.

I haven't been able to get any advice from DOJ as they don't reply to email, telephones or letter.

Constructive advise will be welcomed

Buzz · Post by **Buzz** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:55 pm

I'm applying for 4EU FAM residence card, My wife is self employed Sole trader she just started the business; event palnning. the business just started and not making much profit for now. do you think i can apply for resident card on this basis.
please advise.

Buzz · Post by **Buzz** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:27 pm

Hi,
I applied for eu1 application, and i have got temporary stamp 4. can i travel out of ireland and return with temp stamp 4.

Thanks

akwadaa · Post by **akwadaa** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:54 pm

Contrat Buzz...did they ask u for any additional document?? just wondering whether they asked u too for the PRTB letter??

thanks

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EU 1 Application